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-Loki- wrote:

There's no fluff about say, Black Crusades against a Hive Fleet, no Waaghs specifically against a hive fleet, no Tau expansions fighting them off, no Craftworlds plunging into a fight with a hive fleet, etc.

The Orks require a leader to unite under and then declare a Waagh! A Waagh! is unlikely to be oriented against a fleet of any sort - they go for planets. They're more than happy to fight Tyranids as they come across them, though. The Silent King of the Necrons is trying to unite the Necrons specifically against the Tyranids.Craftworlds do in actual fact going to battle against Hive Fleets - Malan'tai and a couple of others (one I think was Idharae? The one that later got taken out by the Invaders Chapter) allied against Hive Fleet Naga (I think it was that one) and wiped it out.

In all honesty, I'd say that the lack of coordination against them suggests that they're not about to consume the galaxy. Everyone can still afford to fight eachother and against the Tyranids because the Tyranids just aren't on the cusp of victory.

They avoid worlds not worth attacking

And yet they still attack worlds that result in their destruction. Ignoring their defeats, what's the worth of a Forgeworld? The biomass they gain will not replenish their losses. How much of a Craftworld can they actually consume? The Hive Mind really just wants to eat everything. It doesn't have some plan to ignore fortress worlds and just go for easy pickings. It attacks almost everything in its path.

There's an immensely powerful psychic human on Terra? They have their own immensely psychic creatures.

The Emperor's probably more powerful than any of the Tyranids (not counting the Hive Mind since I'm still not sure if that's actually supposed to be an entity).

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

considerable investments, not sure it's worth it cause every nid builds a tide. Not to mention it would take months to get to Terra which is incredibly adequate time for the mobilzation of the imperial forces of all branches needed to bleed the nids dry.

Just a small nitpick.

I believe that Hive fleet Leviathan is described as coming from "under" the galactic plane.

Theoretically, a large Hive fleet could "sneak up" on Terra. Unless however, the Ordo Xenos recognise the signs of the Narval's gravity well.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:
Just a small nitpick.

I believe that Hive fleet Leviathan is described as coming from "under" the galactic plane.

Theoretically, a large Hive fleet could "sneak up" on Terra. Unless however, the Ordo Xenos recognise the signs of the Narval's gravity well.

Iranna.

You are right, Leviathan is attacking from "below" rather then from side.
But I think that they already know that one tendril is going toward Terra, as Blood Angels know that the last one is going toward Baal.
But I am still waiting to see will they choose to oppose them on some world that is in their way or will they allow Tyranids to reach Sol and then blast it away with Sol Navy?

Brother Cia

Brother Coa wrote:

You are right, Leviathan is attacking from "below" rather then from side.
But I think that they already know that one tendril is going toward Terra, as Blood Angels know that the last one is going toward Baal.
But I am still waiting to see will they choose to oppose them on some world that is in their way or will they allow Tyranids to reach Sol and then blast it away with Sol Navy?

Brother Cia

Indeed. However, one would assume that the Hive Mind would commit an extremely large presence if it were ever to assault Terra, we're talking billions, possibly trillions, of Bio-ships. I don't even think the Sol navy could withstand it.

I love how your attempt to be facetious was sullied by your inability to spell your own username right.

Iranna.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:The Orks require a leader to unite under and then declare a Waagh! A Waagh! is unlikely to be oriented against a fleet of any sort - they go for planets. They're more than happy to fight Tyranids as they come across them, though. The Silent King of the Necrons is trying to unite the Necrons specifically against the Tyranids.Craftworlds do in actual fact going to battle against Hive Fleets - Malan'tai and a couple of others (one I think was Idharae? The one that later got taken out by the Invaders Chapter) allied against Hive Fleet Naga (I think it was that one) and wiped it out.

And yet, Malan'tai was wiped out. Losing a minor hive fleet isn't a blow to the Tyranids. Plenty arise even just from splinter fleets as well as new fleets arriving. The loss of an entire craftworld is huge, especially since Tyranids are fighting a war of attrition, which Eldar can't.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:In all honesty, I'd say that the lack of coordination against them suggests that they're not about to consume the galaxy. Everyone can still afford to fight eachother and against the Tyranids because the Tyranids just aren't on the cusp of victory.

