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blaktoof wrote:Models are moved from the edge of their bases, and vehicles are moved from their front facing to their front facing RAW not from their center point to center point, refer to the movement diagram in the brb.

Now you are getting somewhere, but missing where that is.

The point measured needs to be the same one both times.

You have no basis in the rules for your first sentence. None.

Also - I'm the same as kirsanth. I also argued against it.

If what I am saying is incorrect, turning 45 degrees will always reduce the amount the vehicle can move forward (as per its facing prior to moving).

If what I am saying is correct, the vehicle can turn as much as it likes without reducing its forward movement.

You can only pivot during your move, if it is during your move you have started moving. Therefore by the time you have pivoted you have moved. If you do nothing other than pivot you are given an exemption that you can count as remaining stationary in the brb.

So movement is measured from the vehicle before you do any moving, which includes turning as that happens during movement, not before movement. To the models position at the end of movement

rigeld2 wrote:Also - I'm the same as kirsanth. I also argued against it.

Tyranid player too, it has absolutely no advantage.

Although I have had really crazy luck with Seize the Initiative in tourneys (something like 8/13), so maybe that is a bias?

kirsanth wrote:

blaktoof wrote:Models are moved from the edge of their bases, and vehicles are moved from their front facing to their front facing RAW not from their center point to center point, refer to the movement diagram in the brb.

Now you are getting somewhere, but missing where that is.

The point measured needs to be the same one both times.

I agree the point has to be the same from start to end.

blaktoof wrote:You can only pivot during your move, if it is during your move you have started moving. Therefore by the time you have pivoted you have moved. If you do nothing other than pivot you are given an exemption that you can count as remaining stationary in the brb.

So movement is measured from the vehicle before you do any moving, which includes turning as that happens during movement, not before movement. To the models position at the end of movement

So do that? Its what we have all been saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do not mean this to read as bad as it may, but have you actually gotten a ruler and tried this?

A single move can gain 'distance' this way, without the vehicle moving further than it is allowed.
If it turns again, it loses that distance.

blaktoof wrote:
So movement is measured from the vehicle before you do any moving, which includes turning as that happens during movement, not before movement. To the models position at the end of movement

This is not true. And this is what you are failing to understand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Also - I'm the same as kirsanth. I also argued against it.

Tyranid player too, it has absolutely no advantage.

Although I have had really crazy luck with Seize the Initiative in tourneys (something like 8/13), so maybe that is a bias?

I seize maybe 1/10 so that's not it.

If you have a vehicle with a move of 6 that is 5x25 are you ever allowed to move it if it rotates 90 degrees?

Or do you need to back it up to move forward?

Also, what about a raider? I think a raider is about 5" long. If I turn it 180 degrees how far can I then move it at combat speed? IF you say anything less then 6", you start to realize how wrong that interpretation is.

How do you guys feel about the following scenarios?

Scenario A:

1) Deploy a rhino facing forward
2) On turn 1, rotate the rhino 90 degrees (clockwise or counterclockwise; doesn't matter)
3) On turn 1, Move the rhino forward 12 inches

Scenario B:

Turn 1: I move my rhino forward 12 inches
Turn 2: I rotate my rhino 90 degrees and then move it forward 12 inches

Scenario C:

1) Deploy a rhino facing sideways
2) On turn 1, move the rhino 6 inches
3) On turn 1, rotate the rhino 90 degrees
4) On turn 1, move the rhino 6 inches

I'm ok with all of the above. I'm also ok with:

Scenario D:

1) Deploy a rhino facing sideways
2) On turn 1, rotate rhino 90 degrees
3) On turn 1, move forward 12 inches

This ^^^ is just being clever. No rules broken.

I don't understand how one can argue against any of these scenarios if they have read page 57 of the big rulebook.

Ever use a remote control that has two sticks on it (or play "Battlezone" at an arcade)? If you push both sticks forward, you move forward. If you push the left stick forward while pulling the right stick back, you pivot clockwise (the same sort of pivot described on page 57 of the big rulebook). I'll spare the descriptions of pivoting counter-clockwise and moving in reverse; you get it, right? This is how vehicles move in Warhammer.

mgraham wrote:How do you guys feel about the following scenarios?

Scenario A:

1) Deploy a rhino facing forward
2) On turn 1, rotate the rhino 90 degrees (clockwise or counterclockwise; doesn't matter)
3) On turn 1, Move the rhino forward 12 inches

Scenario B:

Turn 1: I move my rhino forward 12 inches
Turn 2: I rotate my rhino 90 degrees and then move it forward 12 inches

Scenario C:

1) Deploy a rhino facing sideways
2) On turn 1, move the rhino 6 inches
3) On turn 1, rotate the rhino 90 degrees
4) On turn 1, move the rhino 6 inches

I'm ok with all of the above. I'm also ok with:

Scenario D:

1) Deploy a rhino facing sideways
2) On turn 1, rotate rhino 90 degrees
3) On turn 1, move forward 12 inches

This ^^^ is just being clever. No rules broken.

