Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here's a simple concept that should end this whole argument: if you think you are getting away with something, its probably a sign that you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.


Thankfully, I haven't confronted any one pulling these shenanigans, but the base point is the same. If the vehicle moves too far, it is an illegal move.

So can we all stop trying to bend every rule and just play the freaking game?

This was argued out a while ago in Dashofpepper's Dark Eldar Tactica, as Raiders are another vehicle that get a reasonably big 'bonus move' from pivoting. The diagrams in Dash's guide make things a lot clearer.

In that thread Dash explains about making a single pivot at the start of your movement to gain a few extra inches movement. RAW, this is competely legal and has been for several editions. There's a copy of the sort of relevent parts in the spoiler thing below, I just spoilered it so it doesnt take up miles of space




But what I think the OP is talking about is something like this:



Pic 1 is where you start sideways right up against the imaginary "edge of deployment zone" line

Pic 2 is where you pivot around the vehicles center point before moving (completely legal). With rectangular vehicles vehicles, this means you're hull is already further forward (2" inches further forward in a Raiders case) than it was when deployed.

Pic 3 is moving 12" forward and ending up facing sideways again (I'm not sure if this is legal, but cant find anything to say it isn't)

Pic 4 is after pivoting yet again at the end of your 12" movement to face forwards, gaining more distance again (roughly 4" in total when using a Raider)

This example seems to get more people annoyed than the first (obviously as you're getting twice the amount of "bonus movement"), but I'm not sure if this is legal. I cant see anything that suggests it isn't, but still it seems to bug some players.

Hopefully the pics make it a little clearer for some

1) It isnt an illegal move, as has been proven every single time this has been asked.
2) You havent moved too far. The vehicle has displaced at points further than your movement rate, but then it has also at points displaced not as far as your movement rate. Luckily the rules dont care about displacement for 99.99% of the time
3) We are doing. The Studio are fully 100% aware of this, and dont see it as a problem - given the alternative is the painful, slow vehcile movment of 2nd ed.

This is the way the game has been played since 1998

If all pivots take place at the center of the vehicle, you shouldn't gain any additional inches (as shown by previous diagram). Rule book says, "Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather then 'wheeling' around."
Anything else is rule breaking. Otherwise, a player could alternate nose and tail pivots to move infinite distance while claiming a combat move.

Gorechild wrote:
Pic 3 is moving 12" forward and ending up facing sideways again (I'm not sure if this is legal, but cant find anything to say it isn't)

Ah, now I see. It doesn't quite work for me though. Pivoting isn't some magical ability that just happens. It's specifically part of the vehicles movement. You can sidle up to the line sideways, as in pic 3, but pivoting on the spot puts your hull outside of 12 inches from the original line drawn. Pivoting is part of movement,"Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move." Not after, not before, but as. Taken RAW, that should disallow a pivot to move you beyond 12 inches.

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - "You can pivot while you move any number of times, which makes this seem legal. However, if you measure the starting most forward point against the ending most forward point in this case you've clearely moved beyond your allowed move. "

So, youre breaking the rules by changing where you are measuring from, and claim that by thus breaking the rules you can show how someone else has broken the rules?

Wrong.

This has been legal since 1998.

Is this an argument? What rule are you referring to?

Ok, let me see if I can explain RAW vehicle movement.

The short answer is read BRB (5th) p57, 63 and 68.

The medium summery is...
1) A vehiclce can move forward, backwards and pivot
2) Pivoting does not reduce the vehicle's move

I don't know off hand how long a land raider is, but assuming it is 7" long, a land raider that pivots 180 degress then moves forward 1" counts as moving 1", not 8"



Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:2) You havent moved too far. The vehicle has displaced at points further than your movement rate, but then it has also at points displaced not as far as your movement rate. Luckily the rules dont care about displacement for 99.99% of the time

I wouldn't estimate measuring vehicle movement for assault to hit rolls .01% of the time, but yes. Check p63 BRB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, oh, turbo boosting minimum movement also p76

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here you go MasterSlowPoke.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

foolishmortal wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:However, if you measure the starting most forward point against the ending most forward point in this case you've clearely moved beyond your allowed move.

This is the assumption I was referring to earlier. Please find me the rule that says movement is measured from most forward point to most forward point. It's not.

Since pivoting does not reduce distance moved, I believe the PRO position has made the (logical) inference that it is measured from model center to model center. More specifically, it is a measure of any and all forward or backwards movement on the part of the model, with an unlimited number of pivots that do not change the model's central point location.

This is part of the reason that a particularly evil RAW opponent can point and laugh when you deploy with one of your side armor edges flush with a table edge. You can never turn that vehicle.

You don't have to deploy sideways even. You can deploy forward, measure, move and place sideways, pivot forward. There is no downside.

if this interpretation of the rules is correct, then you can in theory move infinitely, just pivot a lot during your movement phase.

step 1: vehicle turns forward.
step 2: pivot while moving 0.1" forward, ending with your side 0.1 ahead of where your nose used to be.
step 3: pivot vehicle forward again.
step 4: repeat as necessary.