No enemy is on the cusp of victory, but Tyranids ar ebetter placed than any besides Chaos. Tau are so tiny, on the galactic map they are a little 'you are here' arrow pointing to a tiny dot. Dark Eldar are basically just raiders. Eldar are scattered, few and shrinking. Necrons are waking up, and the Silent King is trying to rally them. Orks are very widespread, but lack focus.

Tyranids are here, focused, driven and single minded. After Orks, they're by far the most numerous alien race. Their defeats have been momentary - Behemoth and Kraken were simply broken into splinter fleets, the majority of Leviathan is still on the rampage and doing untold destruction (the loss of Gryphonne IV is a pretty severe blow). More and more planets are simply being subjected to Exterminatus or burned by the Eldar to simply deny biomass rather than actually try to defeat them. Then there's more actual new hive fleets arriving. Moloch is quite large - almost as big as Behemoth was, and emerging between Behemoth and Kraken, as well as other minor hive fleets like Scylla, Charybdis and others arriving.

They really are the 'Threat Without', the massive alien threat to accompany the 'Threat Within', Chaos.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:And yet they still attack worlds that result in their destruction. Ignoring their defeats, what's the worth of a Forgeworld? The biomass they gain will not replenish their losses. How much of a Craftworld can they actually consume? The Hive Mind really just wants to eat everything. It doesn't have some plan to ignore fortress worlds and just go for easy pickings. It attacks almost everything in its path.

Everyone loses a battle sometimes.

The biomass they gain very much replenishes their losses. I wish I could find it - there was an article GW did that was a magoc biologis talking about the amount of biomass stripped from a single planet being far more than a hive fleet could conceivably carry, and theorised is was sent back to a massively large hive fleet waiting outside the galaxy. Either way, stripping the biosphere of a planet far, far exceeds what they expend to take a world, and in the vicotries, they regain their dead as well.

What's the worth of a Forgeworld? Massive worth. Every Forgeworld holds secrets of technology on it knows, and the loss of an entire Forgeworld is a crippling blow. The loss of a habitable planet to the Imperium is a crippling blow - it represents thousands of years of colonisation and industry supplying the Imperium with resources that needs to be started all over again.

The Hive Mind definitely does ignore anything not worth investing in. Again, this is the entire point of vanguard organisms (Genestealers and Lictors). They send them out probe-droid like in every direction all the time. They land on planets, assess the planet, and send a psychic beacon out telling the Tyranid race what's there. They send a tendril out to have a crack at the planet. This is why they avoid Tomb worlds - they're generally barren deserts. No biosphere to harvest.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:The Emperor's probably more powerful than any of the Tyranids (not counting the Hive Mind since I'm still not sure if that's actually supposed to be an entity).

'Psychic entity'. It's basically the psychic footprint of the entire Tyranid race in the warp. Sure, the Emperor is massively powerful, but Tyranids draw their power from the hive mind, which itself is powerful enough to block the Astronomican. Tyrandis have massively powerful psychics covered.

Brother Coa wrote:

Iranna wrote:
Just a small nitpick.

I believe that Hive fleet Leviathan is described as coming from "under" the galactic plane.

Theoretically, a large Hive fleet could "sneak up" on Terra. Unless however, the Ordo Xenos recognise the signs of the Narval's gravity well.

Iranna.

You are right, Leviathan is attacking from "below" rather then from side.
But I think that they already know that one tendril is going toward Terra, as Blood Angels know that the last one is going toward Baal.
But I am still waiting to see will they choose to oppose them on some world that is in their way or will they allow Tyranids to reach Sol and then blast it away with Sol Navy?

Brother Cia

You misspelled your name.

Just wanted to point that out...............




....

Heres a pony.

I don't believe that they're going for Terra right away. Terra is undoubtedly one of their goals. But the Tyranids have time and again shown intelligent traits past the fluff. Going all-out on reckless behavior, i belive, the Hive Mind has learned NOT to repeat, as such actions has lost them great battles in the past.

If the Tyranids are to conquer the galaxy, their best bet is to continue what fluff suggests, that Leviathan is doing "as we speak": Collecting (and amassing) biomass.

Terra may be the most well-defended planet in the Galaxy. But it's only one planet amongst an unfathomable amount of planets. While focusing all your forces into a single large blow might win you an immediate victory, a prolonged resource gathering-strategy goes a longer way. They may lose a battle here and there from not focusing their strengths. But it's all while the rest of their army is getting stronger by each planet they encounter and consume.

