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Lets assume the nids are going to terra not for the biomass as much but for the psychic beacon there. Nids win or lose in space, the ground battle is almost meanless if space cant be won.

And thanks to Terra's unique place of power in the imperium, the resources the nids would have to throw to win the space battle would be immense for basicly no profit--save if eating the emperor makes some kind of new super-bug.

I think the bigger problem lies in the new method of travel the bugs employ, where magic gravity that wrecks planets preceeds the nid arrival. The magic gravity damage would be the real problem facing the Sol system, as even if the space battle is won without a single casualty Terra, Mars, Jupiter, ect will all be damaged.

Joey wrote:Because every GW race is vastly more powerful than all the others. It's almost as if they're a company trying to make profits rather than develop a coherent backstory.

Alright, everyone buzzkillington here has just revealed something I don't think any of us have ever known.

Yes, we know there are plot holes and messed up fluff so they can make money. However I still like discussing fluff. Its interesting, and I love the 40k universe. I'm not really sure why people feel the need to make posts like this.

Anyway, back on topic.

The hive mind is not stupid. It won't throw itself into terra blindly. It will starve them out. Without the support of the other planets for resources and troops they will die due to attrition. Hell, they do.t even have their own water on terra!

DevianID wrote:
I think the bigger problem lies in the new method of travel the bugs employ, where magic gravity that wrecks planets preceeds the nid arrival. The magic gravity damage would be the real problem facing the Sol system, as even if the space battle is won without a single casualty Terra, Mars, Jupiter, ect will all be damaged.

It's presumably not actually hugely damaging seeing as how Macragge, for instance, seems to have recovered.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:The hive mind is not stupid. It won't throw itself into terra blindly. It will starve them out. Without the support of the other planets for resources and troops they will die due to attrition. Hell, they do.t even have their own water on terra!

The Hive Mind is pretty stupid at times. It does seem to have a tendency to attack heavily defended locations when there are more biomass rich and less defended locations they could munch on, and that's not taking the luring affect of the Astronomicon into account.

Any possible attack would be proceeded by pioneer organisms. Gene stealer lurking on the black ships. Frozen shock troopers hiding inside of the ice delivery. Highly deadly and mutative creatures that are "being studied" on mars. (Dose the admech study the nids?) All acting as sleeper agents undermining terras defenses. By the time any actual fleet arrives, things won't be in destroy a necron shape.

Would make for a neat story I think.

Warrior Squirrel wrote:If the Nids reach Terra the other planets would already have been eaten.

Exactly. Terra is not a self-sufficient world. The forces defending it require supplies. If the rest of the Imperium fell, Terra would slowly weaken and then eventually succumb to invasion as its defences crumbled.

So are you saying that we might have to go back to Macragge......ugh lemme get the Swarmlord.

I actually want to run a campaign with an old friend who has an Ultramarine army about returning to Macragge. Unfortunately, he lives too far away now.

In the initial fluff when Macragge was attacked, the nids didnt have the magic gravity damage, though they did retcon it in. Also, Macragge isnt covered in buildings like Terra is. I can see a book falling in the holy vault causing a lockdown of the vault for 10 years for example as rituals and rites are performed allowing someone to pick it back up and place it on the shelf.

What happens if a brick falls on the golden throne for example? The terror felt by the imperium could birth a new chaos god of fear, even if the brick doesnt hit the emperor.

The fact that Macragge and Iyanden are still standing (even if only barely) while the hive fleets that attacked them practically cease to exist, pretty much acts as definitive fact that the Tyranids would never be able to crack open Terra. It's simply beyond their ability. The Necrons, if fully united, could possibly do it. The Orks, if fully united (as in, every ork in the galaxy under one waaagh), could possibly do it. No other faction could, though.

I don't consider Chaos Daemons a faction, honestly.

Its made pretty clear in the fluff that the only competition the Tyranids have for reaching Terra are the Orks. No other race has the numbers. Its mentioned before that the Orks would've already taken over the galaxy if not for their infighting.

Tyranids have only 1 purpose and 1 leader, unlike the Orks, plus the hive fleets we've seen seem to be the tip of the iceberg, numbers-wise.

What's interesting to me is what abandon will so when he finally reaches Terra after the tyranids have consumed it.... lol.