I don't understand how one can argue against any of these scenarios if they have read page 57 of the big rulebook.

Ever use a remote control that has two sticks on it (or play "Battlezone" at an arcade)? If you push both sticks forward, you move forward. If you push the left stick forward while pulling the right stick back, you pivot clockwise (the same sort of pivot described on page 57 of the big rulebook). I'll spare the descriptions of pivoting counter-clockwise and moving in reverse; you get it, right? This is how vehicles move in Warhammer.

all scenarios go against raw since you have moved further then the allowed movement. If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong. Nothing in the BRB allowes you to move further then allowed .

kambien wrote:all scenarios go against raw since you have moved further then the allowed movement. If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong. Nothing in the BRB allowes you to move further then allowed .

a) you're wrong
b) So your assertion is that a Ghost Ark cannot pivot 180 degrees in one movement phase?
... that doesn't sound *slightly* ludicrous to you?

of course you can pivot 180 degrees in onve movement phase . You can pivot alone as much as you want.

kambien wrote:of course you can pivot 180 degrees in onve movement phase . You can pivot alone as much as you want.

You just can't pivot then move?

Be careful with your answer.
If you're allowing a Ghost Ark to pivot 180 degrees then move 6", then you're allowing every scenario you just disagreed with.
If you're not allowing a Ghost Ark to pivot 180 degrees then move 6", then you're breaking the rules that explicitly say pivots do not cost movement.

rigeld2 wrote:

kambien wrote:of course you can pivot 180 degrees in onve movement phase . You can pivot alone as much as you want.

You just can't pivot then move?

Be careful with your answer.
If you're allowing a Ghost Ark to pivot 180 degrees then move 6", then you're allowing every scenario you just disagreed with.
If you're not allowing a Ghost Ark to pivot 180 degrees then move 6", then you're breaking the rules that explicitly say pivots do not cost movement.

correct you cannot pivot then move . You move and pivot at the same time or pivot alone and not move .

The pivot did not reduce the movement . Example - You did not measure from the front side of the hull before and after you pivoted and reduced it form the total allowed to move . That is free . Pivoting does not reduce movement.
The forward distance gained however isn't a pivot. Last i knew pivoting isn't a forward and backwards movement , which would measured , it's lateral movement.

kambien wrote:correct you cannot pivot then move . You move and pivot at the same time or pivot alone and not move .

Please cite a rule.

The pivot did not reduce the movement . Example - You did not measure from the front side of the hull before and after you pivoted and reduced it form the total allowed to move . That is free . Pivoting does not reduce movement.

So after pivoting, I still have 6" of movement left?

The forward distance gained however isn't a pivot. Last i knew pivoting isn't a forward and backwards movement , which would measured , it's lateral movement.

Right... so you don't measure pivots... so...

I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say.

kambien wrote:

The pivot did not reduce the movement . Example - You did not measure from the front side of the hull before and after you pivoted and reduced it form the total allowed to move . That is free . Pivoting does not reduce movement.
The forward distance gained however isn't a pivot. Last i knew pivoting isn't a forward and backwards movement , which would measured , it's lateral movement.

Wait. . . what?

Pivoting isn't movement of ANY kind; forward, backward, or lateral. Shuffling side to side (lateral movement) is not pivoting. Pivoting is the act of turning around the center point of the vehicle.

And you are, quite explicitly, allowed to pivot and move, both. And pivoting does not reduce your movement.

Regardless of whether or not you pivot, you may then, AFTER DOING SO, move 12" in any direction. In doing so, the front end of your vehicle might end up more than 12" away from where it started; the BACK end of your vehicle, however, will in that situation end up LESS than 12" away from where it started. You will still have moved 12" exactly.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

kambien wrote:

The pivot did not reduce the movement . Example - You did not measure from the front side of the hull before and after you pivoted and reduced it form the total allowed to move . That is free . Pivoting does not reduce movement.
The forward distance gained however isn't a pivot. Last i knew pivoting isn't a forward and backwards movement , which would measured , it's lateral movement.

Wait. . . what?

Pivoting isn't movement of ANY kind; forward, backward, or lateral. Shuffling side to side (lateral movement) is not pivoting. Pivoting is the act of turning around the center point of the vehicle.

And you are, quite explicitly, allowed to pivot and move, both. And pivoting does not reduce your movement.

Regardless of whether or not you pivot, you may then, AFTER DOING SO, move 12" in any direction. In doing so, the front end of your vehicle might end up more than 12" away from where it started; the BACK end of your vehicle, however, will in that situation end up LESS than 12" away from where it started. You will still have moved 12" exactly.