I'm unsure if whether or not the Tyranids might gather enough biomass to launch a solid attack against Terra itself. But if they're victorious against the Orks, they'll emergy much more powerful than ever before (i think). If this would show eccifient enough to take on Terra, however, i strongly doubt. But if they (The Hive Mind) don't grow too arrogant or reckless, and keeps scattering the Tyranid forces to amass biomass, the threat keeps on growing, and they may eventually grow strong enough...

Iranna wrote:
I believe that Hive fleet Leviathan is described as coming from "under" the galactic plane.

Terra has planets 'below' and 'above' it on the galactic plane, and Tyranid Hive Fleets are much slower than the fleets of other (or at the least of the major) factions. There should easily be enough time to identify it.

Indeed. However, one would assume that the Hive Mind would commit an extremely large presence if it were ever to assault Terra, we're talking billions, possibly trillions, of Bio-ships. I don't even think the Sol navy could withstand it.

The Imperium would do the same though, and would be using some of the most destructive technology that it possesses (some of which the Tyranids won't have encountered (and as such adapted for) before).

-Loki- wrote:And yet, Malan'tai was wiped out. Losing a minor hive fleet isn't a blow to the Tyranids. Plenty arise even just from splinter fleets as well as new fleets arriving. The loss of an entire craftworld is huge, especially since Tyranids are fighting a war of attrition, which Eldar can't.

It still proves they go to battle against Hive Fleets. Hopefully, other Craftworlds will learn the lesson of defending the Infinity Circuit (seriously? One of the things most important to the Eldar and they choose to protect architecture before it and their ancestors' souls? They view a highly Psychic creature as less dangerous than Venomthropes and such? That background was atrocious) rather than their halls. What happened to the Warp Spiders, anyway? Oh well. How many 'minor' Hive Fleets are there? Half a dozen? The splinter fleets are presumably much smaller. I'd say it's still a blow.

No enemy is on the cusp of victory, but Tyranids ar ebetter placed than any besides Chaos. Tau are so tiny, on the galactic map they are a little 'you are here' arrow pointing to a tiny dot. Dark Eldar are basically just raiders. Eldar are scattered, few and shrinking. Necrons are waking up, and the Silent King is trying to rally them. Orks are very widespread, but lack focus.

I didn't say they weren't. But they're not about to upset the galactic order any more than the forces of Chaos do.

Their defeats have been momentary - Behemoth and Kraken were simply broken into splinter fleets, the majority of Leviathan is still on the rampage and doing untold destruction (the loss of Gryphonne IV is a pretty severe blow).

Much of those two fleets was destroyed. Not wholly, but they might never recover. Leviathan is busy doing various things and i'm not quite sure how much of it hit the Ork Empire.

More and more planets are simply being subjected to Exterminatus or burned by the Eldar to simply deny biomass rather than actually try to defeat them.

Not just to deny biomass. They generally wait for the Tyranids to lose as much of their force as possible taking the world and then exterminate it.

Then there's more actual new hive fleets arriving.

Yep. But we don't know how many. They may actually be losing this war with the Imperium (and the rest of the galaxy).

Everyone loses a battle sometimes.

Still proves that they attack worlds that aren't worth it.

I wish I could find it - there was an article GW did that was a magoc biologis talking about the amount of biomass stripped from a single planet being far more than a hive fleet could conceivably carry, and theorised is was sent back to a massively large hive fleet waiting outside the galaxy.

How would they send back that biomass. As far as I know, they can't Psychically transmit it and there's been nothing about them forming convoy lines so that Magos is probably wrong.

Every Forgeworld holds secrets of technology on it knows

It shouldn't do. All the technology is supposed to be sent to Mars. Although I'm not sure why the designs for the 'Vanquisher' cannon were lost if Mars has a copy.

Yes, losing Forgeworlds is damaging, but taking one does not provide much biomass.

The Hive Mind definitely does ignore anything not worth investing in. Again, this is the entire point of vanguard organisms (Genestealers and Lictors). They send them out probe-droid like in every direction all the time. They land on planets, assess the planet, and send a psychic beacon out telling the Tyranid race what's there. They send a tendril out to have a crack at the planet. This is why they avoid Tomb worlds - they're generally barren deserts. No biosphere to harvest.

Then why attack such heavily fortified planets that may well result in the destruction of the Hive Fleet? The Genestealers are a guide. I doubt they get to every single planet and breed in sufficient numbers before the Hive Mind comes. The Tomb worlds that were avoided were if I recall correctly avoided to a massive degree. It wasn't just course correction They were avoiding something. For the record, the Tomb worlds being safe from Tyranids no longer applies. One of the Necron Dynasties was devastated by Tyranid incursions (not sure why they went down to the actual Tomb though).

