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I agree that this is definitely just another plot point to start discussion. Like the blood ravens.. And the two missing primarchs... And the continuous hints at loyal primarchs being alive and well.

Interesting none the less.s

Also, am I the only one that finds this and the victory of the Tyranids in the event of an "final stand" kind of scenario far more believable than Draigos fluff? Just sayin'.

Terra is to awesome for the tyranids. They would get wrecked before tthey touched the ground. Every "marine clan" would come to terra if a big enough force tried to attack it.

This is why the Nids should take out terra.... All the responses about how they wouldnt last 5 mins or how they wouldnt even get there......

How garbage GW make the nids codex compared to the marine codexes dosent reflect how well the nids actually fight....

The Imperium players in all their smugness need a good ass kicking from the xenos.... It would do well to bring them down a peg at how wonderful the imperium of man is compared to everybody else....

Terra is just another rock for the nids to poop on. Get over it =]

Alexzandvar wrote:My reaction to this entire thread.




GAAAH WASTE OF BIOMASS GAAAAH

And here is how much I care about how much you dont like this thread.....



Its a good read, I like the rising action, not to mention the plot is just beautiful.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Well then, Tyranids definitely know how to survive between galaxies without this chain of planets they apparently need.

There is no way that a planet with a large enouph ocean cannot make up for all of the loss they take. There is an estimated 326 million trillion gallons of water on Earth today..... thats a lot of future nid's

and it is said that Tyranids carry off biomass to unkown areas of the universe. So they arent really hurting for it if they are doing that.

The fact that a Hive Fleet (or, rather, at least some of a Hive Fleet) can manage to cross galaxies doesn't mean that they didn't take losses doing so. In fact, they certainly did; they must have. All systems have entropy, the Tyranids are not excluded. That is almost certainly WHY they eat whole planets; space travel drains energy from them, and they need to replenish it.

In addition, I have to point out that, well, no; the ocean is NOT a whole lot of future 'nids, or at least it's not nearly as many as it seems at first glance.

First off, you can't actually make an organism out of water; what we refer to as biological organisms are also called 'carbon-based' life-forms, because all the oxygen and hydrogen molecules in their bodies need carbon molecules to bond with in order to create stable flesh. The ocean would provide an enormous surplus of hydrogen and oxygen, and relatively little carbon. Tyranids either do not or cannot break substances down to the atomic level and recombine them into different molecules (if they could, they would eat the ENTIRE planet rather than leaving the rock) which means they're stuck working at the molecular level at best, and so they'd run out of carbon molecules to bond with all that hydrogen and oxygen pretty fast; which means that a large fraction of the mass of the ocean would simply be wasted. The same applies to atmospheric gases, incidentally. Devouring corpses and plant matter (that is, actual living biomass) would be far, far more efficient than taking the atmosphere or the seawater, as well as easier and faster.

Secondly, a significant fraction of the ocean is comprised of trace elements that living organisms do not need, and in fact are generally quite harmful in high concentrations. That stuff is, if usable at all, still not particularly helpful.

Thirdly, collecting all that stuff requires energy in its own right. A HUGE amount of energy. It wouldn't be easy to suck up an ocean. . . and, of course, as I mentioned above they'd be collecting a massive amount of redundant material, which they get to either store and carry around (more energy used up) or vent into space, unless they have some way to selectively filter the molecules out of water. Which is entirely possible, given that they're Tyranids and biotech is what they do, but that once again takes even more energy.

And last, it depends entirely on how much they suffer by way of losses. Stripping biomass off a planet would be, frankly, hugely inefficient. Collection is a massive undertaking, rendering it into a usable form is difficult and time-consuming, filtration and recombination is highly energy-intensive, and you can't even use all of what you finally get at the end of the whole process. I would honestly anticipate that MOST planets would be, at best, marginally profitable for the Tyranids. Of course, humanity would be strongly associated with the least-marginal worlds, given that I'd think we'd like to settle on the ones which require the least terraforming, so the situation might be a bit better than that, but my interpretation of the Tyranid fluff is that they eat whole galaxies because that's the only way for them to stay on the right side of the entropy curve. And if anything slows a Hive Fleet down too much or inflicts too many losses, even if they do eventually manage to smash through it, there's a very serious danger that they simply will have lost too much to remain a viable force.