Just for clarification i thought lateral in my above post was the correct word however after this responce you made me realizes you might think i ment the actualy moveing a modle sideways which i am not trying to imply .

Pivoting moves your model does it not ? Pivoting is movement . I can even measure the distance of the pivot if i wanted to . But the rules tell me the Pivot doesn't reduce the movement. So there is no point. What i am trying to say is that everyone seems to include forward movement gained with "pivot does not reduce movement" while they are still breaking rules by adding the distance gained in the pivot ( which it doesn't tell you to do ) and then proceed to move further then the allowed movement .

Simple question for your example. Do you measure the move before you touch the model or after you already started moving it ? Because i play you have to measure before you start moving the modle , unless someone has a rule for doing otherwise. So its actually really difficult to exceed the allowed movement. My book is pretty shoddy atm so i could be missing something .

kambien wrote:
If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong.

Which page in the rulebook can I read about measuring from where you started to where you finished?

mgraham wrote:

kambien wrote:
If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong.

Which page in the rulebook can I read about measuring from where you started to where you finished?

i'll guess in the movement section unless you measure movement after you moved

kambien wrote:

mgraham wrote:

kambien wrote:
If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong.

Which page in the rulebook can I read about measuring from where you started to where you finished?

i'll guess in the movement section unless you measure movement after you moved

You'll guess? What do you mean you'll guess? I'm looking at the movement section of the rulebook right now; I see nothing about "If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong". You're telling me that my scenarios all go against raw, but you can't tell me where your so called "rule" is written in the rulebook.

So a Space Marine player has two Land Raiders deployed sideways on his deployment zone.

For the first Land Raider, he declares a 12" tank shock perpendicular to the way the vehicle is facing. Then points at the tank shock rules on page 68 which clearly indicate that you pivot the vehicle on the spot, declare a distance, and then move the declared distance. So the side ways land raider ends up with its front side somewhere around 13" to 14" (I don't have a land raider handy to measure at the moment) from the starting line, if there's nothing in the way. Because that's explicitly what the Tank Shock rules say to do.

Then the Space marine player doesn't declare a tank shock for the second Land Raider, pivots it 90 degrees on the spot, and drives it forward as far as it will go. So the words "Turning does not reduce the vehicle's move." does or does not mean that the second Land Raider moves just as far as the first one?

Note: Pay close attention to the fact that if a tank was going to be moving in a straight line anyway, the only penalty associated with a Tank Shock is the need to declare a distance before moving.

solkan wrote:So the words "Turning does not reduce the vehicle's move." does or does not mean that the second Land Raider moves just as far as the first one?

They will both move the exact same distance, and have the front of the vehicle at approximately (human error) the same distance from his table edge.

mgraham wrote:

kambien wrote:

mgraham wrote:

kambien wrote:
If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong.

Which page in the rulebook can I read about measuring from where you started to where you finished?

i'll guess in the movement section unless you measure movement after you moved

You'll guess? What do you mean you'll guess? I'm looking at the movement section of the rulebook right now; I see nothing about "If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong". You're telling me that my scenarios all go against raw, but you can't tell me where your so called "rule" is written in the rulebook.

i guess because my book is mostly destroyed so i can't just look it up. Are you saying it is against raw to measure the distance you declare you are moving ?

kambien wrote:
Simple question for your example. Do you measure the move before you touch the model or after you already started moving it ? Because i play you have to measure before you start moving the modle , unless someone has a rule for doing otherwise. So its actually really difficult to exceed the allowed movement. My book is pretty shoddy atm so i could be missing something .

It doesn't matter for me, because I measure my vehicle's movement from the center point.

This is the difficulty with claiming that pivoting changes the distance you are allowed to move; the AMOUNT by which a pivot alters your move changes according to where you measure from! And there's no rule that says you have to measure from any specific spot.

Assume that you start perpendicular to your line of travel, pivot, and then move, ok? Furthermore, for the purpose of this exercise we'll assume the vehicle in question is 4" long.

According to the general reading (ie you are allowed to pivot and then move your full distance), you pivot on the spot and then move forward; you will gain half the length of the vehicle, or 2". The front of your vehicle ends up 14" ahead of where the side of your vehicle was before you moved.

According to your reading (measure, then pivot and move freely so that the point from which you measured ends up within your maximum move from the point it began the turn at);

If you measure from the front, the front will end up 12" away from where the side was before the move.

But if you measure from the center, the front will end up 14" away from where the side was last turn. Why? Because the center didn't move at all.

And if you measure from the rear, the front will end up 16" away, because the pivot moved the rear of your vehicle backwards!

Please note that according to your interpretation, all three of these moves are legal.

kambien wrote:

mgraham wrote:

kambien wrote:

mgraham wrote:

kambien wrote:
If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong.