'Psychic entity'. It's basically the psychic footprint of the entire Tyranid race in the warp. Sure, the Emperor is massively powerful, but Tyranids draw their power from the hive mind, which itself is powerful enough to block the Astronomican. Tyrandis have massively powerful psychics covered.

Which is not a being. Isn't the Shadow in the Warp effectively generated by static? The communication of all the billions of Tyranid organisms?

Getting tired of seeing, we beat them at Macarage we will do it again. As it has been pointed out Terra has far more forces than the Ultramarine home world. So why would anyone, try to attack a world with the same sized force that was defeated on a world with a fraction of the first's defencive forces.

IF the nids attack Terra, its will have to be all out to even have a chance of success.

Problem: how are the tyranids going to get underneath terra without a worlds gravity well to manipulate to pull them into possition?

And why don't they attack from above as well?

I still believe it all comes down to how EAGER the Tyranids (or the Hive Mind if you prefer) are to consume Terra. It's far from unheard of, that the Tyranids are capable of adapting. And by now, it has been suggested that it is exactly what they're doing. They've tried all-out frontal attacks, and that didn't work. And as fluff suggests with Leviathan, the Tyranids are more carefully, systematically collecting biomass from far and wide.

By my logic, they don't really NEED to take on Terra. If they keep on invigorating their fleets, they'll become more and more capable of consuming larger prey.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Much of those two fleets was destroyed. Not wholly, but they might never recover.

Read the rulebook, the boxout 'the threat without' in the rulebook. It clarifies that only a few tendrils of Kraken and Behemoth were defeated, and the majority is still out there.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Not just to deny biomass. They generally wait for the Tyranids to lose as much of their force as possible taking the world and then exterminate it.

The 5th edition codex specifically states the Eldars method of bruning entire worlds is simply to deny biomass. It's a dumb tactic.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Yep. But we don't know how many. They may actually be losing this war with the Imperium (and the rest of the galaxy).

And the Imperium might not have the resources to counter another mojor hive fleet.

I can baselessly speculate too.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Still proves that they attack worlds that aren't worth it.

No, it just proves they can underestimate the defense of a planet and not commit enough.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:How would they send back that biomass. As far as I know, they can't Psychically transmit it and there's been nothing about them forming convoy lines so that Magos is probably wrong.

Hive ships arrive and drink up the harvested biomass through cappillary towers. There aren't enough storage hive ships that the Imperium has seen in a hive fleet to actually hold what is harvested from a single planet. The biomass is going somewhere.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:It shouldn't do. All the technology is supposed to be sent to Mars. Although I'm not sure why the designs for the 'Vanquisher' cannon were lost if Mars has a copy.

Not at all. Different Forgeworlds often hide secret designs even from Mars to ensure they are the only Forge that can make them. The Mechancus is just as fractured as the Imperium. There's like, 3 Forgeworlds that can make the Leman Russ Vanquisher. Gryphonne IV was one of them. Now there's one less.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Yes, losing Forgeworlds is damaging, but taking one does not provide much biomass.

Again, it hurts the Imperium in other ways. Plus, Forgeworlds are generall rich in minerals - Tyranids take those as well.

Which is not a being. Isn't the Shadow in the Warp effectively generated by static? The communication of all the billions of Tyranid organisms?

Entity is what is used to describe it. It is, however, sentient. it's a collective consiousness. It sits in the warp - proven by Tigerius being able to 'read' it. The Shadow is an even bigger warp disturbance generated by the hive mind.

Just because a forge world does not have lush jungles. Doesn't mean the Tyranid lose Bio mass. If the Tyranid take a planet they break even no matter what. All dead Tyranid are re-absorbed and made into Tyranid again.

Not to mention the eat the very atmosphere of planets as well. That is an unbelievable amount of resources in itself.

Iranna wrote:
Indeed. However, one would assume that the Hive Mind would commit an extremely large presence if it were ever to assault Terra, we're talking billions, possibly trillions, of Bio-ships. I don't even think the Sol navy could withstand it.

That is true, I would assume that then the IN woudl let them get close to the planet so that defensive platforms can shoot some of them down. And I am sure that Eldar will hep the Imperium, being that Altansar in already near Sol System an wait.

