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Lately I have seen players turning their vehicles sideways before their movement begins, move "forward" their full distance, then turn their vehicles facing forward again at the end of movement, giving them an extra 1 to 2 inches of movement depending on hull size. It has happened to me a few times allowing tanks that may have been out of firing distance to suddenly be able to hit my units.

Reading from the little book, it says that "pivoting alone on the spot does not count as moving", but this just seems like gaming the rules for advantage. So is this tactic legal?

davidgr33n wrote:Reading from the little book, it says that "pivoting alone on the spot does not count as moving", but this just seems like gaming the rules for advantage. So is this tactic legal?

Using Eternal Warrior to ignore Instant Death seems like gaming the rules for advantage when I play Tyranids.

It is legal. (Though it can be done wrong)

Shoot them while they are sideways.

Yes, but "Eternal Warrior" usr deals specifically to counter the Instant Death rule. To me, turning the vehicle to make a vehicle that is only supposed to move 12" and then gets nearly 15" from its move is like putting a modified turret that is 4" long on my Predator because I can...

davidgr33n wrote:Yes, but "Eternal Warrior" usr deals specifically to counter the Instant Death rule. To me, turning the vehicle to make a vehicle that is only supposed to move 12" and then gets nearly 15" from its move is like putting a modified turret that is 4" long on my Predator because I can...

I was making a silly point.

The rules you stated are [just as] clear, if somewhat mis-applied.

In simple states, it is perfectly acceptable to make a blatant example of a deploy sideways then turn fire. That will have bonus range without moving.
Nothing can possible say otherwise, but modeling.

Do that after moving. Or before. I forget, but it really doesn't matter.

Perfectly legal and very common. Just remember to take it into account when you deploy or during your own turn in games. If you expect and plan for it, it doesn't have a massive impact.

Lately I have seen players turning their vehicles sideways before their movement begins, move "forward" their full distance, then turn their vehicles facing forward again at the end of movement, giving them an extra 1 to 2 inches of movement depending on hull size

This needs more explanation. What everyone above is referring to is pivoting to face a different directing, and then moving 12" in that direction, and the front of your vehicle is 13-13.5 inches in that direction closer to the opponent than at the start of the turn. Perfectly legal.

You're describing something odder, I think. Are they really pivoting back to the original position? Because if you pivot, move 12", and pivot back, you haven't gained any additional move. If they do, they are doing it incorrectly to gain an unfair advantage.

Completely 100 percent legal. People do it all the time and it is well within the raw and is accepted.

Did BoLS spawn this thread?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/02/bols-academy-9-vehicle-shenanigans.html

Its simple... front of hull to front of hull cannot exceed the movement distance, as per page 12. If they move that Razorback more than 6", can't fire. Too bad, so sad.

If you look at page 57 it also says that pivoting ALONE does not count as movement.... any other movement IS movement and cannot exceed the combat speed to still fire and cannot exceed maximum movement.

RAW and RAI. I've stuck to my guns on this, and so far, I reminder and quick "please, look at pages 12 and 57, and tell me how you can do that" is all its ever taken. Every still plays me, but they know they can't fudge movement on me. I don't make people measure every model, but I don't let them cheat me either.

I just allow it most of the time just to avoid the argument it brings, but no, it's not a legal move as the model exceeds its movement value.

Yep it sucks but people will never give up on it. Just plan on it being used and plan accordingly.

Lobukia wrote:Its simple... front of hull to front of hull cannot exceed the movement distance, as per page 12.

It does not say this at all. It shows you that you should measure from the hull to the hull, not from the front to the back.

Lobukia wrote: If they move that Razorback more than 6", can't fire. Too bad, so sad.

How about back of the hull to back of the hull? There is no "right" way to measure. You can measure from the front of the hull or the back of the hull. But if I am sideways and I pivot, and then I measure from the back of the hull, I am going to be "cheating" as you put it. Even more common, is measuring from the center of the vehicle (where you pivot). If you do it there, it is also legal.

By your logic, if I measure from the back of the hull, I can start sideways, then move up 12", then pivot, and since the back of my tank is about 2-3" behind where I originally moved, I can continue to move, since where I measured from is not 12" away, exactly.

The point is, this tactic is legal. It is not cheating in any way, shape or form. It leaves a sour taste in some peoples' mouths, but it is legal.