BeRzErKeR wrote:First off, you can't actually make an organism out of water; what we refer to as biological organisms are also called 'carbon-based' life-forms, because all the oxygen and hydrogen molecules in their bodies need carbon molecules to bond with in order to create stable flesh. The ocean would provide an enormous surplus of hydrogen and oxygen, and relatively little carbon. Tyranids either do not or cannot break substances down to the atomic level and recombine them into different molecules (if they could, they would eat the ENTIRE planet rather than leaving the rock) which means they're stuck working at the molecular level at best, and so they'd run out of carbon molecules to bond with all that hydrogen and oxygen pretty fast; which means that a large fraction of the mass of the ocean would simply be wasted. The same applies to atmospheric gases, incidentally. Devouring corpses and plant matter (that is, actual living biomass) would be far, far more efficient than taking the atmosphere or the seawater, as well as easier and faster.

This is contradictory to how Tyranids are described as collecting 'biomass'. They simply eat everything, throw themselves into a digestion pool, which is sucked up through a capillary tower. They don't differentiate between different types. It's just one big pool. However, as you said, that also runs contradictory to the fact that they eat down to the bedrock - why not eat it all?

Not eating the bedrock and further down might come down to time. The amount of time it takes for them to eat that, and the danger of the heated core of the planet, might simply make it prudent to stop at the bedrock. It's just easier to stop, move on, and fine another world.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Secondly, a significant fraction of the ocean is comprised of trace elements that living organisms do not need, and in fact are generally quite harmful in high concentrations. That stuff is, if usable at all, still not particularly helpful.

They show a great propensity for throwing poisons on their weapons. Things like toxin sacs embedded in creatures designed for close assault and in the ammo of some ranges weapons, even spore mines, right down to the spores released by Venomthropes and the spores they release into the air of a world to choke defenders. What better way to have toxins designed to kill the enemy of an unknown galaxy than simply employ toxins harvested from planets already harmful to the average species of the galaxy?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Thirdly, collecting all that stuff requires energy in its own right. A HUGE amount of energy. It wouldn't be easy to suck up an ocean. . . and, of course, as I mentioned above they'd be collecting a massive amount of redundant material, which they get to either store and carry around (more energy used up) or vent into space, unless they have some way to selectively filter the molecules out of water. Which is entirely possible, given that they're Tyranids and biotech is what they do, but that once again takes even more energy.

Someone actually did a huge study on this. Given the amount of energy used to 'drink' bioass from the surface of a planet to a hive ship in orbit, even considering the capillary tower has moving muscles and acts like a throat, helping it on the way up, more energy would be expended harvesting all the biomass than they would gain. This sort of thing simply comes down to 'a wizard did it'.

BeRzErKeR wrote:And if anything slows a Hive Fleet down too much or inflicts too many losses, even if they do eventually manage to smash through it, there's a very serious danger that they simply will have lost too much to remain a viable force.

Quite a few hive fleets have 'come back from the dead'. Kraken and its splinter fleets (Megalodon is a new hive fleet that has risen from a Kraken splinter fleet), the remaining tendrils of Behemoth, and even the likes of Jormungandr being 'dead' for centuries then coming back and swelling its size on a bunch of agri-worlds. It's another case of 'a wizard did it', which the 40k fluff is full of.

The imperium would most likely just try to run away. When they had the emperor they would of fought, but now they have calgar and he's terrible.

Seriously though, the iom is horrible at fighting bugs. They rely on attrition against them, nuff said.

Well i have never read about certain things not being used to make more 'nids. Scientifically you are correct, but the warhammer fluff states that they drain planets to strengthen their fleet.

DarknessEternal wrote:
-Loki- wrote:

Tyranids didn't destroy 12 other galaxies by being stupid.

Where's the evidence they did at all?