I love how your attempt to be facetious was sullied by your inability to spell your own username right.

Iranna.

That is because mt keyboard won't listen to me and because I type really fast and make mistakes. I am not trying to make fun of you but to support you, some people don't like the idea of singing your post so I am sinning to, to show my support.

Brother Coa





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alexzandvar wrote:

You misspelled your name.

Just wanted to point that out...............

Heres a pony.

I have eyes but thanks.
And I HATE pony's, they are servants of Slaanesh and must be exterminated.

Brother Coa wrote:You guys still debate this?

We already concluded this: only force in the galaxy that can take Terra down are Orks ( if they unite ) and Necrons ( if they unite to ), and even they would have big losses from witch they would need long time to recover.

We can't tell for sure how many Tyranids they are there. It can be their entire race coming, or it can be that LEvithian is the last Hive Fleet that will ever enter the galaxy ( I am talking about Levithian, Behemot and Kraken beign the "main body" of Tyranid race while all otehrs are splinters ). But as it is stated, Terra in not alone, entire Sol System is liek one big fortress. I can assume that PDF of Pluto ( in FW Intro we can see that Pluto is Hive World, same may go for Mercury and Saturn and Titan moons ) and other worlds in Sol System would send their force and naval forces to aid. Jupiter is one big shipyard, on Mars in the entire Mechanicus wit hit's Titan Legions etc...

Whoever attack Sol can only except defeat, even if they cut it off they will still have trouble defeating it.

Signal boost.

Brother Coas posts are always amusing. He's an Imperial propaganda machine.

Like all propaganda, read it for a laugh.

And then do the opposite, with a clear conscience

-Loki- wrote:
Except only the Imperium has taken any pro-active measures to actually combat them.

There's no fluff about say, Black Crusades against a Hive Fleet, no Waaghs specifically against a hive fleet, no Tau expansions fighting them off, no Craftworlds plunging into a fight with a hive fleet, etc. So far, Tau has only fought against them defensively after a hive fleet hit their empire, Chaos has pretty much ignored them, Orks are only in a war with them because an Inquisitor redirected a small part of Leviathan into a large Ork empire. Dark Eldar are just raiding them for meat for their arenas and experiments, and Necrons still aren't doing much of anything. The Eldar are using old technology to burn worlds to bare bedrock, which accomplishes nothing but biomass denial, and also denial of a habitable planet for themselves.

Guess what? The Tyranid codexes say the same thing. Tyranids are the enemy of everyone, this isn't anything new. It's only worth pointing out that the Tyranids are the enemy of everyone if everyone drops their current spats and does something about them. So far, only the Imperium and Eldar have taken an active stance on trying to halt them, and they aren't doing it very successfully.

Not quite true, actually. No, the Orks as a whole haven't taken any species-wide action against the Tyranids, but in the list of major Waaaghs in the Ork Codex, there IS actually one Waaagh launched directly in response to one of the Hive Fleets. I don't remember which one, sadly. . .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Just because a forge world does not have lush jungles. Doesn't mean the Tyranid lose Bio mass. If the Tyranid take a planet they break even no matter what. All dead Tyranid are re-absorbed and made into Tyranid again.

Not to mention the eat the very atmosphere of planets as well. That is an unbelievable amount of resources in itself.

Also, gotta point out that this isn't necessarily true.

An atmosphere is a lot of mass, yes, but it's incredibly diffuse. Just collecting it would take an incredible amount of effort, much, much more than collecting biomass in the form of animals and plants would. Collection, like everything, requires an expenditure of energy; and energy, in the final analysis, comes from mass. If the Tyranids fight a battle, win, and collect 100% of their dead, that does NOT mean they have broken even, because they've expended an enormous amount of energy getting there, launching the attack, and fighting the battle. That's GONE, and they aren't getting it back; fighting in space expends energy, and creating the invasion force expends energy, and processing the dead back into living creatures expends energy, and establishing digestion pools expends energy, and sucking up the atmosphere expends energy, and keeping the Ripper swarms alive while they eat everything afterwards expends energy, all of which is simply lost.

In order to break even on a planetary invasion, the Tyranids have to gain more from recycling their dead + consuming the biomass of the planet than they lose in the process of traveling there, fighting, replacing losses, and maintaining their creatures while they eat the world. For that matter, even some tactics that people claim don't hurt Tyranids actually do; burning the corpses after a battle, for instance, converts much of the mass of the body into particulate matter, making it more difficult and time-consuming to recycle. And, of course, if a hive fleet LOSES a battle that's 100% loss and they won't get any of it back.