The Emperor's Palace took a solid month of titan bombardments during the Horus Heresy to so much as get inside the thing... exterminatus class ships were blotting out the sky and if it were not for Horus' foolishness in dropping his void shield the Imperium may have fallen. The Nids could perhaps produce what you are saying to get there but that was when a betrayal from unseen enemies of the Ruinous powers turned the Imperium in on itself... hate to say it but as vast as the Nids may be destroyed the entire galaxy would be a lot harder than they realize. Not to mention even if you have been normally it simply takes diverting Nids to an orkish home world to delay you long enough to exterminatus the planet we were both on causing you to regroup and thus space marine cruisers to track you down in space and obliterate you.

I get that you are attracted to this idea your race will devour all the 40k universe but even if fluff was advanced in ways to tell storylines, no way are GW allowing the golden boys out of the fight. IF ANYTHING somehow someone would find some ANCEINT weapon or they'd fire something similar to the pyschic scourge of Space Marine and pop all the beautiful heads synapses creatures. All and all i think you will need to reside yourself to being seen a powerful threat to the Imperium that could be dealt with but honestly isn't worth the investment to them. Like a roach you can never get them all.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:If it were not for Horus' foolishness in dropping his void shield the Imperium may have fallen.

Telling that and totally forgetting three Astartes Legions rushing toward Terra ( Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Ultramarines ) that would tip the balance and win the war.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: if it were not for Horus' foolishness in dropping his void shield

Not sure if trolling.

Horus dropped the shields because the siege had gone overwhelmingly bad for him and his doom (ie Space Wolves and Dark Angels) were on the way. It was a desperate ploy to win now rather than retreat into a hellishly protracted engagement.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: if it were not for Horus' foolishness in dropping his void shield

Not sure if trolling.

Horus dropped the shields because the siege had gone overwhelmingly bad for him and his doom (ie Space Wolves and Dark Angels) were on the way. It was a desperate ploy to win now rather than retreat into a hellishly protracted engagement.

The last time I read about the siege in Codex, I could have sworn it said something to the affect of "No one is sure why exactly Horus decided to lower his void shields. Perhaps it was to better see his oncoming victory blah blah blah". Point being, from my understanding, Horus was kicking Terra's ass and lowered his void shields for unknown reasons.

If what you're saying is true, that he did it for some... desperate ploy, though I don't see how lowering his void shields would help at all, then I guess that's cool. Personally, I've always liked the idea of an Eldar strikeforce sabotaging them.

Surely there are so many humans on Terra they could beat the nids if they gave each citizen a knife?

What's the population? If a hive has 300 billion, Terra has to be at a trillion right?!

mattyrm wrote: Surely there are so many humans on Terra they could beat the nids if they gave each citizen a knife?

What's the population? If a hive has 300 billion, Terra has to be at a trillion right?!

Do they have people living on terra? I'm almost sure that it's just the imperial plaice and the rest is just barren ground with no water or hills.

Brother Coa wrote:One of 3 tendrils of Leviathan is going straight for Terra, it will arrive when GW wants to present it in a new apocalypse battle, or novel or worlds campaign.
If Tyranids attack Terra they will lose very badly. Terra is the most heavily defended planet in the Imperium of Mankind and in the galaxy. Necrons tried to land on Mars, their ships were vaporized in seconds they landed. Tyranids can do some damage but they would quickly lose more biomass then they can regain.
If they ever arrive it will be a complete loss for them.

for now. the tendrils that poised towards an Ork Empire of Octarius (which actually 'rigged' by Inquisitor Kryptmann) has a good tendancy to be a global campaign. the war is not over.... yet.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Octarius_War#.Tzf3z4HjYTA

his original plan is to pit the two most dangerous xenos (as he evaluated) against each other. too bad Eldar seemed to found the traces of Kryptmann's activity . and decided to hit the Imperial world hoping to kill the Inquisitor (and save their dwindling numbers)

now the war is Fatal four way... there maybe someone else that might join the fray.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: if it were not for Horus' foolishness in dropping his void shield

Not sure if trolling.

Horus dropped the shields because the siege had gone overwhelmingly bad for him and his doom (ie Space Wolves and Dark Angels) were on the way. It was a desperate ploy to win now rather than retreat into a hellishly protracted engagement.

not trolling reading almost directly from the codex chaos space marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, yes i am not mentioning them because the same tactic would have been done against the nids. I am just underlining the only real way ANYONE has gotten to Terra was from turning the Imperium in on itself where friend became enemy and the Imperium was hardly able to defend itself in any way shape or form from being severed in half, even then it was a heavy challenge.