Which page in the rulebook can I read about measuring from where you started to where you finished?

i'll guess in the movement section unless you measure movement after you moved

You'll guess? What do you mean you'll guess? I'm looking at the movement section of the rulebook right now; I see nothing about "If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong". You're telling me that my scenarios all go against raw, but you can't tell me where your so called "rule" is written in the rulebook.

i guess because my book is mostly destroyed so i can't just look it up. Are you saying it is against raw to measure the distance you declare you are moving ?

I'm saying there is no rule in the rulebook that states, "If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong". The rulebook does state that "vehicles turn by pivoting", "turning does not reduce a vehicle's move", "pivoting does not count as moving", and "a vehicle that only pivots does not count as moving".

In my original post, I said, "I don't understand how one can argue against any of these scenarios if they have read page 57 of the big rulebook. ". Guess that page is destroyed in your rulebook.

mgraham wrote:

kambien wrote:

mgraham wrote:

kambien wrote:

mgraham wrote:

kambien wrote:
If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong.

Which page in the rulebook can I read about measuring from where you started to where you finished?

i'll guess in the movement section unless you measure movement after you moved

You'll guess? What do you mean you'll guess? I'm looking at the movement section of the rulebook right now; I see nothing about "If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong". You're telling me that my scenarios all go against raw, but you can't tell me where your so called "rule" is written in the rulebook.

i guess because my book is mostly destroyed so i can't just look it up. Are you saying it is against raw to measure the distance you declare you are moving ?

I'm saying there is no rule in the rulebook that states, "If you can use a ruler and measure from where you were to where you are and it's further then the allowed movement , you have done something wrong". The rulebook does state that "vehicles turn by pivoting", "turning does not reduce a vehicle's move", "pivoting does not count as moving", and "a vehicle that only pivots does not count as moving".

In my original post, I said, "I don't understand how one can argue against any of these scenarios if they have read page 57 of the big rulebook. ". Guess that page is destroyed in your rulebook.

you are correct it does not say that . Page 57 does includeTurning does not reduce the vehicles move, This means that a vehicle may combine forward and reverse movement in the same turn provided that it does not exceed it's maximum move.
It also says on page 11 under movement distance that "it is percectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else ( even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move at all.

also you are only partialy correct in your previous statements .
Vehicles turn by pivoting - is correct
Turning does not reduce a vehicles move - is also correct
pivoting does not count as moving - this is incorrect , it should say Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving , so a vehicle that only pivots in the movement phase counts as stationary(however immoblize vehicles may not even pivot )
A vehicle that only pivots does not count as moving - This should be included in the above statement because it's in the same sentence .
i am having issues reading the top of page 57 so if it says something useful go ahead and qoute it for me .

How ever with both rules telling me not to exceed movement and being able to measure i am allowed to measure max distance from the hull of a vehicle in every direction to determine max movement . JSo if for any reason i go beyond that , i have just broken RAW because i don't have a rules that tells me otherwise.

kambien wrote:also you are only partialy correct in your previous statements .
Vehicles turn by pivoting - is correct
Turning does not reduce a vehicles move - is also correct
pivoting does not count as moving - this is incorrect , it should say Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving , so a vehicle that only pivots in the movement phase counts as stationary(however immoblize vehicles may not even pivot )
A vehicle that only pivots does not count as moving - This should be included in the above statement because it's in the same sentence .
i am having issues reading the top of page 57 so if it says something useful go ahead and qoute it for me .

Turning does not reduce a vehicles movement, and it does not add to a vehicles movement... Turning has no effect on a vehicles movement, except to show where the vehicle is pointing.

No one has ever said to move more than the maximum move. If you think someone has, please quote where they have.
You're showing a gross misunderstanding of how vehicle movement works.

rigeld2 wrote:

kambien wrote:also you are only partialy correct in your previous statements .
Vehicles turn by pivoting - is correct
Turning does not reduce a vehicles move - is also correct
pivoting does not count as moving - this is incorrect , it should say Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving , so a vehicle that only pivots in the movement phase counts as stationary(however immoblize vehicles may not even pivot )
A vehicle that only pivots does not count as moving - This should be included in the above statement because it's in the same sentence .
i am having issues reading the top of page 57 so if it says something useful go ahead and qoute it for me .

Turning does not reduce a vehicles movement, and it does not add to a vehicles movement... Turning has no effect on a vehicles movement, except to show where the vehicle is pointing.

No one has ever said to move more than the maximum move. If you think someone has, please quote where they have.
You're showing a gross misunderstanding of how vehicle movement works.

Are you asking for me to find somewhere in the previous posts to find exactly stated "move more then allowed max move" ?
How about acknowledge that the said unit has indeed moved further then allowed but claim is legal because pivoting is free.
No one has come right out and said move more then the max allowed to move , so i cannot answer your first question.
but they are doing so anyways , under the illusion that they get to add frontal displacement to there max move thereby going further then they are allowed to move.