In short, the Tyranids are not self-sustaining. They are as subject to entropy as everything is; they NEED to eat profitable planets continuously, not to expand but just to survive. If they don't attack planets often enough, or if they pick the wrong planet to attack, they'll deteriorate and become weaker and weaker. Attacking a forge world, for instance, probably ends up being a net loss for the Tyranids; it would be a hard fight, requiring massive energy expenditure to punch through the space defences (not gonna get back the ships that are destroyed in space, there's gonna be debris going in every direction) and create, maintain and recycle creatures that can do battle with Titans and the Skitarii legions, and even if they win, the total haul is very small. Organic beings don't use a huge amount of metals, and I'd be willing to bet that there's more metal than biomass on a lot of forge worlds. We know the Tyranids don't convert nonorganic things into organic matter, since they don't literally eat whole planets rock and all, so they almost certainly can't use metals. Attacking a paradise world like Prandium, by contrast, is probably hugely profitable; not many inhabitants to fight back so the actual conquest is short, and then lots of lush biomass to devour without any opposition.

At least we know Terra's defenses.
We don't know how many Tyranids there are, unless some prof rather then "it is said" is presented I will assume that Leviathan is the last of their race.

Brother Coa wrote:

Commissar41.0 wrote:
Yes so was Gryphonne IV and Macragge and on Iyanden the Eldar had to revive its dead just to win....Oh and not to mention we are thirving on Octavia (Home world of the Orks)

Coolyo294 wrote:Terra is infinitely better defended then Macragge or Gryphonne IV.

Alexzandvar wrote:Attacking Terra, I will say again, would be the biggest waste of Biomass ever.

I think that even the Tyranids would think five times before they go toward Terra.
Here we can see only ships and orbital platforms, and only Terra. Not Mars or Titan or Saturn moons or Pluto etc...

yes! the nids will need MORE biomasses than what HF Leviathan currently has.
If the HF Leviathan stuck in an attrition war against Octarian orks (and a series of Eldar hit 'n run tactics). the HF will have to concentrate on eastern fringe to replenish its biomass before heading towards Terra.
and that is a good possibility for a new global campaign. if GW managments is about to host one.

mattyrm wrote: Surely there are so many humans on Terra they could beat the nids if they gave each citizen a knife?

What's the population? If a hive has 300 billion, Terra has to be at a trillion right?!

The only population figures that have been stated is that Terra and Mars combined account for half a trillion people.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Awesome post, but huge

Spoiler:

Also, gotta point out that this isn't necessarily true.

An atmosphere is a lot of mass, yes, but it's incredibly diffuse. Just collecting it would take an incredible amount of effort, much, much more than collecting biomass in the form of animals and plants would. Collection, like everything, requires an expenditure of energy; and energy, in the final analysis, comes from mass. If the Tyranids fight a battle, win, and collect 100% of their dead, that does NOT mean they have broken even, because they've expended an enormous amount of energy getting there, launching the attack, and fighting the battle. That's GONE, and they aren't getting it back; fighting in space expends energy, and creating the invasion force expends energy, and processing the dead back into living creatures expends energy, and establishing digestion pools expends energy, and sucking up the atmosphere expends energy, and keeping the Ripper swarms alive while they eat everything afterwards expends energy, all of which is simply lost.

In order to break even on a planetary invasion, the Tyranids have to gain more from recycling their dead + consuming the biomass of the planet than they lose in the process of traveling there, fighting, replacing losses, and maintaining their creatures while they eat the world. For that matter, even some tactics that people claim don't hurt Tyranids actually do; burning the corpses after a battle, for instance, converts much of the mass of the body into particulate matter, making it more difficult and time-consuming to recycle. And, of course, if a hive fleet LOSES a battle that's 100% loss and they won't get any of it back.