I think, it would be benifitail for the tyranid fleet to attack Tera. As it has so been stated, you have the ad mech to fight off, they are the only ones who would give very little bio mass. When the space marines and Imperial Guard finaly respond, it will be like ordering a pizza, the nids just have to pose a threat and tip the delivery man.

Hive Mind going after Terra would not necessarily be stupid. Take out Terra and the Imperium's ability to defend its worlds crumbles.

Genestealer infiltrations probably have already discovered the link between Terra and the greater Imperium. Because of this the Hive Mind likely knows Terra is the lynchpin which holds humanity together, and without it their race can feast upon humanity with near impunity.

Think of it as a Biomass "investment". They sacrifice a good deal to take out Terra, but then reap far more later.

Harriticus wrote:Hive Mind going after Terra would not necessarily be stupid. Take out Terra and the Imperium's ability to defend its worlds crumbles.

Genestealer infiltrations probably have already discovered the link between Terra and the greater Imperium. Because of this the Hive Mind likely knows Terra is the lynchpin which holds humanity together, and without it their race can feast upon humanity with near impunity.

Think of it as a Biomass "investment". They sacrifice a good deal to take out Terra, but then reap far more later.

considerable investments, not sure it's worth it cause every nid builds a tide. Not to mention it would take months to get to Terra which is incredibly adequate time for the mobilzation of the imperial forces of all branches needed to bleed the nids dry.

broodstar wrote:@Commisser41.0 There are a few things wrong with your time table. The Tyranids overwhelm by shear number. Now whie the Tyranids are in interspace they are dormant, but alive and since they are alive they still need to be fed. That's why the attacks don't go straight for the target, they have to stop and eat worlds in order to refill there stores.

In order to understand Tyranid Tactics you have got to put yourself into the mind of a social predator. Let's say a Tyranid Hivefleet is a Lion and the Imperium is a Buffalo. Each Hivefleet has arrived piecemeal, they strike a different part of the galactic plane, just like a Lion starts the hunt. First, one and then another and then another, each time the Buffalo outruns or fights off a Lion it gets more tired and weaker. Finally, six, eight, ten show up and it's taken down for the kill.

So far, six have attacked and another four have been detected. Remeber that even though a fleet has been defeated it can still re-emerge. No one in the Imperium knows how many fleets that there are total. And the Hivemind still hasn't shown up yet, it will only show up in the final stages of the invasion.

The Tyranid invasion of Terra is still along way off.

It mentions in the codex that the scale of the dids is larger than one might think. I belive it states the hive fleets are actually part of one single tyranid swarm entity. there fore it would be perfectly possible for the nids to combine some, or even all the hive fleets to sqare their chance of survival.

Harriticus wrote:Hive Mind going after Terra would not necessarily be stupid. Take out Terra and the Imperium's ability to defend its worlds crumbles.

Hive Mind going after Terra would be incredibly stupid, because the Hive Mind would get the gak kicked out of it.

Tyranids couldn't even take out Macragge or Iyanden. What chance could they possibly have against Terra.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Hive Mind going after Terra would not necessarily be stupid. Take out Terra and the Imperium's ability to defend its worlds crumbles.

Hive Mind going after Terra would be incredibly stupid, because the Hive Mind would get the gak kicked out of it.

Tyranids couldn't even take out Macragge or Iyanden. What chance could they possibly have against Terra.

Are we talking Terra now, or Terra one hundred years after the Tyranids have eaten the rest of the Imperium and Terra hasn't been visited by a supply ship for a century?

The same could apply to any faction of course. Terra may be all but invulnerable, but if the rest of the Imperium goes Terra goes down with it.

Xyptc wrote:
Are we talking Terra now, or Terra one hundred years after the Tyranids have eaten the rest of the Imperium and Terra hasn't been visited by a supply ship for a century?

Good idea. When these Terrans get hungry, send the nids in...
Do they still taste like chicken?

Xyptc wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Hive Mind going after Terra would not necessarily be stupid. Take out Terra and the Imperium's ability to defend its worlds crumbles.

Hive Mind going after Terra would be incredibly stupid, because the Hive Mind would get the gak kicked out of it.

Tyranids couldn't even take out Macragge or Iyanden. What chance could they possibly have against Terra.

Are we talking Terra now, or Terra one hundred years after the Tyranids have eaten the rest of the Imperium and Terra hasn't been visited by a supply ship for a century?

The same could apply to any faction of course. Terra may be all but invulnerable, but if the rest of the Imperium goes Terra goes down with it.

The nids have been around for more than a few thousand years in the galactic dates of 40k, ... i really wish nid players would see they aren't going to eat the Galaxy so easily when everyone has an invested reason to fight them... EVERYONE.