5th edition rulebook, Tyranid fluff section' 'With the husks of a dozen galaxies behind them...'.

They've done in 12 other galaxies. We're next.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I can't find that, but I do beleive it is suppolst to be dozens, as in 24 or more.

It says 'a dozen'. As in around 12.

Milisim wrote:The Imperium players in all their smugness need a good ass kicking from the xenos.... It would do well to bring them down a peg at how wonderful the imperium of man is compared to everybody else....

Thank you so much finally someone who understands I never said the Nids had to destroy Terra they just needed to show the Imperium they are not as good and protected as they think thus setting an example no other race has set foot on Terra (NO CHAOS is not included the only reason they got on was because over half of they loyalists turned so it was easy and no one saw it coming)

I mean really youre talking about a race that even when it dies it is regenerated by picking up its own biomass and spitting out more.....its like Necrons without the metal and gauss weapons

The Eldar have.

So have the Old Ones.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
CTan also, if trippy dream-state trances are to be believed.

odorofdeath wrote:What's interesting to me is what abandon will so when he finally reaches Terra after the tyranids have consumed it.... lol.

I can see it - Abaddon bringing together the forces of Chaos to ally with the IoM, because no one can destroy the false Emperor but him! Then after they are done, the Emperor and Abaddon can bro-fist.

I'd imagine the chaos daemons would eventually come save the imperium after enough of it falls down. They thrive on endless warfare and the suffering of mortals. They need souls!!! Can't have souls and powerful emotions if all life was just 1 overmind with just 1 emotion. At the very least I can see the chaos gods getting behind that one.

bloodcrushers vs hive guards! rawr!!

nice little chat on CSM now back on topic Nids would eventually destroy Terra if they took out the Manufactorums on the Forge Worlds and a few SM chapter planets would help as well.

Which is assuming that they can. The more experienced chapters seem capable of (eventually) beating back a Tyranid invasion, and the 'Order' races of the galaxy are apparently willing to form temporary alliances in order to defeat them. Of course, the Necrons could just plan to let them onto Terra and then nuke it.

Durza wrote:Which is assuming that they can. The more experienced chapters seem capable of (eventually) beating back a Tyranid invasion, and the 'Order' races of the galaxy are apparently willing to form temporary alliances in order to defeat them. Of course, the Necrons could just plan to let them onto Terra and then nuke it.

.... wait what? ... like they've been able to the whole time... unrestricted totally without issue and only reason they haven't is it's a boring sight or something? Your post makes no sense to me.

Under the new (pathetic) codex fluff they can destabilize suns with the touch of a button from the other side of the galaxy.

Brother Coa wrote:At least we know Terra's defenses.
We don't know how many Tyranids there are, unless some prof rather then "it is said" is presented I will assume that Leviathan is the last of their race.

Terra is not the most well defended world.

It's BOREALUM, an Empire of BALD AND FOOLISHNESS.




No Tyranid could last long against STEEL RAHN.

Alexzandvar wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:At least we know Terra's defenses.
We don't know how many Tyranids there are, unless some prof rather then "it is said" is presented I will assume that Leviathan is the last of their race.

Terra is not the most well defended world.

It's BOREALUM, an Empire of BALD AND FOOLISHNESS.




No Tyranid could last long against STEEL RAHN.

Yeah, that shtik certainly didn't get old years ago..

wait...

Soladrin wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:At least we know Terra's defenses.
We don't know how many Tyranids there are, unless some prof rather then "it is said" is presented I will assume that Leviathan is the last of their race.

Terra is not the most well defended world.

It's BOREALUM, an Empire of BALD AND FOOLISHNESS.




No Tyranid could last long against STEEL RAHN.

Yeah, that shtik certainly didn't get old years ago..

wait...

There are Hieroglyphs found in an Egyptian tomb of a "Your mom" joke.

No joke ever gets old.

Alexzandvar wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:At least we know Terra's defenses.
We don't know how many Tyranids there are, unless some prof rather then "it is said" is presented I will assume that Leviathan is the last of their race.