Edit: The easiest method is to measure from the center. It is universal (give or take a micrometer) and illustrates why this tactic works. If you're looking for specifics, check out page 56. It simply says "measure to and from the hull." Nothing about back, middle, side or front. You measure from where you measure. If you measure from the front, it looks like you gain ground. If you measure from the back, it looks like you lose ground. If you measure from the middle, everything works out.

1-2 inches is nothing. Try doing this with a ghost ark.

The ghost ark is about 8-10 inches long on a 2 inch base somewhere in the middle.

Lets say it's facing forward 12" from an enemy unit. If I measure from the tip of the hull 6" then PLACE THE MODEL SIDEWAYS, then rotate it to face forward. From the starting point of the tip of the hull to the ending point of the tip of the hull, it will have probably moved 10 inches.

I would not do this because from the start of the move to the end of the move, the hull moved 10". If I'm moving it the full 12", at the end of my move it will probably have moved 16". It's obviously cheating.

I re-read BRB p12 and p57. I don't see this as cheating. I would be willing to hear more about it, but to call this cheating vs RAW seems like assumptions are being made.

Nemesor Dave wrote:1-2 inches is nothing. Try doing this with a ghost ark.

The ghost ark is about 8-10 inches long on a 2 inch base somewhere in the middle.

Lets say it's facing forward 12" from an enemy unit. If I measure from the tip of the hull 6" then PLACE THE MODEL SIDEWAYS, then rotate it to face forward. From the starting point of the tip of the hull to the ending point of the tip of the hull, it will have probably moved 10 inches.

I would not do this because from the start of the move to the end of the move, the hull moved 10". If I'm moving it the full 12", at the end of my move it will probably have moved 16". It's obviously cheating.

How so?

1) The ghost ark deployed sideways -- Nothing wrong with that
2) You pivot on the spot to face forward -- Rules say that pivoting does not count as moving...nothing wrong with that.
3) You move 12" forward measuring hull-to-hull -- Nothing wrong with that.

I don't see how the above violates any rules in the book.

And really all you've done is move your giant bunker closer to the enemy and putting you well within melta range of mech troops or very close to assault troops. Sure you "gained" movement, but you're you're risking your 115 point repair bunker.

Pros and Cons here. Pros and Cons.

Nungunz wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:1-2 inches is nothing. Try doing this with a ghost ark.

The ghost ark is about 8-10 inches long on a 2 inch base somewhere in the middle.

Lets say it's facing forward 12" from an enemy unit. If I measure from the tip of the hull 6" then PLACE THE MODEL SIDEWAYS, then rotate it to face forward. From the starting point of the tip of the hull to the ending point of the tip of the hull, it will have probably moved 10 inches.

I would not do this because from the start of the move to the end of the move, the hull moved 10". If I'm moving it the full 12", at the end of my move it will probably have moved 16". It's obviously cheating.

How so?

1) The ghost ark deployed sideways -- Nothing wrong with that
2) You pivot on the spot to face forward -- Rules say that pivoting does not count as moving...nothing wrong with that.
3) You move 12" forward measuring hull-to-hull -- Nothing wrong with that.

I don't see how the above violates any rules in the book.

And really all you've done is move your giant bunker closer to the enemy and putting you well within melta range of mech troops or very close to assault troops. Sure you "gained" movement, but you're you're risking your 115 point repair bunker.

Pros and Cons here. Pros and Cons.

You're not seeing it.

1) I deploy sideways.
2) I free rotate forward, gaining 4 inches.
3) I move 6" and place the model perpendicular, sideways. Tip of hull to forward facing side of hull is correctly only 6".
4) I free rotate forward gaining 4 inches. Tip of hull start to tip of hull finish is 10".

Nemesor, that doesn't make any sense, unless you're moving the model as you pivot.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Nemesor, that doesn't make any sense, unless you're moving the model as you pivot.

The Ghost Ark is long and narrow with the pivot point in the middle. I don't have my base glued on, so I don't even have to lift it up to spin the model on the base. No way does it move while pivoting. It's the same as a land speeder without the base glued on. You can spin the model on the base.

Perhaps someone else can better explain the whole gain distance while moving.

Entirely legal, and entirely known about since 3rd ed. 1998. 14 years.

It is a necessary consequence of the simplified vehicle rules, and the studio are fully aware of it.