In short, the Tyranids are not self-sustaining. They are as subject to entropy as everything is; they NEED to eat profitable planets continuously, not to expand but just to survive. If they don't attack planets often enough, or if they pick the wrong planet to attack, they'll deteriorate and become weaker and weaker. Attacking a forge world, for instance, probably ends up being a net loss for the Tyranids; it would be a hard fight, requiring massive energy expenditure to punch through the space defences (not gonna get back the ships that are destroyed in space, there's gonna be debris going in every direction) and create, maintain and recycle creatures that can do battle with Titans and the Skitarii legions, and even if they win, the total haul is very small. Organic beings don't use a huge amount of metals, and I'd be willing to bet that there's more metal than biomass on a lot of forge worlds. We know the Tyranids don't convert nonorganic things into organic matter, since they don't literally eat whole planets rock and all, so they almost certainly can't use metals. Attacking a paradise world like Prandium, by contrast, is probably hugely profitable; not many inhabitants to fight back so the actual conquest is short, and then lots of lush biomass to devour without any opposition.

And this is why they send out Vanguards. This is why they avoid worlds. Not because they're difficult to take, but because there's nothing they need there. Though that long lost article on what was taken from a planet, I'm quite sure it included metals.

However, this is a great post, and is a good summary of the reason for vanguard organisms and why Tyranids avoid some planets. Some simply aren't worth expending the biomass. While there is fluff of Tyranids attacking a tomb world, it doesn't mean it's going to always happen. However, vanguard organisms do a lot of information gathering - in the case of Gryphonne IV, if the Vanguard managed to say, eat the brain of a rather high level person, and discovered that if the planet fell, a lot of nearby systems would lack support in the way of vehicles and ammo, it becomes a good target. It's a net loss of biomass to make the net gain from several other planets higher.

Tyranids didn't destroy 12 other galaxies by being stupid.

If it was 12 galaxies inhabited by non-advanced, non-space-faring races or simply lush, green worlds with nothing more advanced than the common aardvark, the Tyranid might have thought the Milky Way was going to be cake.

Psienesis wrote:If it was 12 galaxies inhabited by non-advanced, non-space-faring races or simply lush, green worlds with nothing more advanced than the common aardvark, the Tyranid might have thought the Milky Way was going to be cake.

Until they run into the Imperium of Mankind.

-Loki- wrote:
Tyranids didn't destroy 12 other galaxies by being stupid.

Where's the evidence they did at all?

DarknessEternal wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
Tyranids didn't destroy 12 other galaxies by being stupid.

Where's the evidence they did at all?

5'th edition rulebook.

I still believe it all comes down to how EAGER the Tyranids (or the Hive Mind if you prefer) are to consume Terra. It's far from unheard of, that the Tyranids are capable of adapting. And by now, it has been suggested that it is exactly what they're doing. They've tried all-out frontal attacks, and that didn't work. And as fluff suggests with Leviathan, the Tyranids are more carefully, systematically collecting biomass from far and wide.

By my logic, they don't really NEED to take on Terra. If they keep on invigorating their fleets, they'll become more and more capable of consuming larger prey.

Once again, Terra isn't Macrage, the nids are going to need a larger force and to rethink their tactics.

The Tyranids have plenty of reasons to attack Terra, half a trillion people, the atmospheres of at least 2 habited worlds, plus its the seat of the Imperium, it goes, the Empire goes. They even need metals, prof; iron is required to transport oxxygen in the blood, and they seem to have other reasons. On tyran, they had to burry the info capsule several miles the keep it safe.

Can Tyranids reverse engineer tech?

-Loki- wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Awesome post, but huge

Spoiler:

Also, gotta point out that this isn't necessarily true.

An atmosphere is a lot of mass, yes, but it's incredibly diffuse. Just collecting it would take an incredible amount of effort, much, much more than collecting biomass in the form of animals and plants would. Collection, like everything, requires an expenditure of energy; and energy, in the final analysis, comes from mass. If the Tyranids fight a battle, win, and collect 100% of their dead, that does NOT mean they have broken even, because they've expended an enormous amount of energy getting there, launching the attack, and fighting the battle. That's GONE, and they aren't getting it back; fighting in space expends energy, and creating the invasion force expends energy, and processing the dead back into living creatures expends energy, and establishing digestion pools expends energy, and sucking up the atmosphere expends energy, and keeping the Ripper swarms alive while they eat everything afterwards expends energy, all of which is simply lost.

In order to break even on a planetary invasion, the Tyranids have to gain more from recycling their dead + consuming the biomass of the planet than they lose in the process of traveling there, fighting, replacing losses, and maintaining their creatures while they eat the world. For that matter, even some tactics that people claim don't hurt Tyranids actually do; burning the corpses after a battle, for instance, converts much of the mass of the body into particulate matter, making it more difficult and time-consuming to recycle. And, of course, if a hive fleet LOSES a battle that's 100% loss and they won't get any of it back.