Terra is not the most well defended world.

It's BOREALUM, an Empire of BALD AND FOOLISHNESS.




No Tyranid could last long against STEEL RAHN.

Yeah, that shtik certainly didn't get old years ago..

wait...

There are Hieroglyphs found in an Egyptian tomb of a "Your mom" joke.

No joke ever gets old.

It is a proven fact, that 98% of people are idiots, except for those that know that song,

The fact of the matter is, if I find it funny, and my friends find it funny how am I to know more what others will think?

Not to derail this thread into another "Alex and Lolrobot talk show"

Sorry for taking so long to reply.

-Loki- wrote:Read the rulebook, the boxout 'the threat without' in the rulebook. It clarifies that only a few tendrils of Kraken and Behemoth were defeated, and the majority is still out there.

The majority? Then what is it doing, and why does that make Leviathan such a big threat in comparison if either Kraken or Behemoth should still be able to take such worlds as Macragge?

The 5th edition codex specifically states the Eldars method of bruning entire worlds is simply to deny biomass. It's a dumb tactic.

I like to assume that they have some sort of other reason for it. Maybe to direct them to non-Eldar areas? Or maybe just so they won't be any stronger when they reach some Craftworld. It could still be reasonable.

And the Imperium might not have the resources to counter another mojor hive fleet.

I can baselessly speculate too.

True. It's struggling as it is.

I was merely trying to point out that there might not be any more Hive Fleets arriving from outside the galaxy.

No, it just proves they can underestimate the defense of a planet and not commit enough.

Which is pretty much attacking a planet not worth the biomass they commit to it. The Hive Mind is not all-knowing, and does attack heavily fortified planets. There's no reason to think it would not attack Sol if it got near enough to it.

Hive ships arrive and drink up the harvested biomass through cappillary towers. There aren't enough storage hive ships that the Imperium has seen in a hive fleet to actually hold what is harvested from a single planet. The biomass is going somewhere.

Maybe the Tyranid process isn't as efficient as the Imperium thinks it is. Maybe they need it for leaving the gravity of a system or something. Either way, they have no way of actually returning it to some giant Hive Fleet outside the galaxy other than actually ferrying it back, and without seeing any hint of that actually happening I'm going to assume that Magos was wrong.

Not at all. Different Forgeworlds often hide secret designs even from Mars to ensure they are the only Forge that can make them. The Mechancus is just as fractured as the Imperium. There's like, 3 Forgeworlds that can make the Leman Russ Vanquisher. Gryphonne IV was one of them. Now there's one less.

Where did you read this? All I've read is that all Forgeworlds have to send a copy of the STC to Mars. They aren't really going to be able to produce these designs and then not have other Forgeworlds find out about it considering how far across the Imperium the Regiments using them will be posted. Sure, only a few Forgeworlds have the design, but presumably Mars is one of them and can give other Forgeworlds the design if it sees fit.

Again, it hurts the Imperium in other ways. Plus, Forgeworlds are generall rich in minerals - Tyranids take those as well.

True enough. So would a dead world, and I don't know how much metal and such the Tyranids take.

Entity is what is used to describe it. It is, however, sentient. it's a collective consiousness. It sits in the warp - proven by Tigerius being able to 'read' it. The Shadow is an even bigger warp disturbance generated by the hive mind.

Fair enough.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Well then, Tyranids definitely know how to survive between galaxies without this chain of planets they apparently need.

How much energy did the lose travelling between galaxies though? How long did the journey take, how much biomass did they lose in the void? They could lose almost all of the resources of the galaxy they came from to actually get to the next one.

Commissar41.0 wrote:a blockade can starve entire systems leaving them defenceless

Have the Tyranids actually used blockades in such a manner before? The closest to that I've read about is Jörmungandr, which used asteroids and such to hit planets before attacking (but was pretty much destroyed in the end save for seeded creatures).

Milisim wrote:The Imperium players in all their smugness need a good ass kicking from the xenos.... It would do well to bring them down a peg at how wonderful the imperium of man is compared to everybody else....