Chaos would sooner kill the nids than allow them to take their 10,000 year long plotted prize

Orks would fight because the nids start thinking they are better then the orks!

Eldar would fight because the Imperium of Man has become too paramount to their plans

Dark Eldar.... well they might not but then again without the ability to inflict suffering on others it might be perferable that lazy weak humans are their prey rather than tyranids (i know which i would prefer for easy torture)

Tau, considering they are on the eastern fringe of space may not get involved but it would come to reason that since many nids in the past have attacked the tau they would probably trod over them and the tau wouldn't compromise on their territory unless it's the only avenue

IG & Space Marines = ...lol come on we know they would blot out the sun with their various ships and will to fight the nids to the last in defense of terra (no way you could weed them all out before decapitating the head of the IOM, if you did others would take advantage of the power vacuum)

Ultimately the nids are a horrendous threat to the IOM but if they plan to devoure and kill terra it better be in terms almost as long as Chaos has taken.... which the nids are a more instinctive based army (not to say they aren't tactical) it just means they are alot shorter sighted than the Imperium might be.

I think it's a shiny piece of fluff saying if nids got the chance they would consume terra and the astronomicon which is fair to say most aliens and outsiders would as well.

Xyptc wrote:
Are we talking Terra now, or Terra one hundred years after the Tyranids have eaten the rest of the Imperium and Terra hasn't been visited by a supply ship for a century?

The same could apply to any faction of course. Terra may be all but invulnerable, but if the rest of the Imperium goes Terra goes down with it.

If the Tyranids beat the Imperium they beat the Imperium, but that's fairly obvious. That's not really relevant though. The question asked was why don't the Tyranids attack Terra from 'underneath' the galactic plane when it looks so easy to do so. The fact is it isn't easy to do so, and even if the Tyranids reached there before Imperial forces intercepted the fleet, the Tyranids would struggle to consume Terra.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:The nids have been around for more than a few thousand years in the galactic dates of 40k, ... i really wish nid players would see they aren't going to eat the Galaxy so easily when everyone has an invested reason to fight them... EVERYONE.

Chaos would sooner kill the nids than allow them to take their 10,000 year long plotted prize

Orks would fight because the nids start thinking they are better then the orks!

Eldar would fight because the Imperium of Man has become too paramount to their plans

Dark Eldar.... well they might not but then again without the ability to inflict suffering on others it might be perferable that lazy weak humans are their prey rather than tyranids (i know which i would prefer for easy torture)

Tau, considering they are on the eastern fringe of space may not get involved but it would come to reason that since many nids in the past have attacked the tau they would probably trod over them and the tau wouldn't compromise on their territory unless it's the only avenue

IG & Space Marines = ...lol come on we know they would blot out the sun with their various ships and will to fight the nids to the last in defense of terra (no way you could weed them all out before decapitating the head of the IOM, if you did others would take advantage of the power vacuum) .

Except only the Imperium has taken any pro-active measures to actually combat them.

There's no fluff about say, Black Crusades against a Hive Fleet, no Waaghs specifically against a hive fleet, no Tau expansions fighting them off, no Craftworlds plunging into a fight with a hive fleet, etc. So far, Tau has only fought against them defensively after a hive fleet hit their empire, Chaos has pretty much ignored them, Orks are only in a war with them because an Inquisitor redirected a small part of Leviathan into a large Ork empire. Dark Eldar are just raiding them for meat for their arenas and experiments, and Necrons still aren't doing much of anything. The Eldar are using old technology to burn worlds to bare bedrock, which accomplishes nothing but biomass denial, and also denial of a habitable planet for themselves.

Guess what? The Tyranid codexes say the same thing. Tyranids are the enemy of everyone, this isn't anything new. It's only worth pointing out that the Tyranids are the enemy of everyone if everyone drops their current spats and does something about them. So far, only the Imperium and Eldar have taken an active stance on trying to halt them, and they aren't doing it very successfully.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Ultimately the nids are a horrendous threat to the IOM but if they plan to devoure and kill terra it better be in terms almost as long as Chaos has taken.... which the nids are a more instinctive based army (not to say they aren't tactical) it just means they are alot shorter sighted than the Imperium might be.

I think it's a shiny piece of fluff saying if nids got the chance they would consume terra and the astronomicon which is fair to say most aliens and outsiders would as well.