So no, ND, it is not "obviously" cheating - it isnt cheating at all. You are talking displacement, not movement. The rules care about movement 99.9% of the time, and only care aboutdisplacement when they explicitly state so - e.g. turboboost and hitting vehicles in CC

ND, I wasted my time building this diagram to show how your steps don't work:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Entirely legal, and entirely known about since 3rd ed. 1998. 14 years.

It is a necessary consequence of the simplified vehicle rules, and the studio are fully aware of it.

So no, ND, it is not "obviously" cheating - it isnt cheating at all. You are talking displacement, not movement. The rules care about movement 99.9% of the time, and only care aboutdisplacement when they explicitly state so - e.g. turboboost and hitting vehicles in CC

You can pivot while you move any number of times, which makes this seem legal. However, if you measure the starting most forward point against the ending most forward point in this case you've clearely moved beyond your allowed move.

Legal to turn. Legal to measure 12" from front of hull to side of hull place model turned. Legal to turn again. Starting most forward point of hull, to ending most forward point of hull being 16" is not legal. They are making legal moves to result in an illegal result.

Read As Written it is legal.

But anyone that does this smells of desperation...
In friendly games, its sad.
In tournaments.... well so be it, but getting points deducted for sportsmanship.

"Everyone does it so its ok?" that logic is why the world is awful...

As for how much extra distance is moved *assuming we pivot from center of model.

Then the total extra distance is exactly 50% of vehicle's length.

this is a legit tactic, just ask dash who use's it for his raider rush

Nemesor Dave wrote:However, if you measure the starting most forward point against the ending most forward point in this case you've clearely moved beyond your allowed move.

This is the assumption I was referring to earlier. Please find me the rule that says movement is measured from most forward point to most forward point. It's not.

Since pivoting does not reduce distance moved, I believe the PRO position has made the (logical) inference that it is measured from model center to model center. More specifically, it is a measure of any and all forward or backwards movement on the part of the model, with an unlimited number of pivots that do not change the model's central point location.

This is part of the reason that a particularly evil RAW opponent can point and laugh when you deploy with one of your side armor edges flush with a table edge. You can never turn that vehicle.

Here you go MasterSlowPoke.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

foolishmortal wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:However, if you measure the starting most forward point against the ending most forward point in this case you've clearely moved beyond your allowed move.

This is the assumption I was referring to earlier. Please find me the rule that says movement is measured from most forward point to most forward point. It's not.

Since pivoting does not reduce distance moved, I believe the PRO position has made the (logical) inference that it is measured from model center to model center. More specifically, it is a measure of any and all forward or backwards movement on the part of the model, with an unlimited number of pivots that do not change the model's central point location.

This is part of the reason that a particularly evil RAW opponent can point and laugh when you deploy with one of your side armor edges flush with a table edge. You can never turn that vehicle.

You don't have to deploy sideways even. You can deploy forward, measure, move and place sideways, pivot forward. There is no downside.

LunaHound wrote:As for how much extra distance is moved *assuming we pivot from center of model.

Then the total extra distance is exactly 50% of vehicle's length.

Actually it's half length minus half width.

It looks to me like you are doing it wrong in step 2+3. You cannot move the model sideways or pivot it while you are moving. You must stop, pivot, move, stop, pivot, move, etc

foolishmortal wrote:It looks to me like you are doing it wrong in step 2+3. You cannot move the model sideways or pivot it while you are moving. You must stop, pivot, move, stop, pivot, move, etc

For the sake of this, step 1 is unnecessary. If you can't pivot while moving, this is not a legal move.

Macok wrote:Actually it's half length minus half width.

Math FTW, it's like a super-power


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you do have to be careful to pivot at the center of the vehicle. In the diagrams posted above, it looks like the pivot point is off center.

I agree that many people are sloppy and careless in their movement of vehicles, especially in casual games, but you are looking at the wrong thing. If this is still not clear tomorrow, I will generate some pretty pictures.

I don't know. Sounds pretty cheesy to me

ND - "You can pivot while you move any number of times, which makes this seem legal. However, if you measure the starting most forward point against the ending most forward point in this case you've clearely moved beyond your allowed move. "

So, youre breaking the rules by changing where you are measuring from, and claim that by thus breaking the rules you can show how someone else has broken the rules?

Wrong.

This has been legal since 1998.