Sorry, but the Imperium of Man is the most powerful faction in the game. Only Tyranids come close, but thus far I'd still place the Imperium above.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Seriously though, the iom is horrible at fighting bugs. They rely on attrition against them, nuff said.

In a long enough battle of attrition the Imperium will win. If the Tyranids can't take the planet, they're losing. That's actually the only way you can really fight the Tyranids aside from killing all the Synapse creatures first. You can't rout them. When the enemy refuses to retreat all you have is attrition tactics - killing proportionately more of the enemy than they kill of you. The Imperium, like other factions, uses fancy tactics and such but all it comes down to in the end is killing more than you lose.

Commissar41.0 wrote:Thank you so much finally someone who understands I never said the Nids had to destroy Terra

You were talking about them having a nom-nom party on Terra. How is that not destroying Terra?

Ascalam wrote:The Eldar have.

When did this happen?

For that matter, is it definitively stated the Old Ones did as well? I'd assume in the old Necron Codex or the Eldar one.

-Loki- wrote:It says 'a dozen'. As in around 12.

I hope they mean a traditional dozen and not a bakers one. Could you imagine GW trying to fast talk that one

Nids, sorry you are holding onto some good drugs/hope if you think you will see your hive fleets pwning terra anytime soon.

They'd sooner give it to chaos or orks sorry.

The Eldar have visited Terra to give advice a few times, mainly in older fluff. I'll see if i can find the stories involved.

The Old Ones built Humanity, and seeded them on Earth.

Old Necron Codex.


As to the IOM being the most powerful faction.. The IOM claims it is, and the fluff is from the IOM's point of view

Other sources disagree.

The Emperor wouldn't have opened his eyes in fear when Gork and Mork awoke, if the Orks an extinction event possibility

Ascalam wrote:The Eldar have visited Terra to give advice a few times, mainly in older fluff. I'll see if i can find the stories involved.

Ah, fair enough.

The Old Ones built Humanity, and seeded them on Earth.

I thought it was in that Codex.

As to the IOM being the most powerful faction.. The IOM claims it is, and the fluff is from the IOM's point of view

Even one of the Necron Lords said that the Imperium has ruled the galaxy for 10,000 years (and have little to show for it, but still).

Other sources disagree.

What other sources? The Tyranids are the only faction big enough to challenge the Imperium properly, and even then I'd argue that the fact that their main Hive Fleets are consistently stopped (eventually) suggests that they aren't powerful enough to rival the Imperium. Chaos is too fractured and relatively contained. The Eldar are too weak and again, fairly divided and don't have the power to try to reforge their empire. The Necrons are, again, too fractured to begin to rival the Imperium. Daemons I'm not counting because they don't belong in the Imperium. The Tau are in the same league as one Necron Dynasty power-wise (although they're the only race (aside from the Tyranids) that's mostly united. The Imperium is in fact very divided, but united sufficiently to face its threats. and even they have Farsight splitting off).

The Emperor wouldn't have opened his eyes in fear when Gork and Mork awoke, if the Orks an extinction event possibility

The Orks aren't one faction though. They consist of thousands, or tens of thousands (or more) of factions. Species-wise they're the most powerful. Faction-wise, they lag far behind the Imperium.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Nids, sorry you are holding onto some good drugs/hope if you think you will see your hive fleets pwning terra anytime soon.

They'd sooner give it to chaos or orks sorry.

Heh, yeah, the most fractured races in the game overcome the Imperium? Talk about being on drugs.

Fair enough. If we take faction to mean unified group (and exclude Daemons) the IOM is the most powerful. If we're talking game faction (as in what codex race you play..i've seen it phrased this way before) the Orks have it

The Necron fluff was written by an IOM fanboy, but hey... The Necrons also don't equate controls the most space with rules the galaxy either. The IOM is a fairly small amount of total space, but well spread across the galaxy and organised.

Saying they ruled the whole galaxy is a bit of a fallacy. There are vast gaps within the IOm's controlled area that are unexplored and uncontrolled, full of hostile races etc..