The piece of fluff says that they are attracted to the astronomican. Why wouldn't they be? The hive mind is a warp entity, and the astronomican is like a huge light house in the warp. However, Tyranids attack worlds when they have learned about them from their vanguard organisms. They avoid worlds not worth attacking. If their vanguards are constantly killed before they even reach Terra, they'd ignore it until a vanguard force got through - no sense wasting masses of biomass on what might be a wild goose chase.

And even then, when they learn about Terra, they'd likely still ignore it. There's an immensely powerful psychic human on Terra? They have their own immensely psychic creatures. He's immortal? So is the hive mind already. What's that? The entire biosphere is gone, and it's a giant city? Yeah, that's a planet not worth investing in. Even with normal planetary defenses, they'd lose more biomass than they gain attacking Terra.

-Loki- wrote:There's no fluff about say, Black Crusades against a Hive Fleet, no Waaghs specifically against a hive fleet, no Tau expansions fighting them off, no Craftworlds plunging into a fight with a hive fleet, etc. So far, Tau has only fought against them defensively after a hive fleet hit their empire, Chaos has pretty much ignored them, Orks are only in a war with them because an Inquisitor redirected a small part of Leviathan into a large Ork empire. Dark Eldar are just raiding them for meat for their arenas and experiments, and Necrons still aren't doing much of anything. The Eldar are using old technology to burn worlds to bare bedrock, which accomplishes nothing but biomass denial, and also denial of a habitable planet for themselves.

Correct I agree with you, No one will do anything cause terra isn't in mortal danger in the least at this time. Far as Chaos, i'd be hard pressed to believe that Abbadon would let anyone else take his Vengeance on the Emperor. If anything he'd let the nids do the job for him and at the last moment come in with overwhelming force declaring a new Black Crusade at the moment the Imperium would break apart and fall like the true opportunists that they are. Which i think would be pretty simple cause if the Nids are dead set on making it to Terra they will take heavy losses but I think they could it would just be hard to stand against the custodians.

The Orks aren't into declaring war as much as declaring fun, I would say the nids would have to tango with the orks in a major way before even considering Terra a viable option because of how much space the orks own. No Waaaghs have been declared on the Nids mostly cause that would involving chasing down their hivefleets, just like orks don't really declare Waaghs on eldar or dark eldar mostly due to their vagrant nature and possessing few home worlds. However we know for a fact a Waagh is starting against the hive fleet that collided with the Orkish empire (forget the name right now) which was engineered by the IOM and that hasn't been moving swiftly and given the Imperium what it needs to protect against Leviathan.

Eldar Will get involved if the IOM is going to fall if not before, we we agreed on this so moving on

Dark Eldar ... meh i think they would probably remain... less than interested but have a reason to consider it.

Necrons on the other hand i am unsure about old school fluff says they would inadvertently help the IOM if Mars was still important to them as Void Dragon might conceivably still be there and not a shard.

the Tau would take defensive action till the nid threat passed and probably rapidly expand in the wake of their momentum.

Lastly remember the Ultramarines are simply a chapter of 1000 marines which irradicated an entire hive Fleet. Events like Armageddon called in INCREDIBLY heavier numbers to halt the advance of the orks from both IG, Space Marines and PDF. Look, i'd like to see the IOM fall too but their fluff is pretty solid in stopping the nid advance time and time again through countless tactics and worlds well before Terra was even considered a primary threat. Since all space travel relies on the Astronomican, the object of the OP's interest all the IOM will stand to protect it and the ideals of The Emperor of Mankind.

That's all i got, I would have to hear of a multiple hive fleets working in unison or of size beyond even nid scales to think it possible.

You guys still debate this?

We already concluded this: only force in the galaxy that can take Terra down are Orks ( if they unite ) and Necrons ( if they unite to ), and even they would have big losses from witch they would need long time to recover.

We can't tell for sure how many Tyranids they are there. It can be their entire race coming, or it can be that LEvithian is the last Hive Fleet that will ever enter the galaxy ( I am talking about Levithian, Behemot and Kraken beign the "main body" of Tyranid race while all otehrs are splinters ). But as it is stated, Terra in not alone, entire Sol System is liek one big fortress. I can assume that PDF of Pluto ( in FW Intro we can see that Pluto is Hive World, same may go for Mercury and Saturn and Titan moons ) and other worlds in Sol System would send their force and naval forces to aid. Jupiter is one big shipyard, on Mars in the entire Mechanicus wit hit's Titan Legions etc...

Whoever attack Sol can only except defeat, even if they cut it off they will still have trouble defeating it.