In short, the Tyranids are not self-sustaining. They are as subject to entropy as everything is; they NEED to eat profitable planets continuously, not to expand but just to survive. If they don't attack planets often enough, or if they pick the wrong planet to attack, they'll deteriorate and become weaker and weaker. Attacking a forge world, for instance, probably ends up being a net loss for the Tyranids; it would be a hard fight, requiring massive energy expenditure to punch through the space defences (not gonna get back the ships that are destroyed in space, there's gonna be debris going in every direction) and create, maintain and recycle creatures that can do battle with Titans and the Skitarii legions, and even if they win, the total haul is very small. Organic beings don't use a huge amount of metals, and I'd be willing to bet that there's more metal than biomass on a lot of forge worlds. We know the Tyranids don't convert nonorganic things into organic matter, since they don't literally eat whole planets rock and all, so they almost certainly can't use metals. Attacking a paradise world like Prandium, by contrast, is probably hugely profitable; not many inhabitants to fight back so the actual conquest is short, and then lots of lush biomass to devour without any opposition.

And this is why they send out Vanguards. This is why they avoid worlds. Not because they're difficult to take, but because there's nothing they need there. Though that long lost article on what was taken from a planet, I'm quite sure it included metals.

However, this is a great post, and is a good summary of the reason for vanguard organisms and why Tyranids avoid some planets. Some simply aren't worth expending the biomass. While there is fluff of Tyranids attacking a tomb world, it doesn't mean it's going to always happen. However, vanguard organisms do a lot of information gathering - in the case of Gryphonne IV, if the Vanguard managed to say, eat the brain of a rather high level person, and discovered that if the planet fell, a lot of nearby systems would lack support in the way of vehicles and ammo, it becomes a good target. It's a net loss of biomass to make the net gain from several other planets higher.

Tyranids didn't destroy 12 other galaxies by being stupid.

Well then, Tyranids definitely know how to survive between galaxies without this chain of planets they apparently need.

There is no way that a planet with a large enouph ocean cannot make up for all of the loss they take. There is an estimated 326 million trillion gallons of water on Earth today..... thats a lot of future nid's

and it is said that Tyranids carry off biomass to unkown areas of the universe. So they arent really hurting for it if they are doing that.

Iranna wrote:
Indeed. However, one would assume that the Hive Mind would commit an extremely large presence if it were ever to assault Terra, we're talking billions, possibly trillions, of Bio-ships. I don't even think the Sol navy could withstand it.

indeed I would assume that over 2/10 of the guardsmen would kill themeslves outright when the Biomass hit the fan
besides they only thing guardsmen are good for is Biomass and eventally making useful cover for the Termagaunts while they kill more Guardsmen!
the only real threat I would think was if the SM went into a Holy F*** this is going to happen mode and mass build Titans, land Raiders, Emperor class Crusiers and all of them jump into either Terminator Armor or Dreadnoughts

AND I HATE how everyone says "oh well the Necrons landed on Mars and were evaporated instanly" were not going for Mars were going to a more heavily defended stratiglcally Vauble Planet then Baal, Macragge, Cadia, and possibly Saturn combined. basically put we will get killed faster but hey guns need ammo and a blockade can starve entire systems leaving them defenceless so sacrifice all the Hormagaunts, Rippers, and Spores and lets get some Hierophants, and some of those Bio ships pumpin! Oh and some Norn Queens are welcome too!

My reaction to this entire thread.




GAAAH WASTE OF BIOMASS GAAAAH

DarknessEternal wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
Tyranids didn't destroy 12 other galaxies by being stupid.

Where's the evidence they did at all?

5th edition rulebook, Tyranid fluff section' 'With the husks of a dozen galaxies behind them...'.

They've done in 12 other galaxies. We're next.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psienesis wrote:If it was 12 galaxies inhabited by non-advanced, non-space-faring races or simply lush, green worlds with nothing more advanced than the common aardvark, the Tyranid might have thought the Milky Way was going to be cake.

If that's the case, they wouldn't have needed to evolve Heirophants, Carnifexes, Trygons, Heirodules, Tyrannofexes and all those other nasty defense buster creatures they have had since they entered our galaxy (5th edition fluff retconned it so they had all these when they entered the milky way. They all fought on Macragge).

If they hadn't come up against feirce resistance before our galaxy, they would have moved on Tyran with nothing but rippers.