So it's clearly incorrect.

Palmar wrote:if this interpretation of the rules is correct, then you can in theory move infinitely, just pivot a lot during your movement phase.

step 1: vehicle turns forward.
step 2: pivot while moving 0.1" forward, ending with your side 0.1 ahead of where your nose used to be.
step 3: pivot vehicle forward again.
step 4: repeat as necessary.

So it's clearly incorrect.

The problem is that he's not pivoting around the center of the vehicle, which is required by the rules. See below.

davidgr33n wrote:Lately I have seen players turning their vehicles sideways before their movement begins, move "forward" their full distance, then turn their vehicles facing forward again at the end of movement, giving them an extra 1 to 2 inches of movement depending on hull size. It has happened to me a few times allowing tanks that may have been out of firing distance to suddenly be able to hit my units.

Reading from the little book, it says that "pivoting alone on the spot does not count as moving", but this just seems like gaming the rules for advantage. So is this tactic legal?

The group of people I play with always measure from the centre of the model to avoid things like this. Doesnt matter if your turning or standing still, the centre of the model still stays in the same position. Has worked flawlessly so far.

ND - "Is this an argument? What rule are you referring to? "

Yes, it is an argument. The rule about where you measure your move from - or have you forgotten that you pick a consistent point to measure from?

You are breaking a rule (changing how you measure) in order to claim someone else is breaking a rule. Oddly enough that isnt a particularly valid argument.

Oh, and by the way - your argument still doesnt work, as if it were true then you are also making a pivot reduce available movement - when you are told it doesnt. If you did some research on this 14 year old topic you would see the number of times it has been discussed.

Just for reference (as this seems to come up over and over again), here's the poll on the subject:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/294492.page


A pretty healthy majority feel it is fine to pivot at the start of the game to essentially gain a bit of extra movement. Although if you're always pivoting on the center of the vehicle you're never technically 'gaining' any more movement from that point on.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here you go MasterSlowPoke.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

foolishmortal wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:However, if you measure the starting most forward point against the ending most forward point in this case you've clearely moved beyond your allowed move.

This is the assumption I was referring to earlier. Please find me the rule that says movement is measured from most forward point to most forward point. It's not.

Since pivoting does not reduce distance moved, I believe the PRO position has made the (logical) inference that it is measured from model center to model center. More specifically, it is a measure of any and all forward or backwards movement on the part of the model, with an unlimited number of pivots that do not change the model's central point location.

This is part of the reason that a particularly evil RAW opponent can point and laugh when you deploy with one of your side armor edges flush with a table edge. You can never turn that vehicle.

You don't have to deploy sideways even. You can deploy forward, measure, move and place sideways, pivot forward. There is no downside.

This is illegal. By doing a series of these moves, you could add many feet, not just inches to your movement. Pivot forward, advance forward 1" while 'pivoting while moveing' to get the ark sideways, pivot forward, rinse and repeat.

You can gain a couple of inches off the first pivot (sideways to forward). After that, if you do it by the rules (pivot from the center point of the vehicle), you are unable to gain any additional distance as the pivot back and forth will never change the actual position of the model.

mikhaila wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here you go MasterSlowPoke.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

foolishmortal wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:However, if you measure the starting most forward point against the ending most forward point in this case you've clearely moved beyond your allowed move.

This is the assumption I was referring to earlier. Please find me the rule that says movement is measured from most forward point to most forward point. It's not.

Since pivoting does not reduce distance moved, I believe the PRO position has made the (logical) inference that it is measured from model center to model center. More specifically, it is a measure of any and all forward or backwards movement on the part of the model, with an unlimited number of pivots that do not change the model's central point location.

This is part of the reason that a particularly evil RAW opponent can point and laugh when you deploy with one of your side armor edges flush with a table edge. You can never turn that vehicle.

You don't have to deploy sideways even. You can deploy forward, measure, move and place sideways, pivot forward. There is no downside.

This is illegal. By doing a series of these moves, you could add many feet, not just inches to your movement. Pivot forward, advance forward 1" while 'pivoting while moveing' to get the ark sideways, pivot forward, rinse and repeat.

Good point. Lets say, a 6" move with a ghost ark and you're nice and only move 1" at a time, gaining 4 extra inches each move. That's only 24". I will barely be able to get within rapid fire range 1st turn.

Pretty bad. I wouldn't play this way at all in good sportsmanship.

don_mondo wrote:You can gain a couple of inches off the first pivot (sideways to forward). After that, if you do it by the rules (pivot from the center point of the vehicle), you are unable to gain any additional distance as the pivot back and forth will never change the actual position of the model.

Well, the first turn you can gave forward displacement, the second turn sideways displacement, then the third turn forward displacement.

So yeah.

rigeld2 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:You can gain a couple of inches off the first pivot (sideways to forward). After that, if you do it by the rules (pivot from the center point of the vehicle), you are unable to gain any additional distance as the pivot back and forth will never change the actual position of the model.

Well, the first turn you can gave forward displacement, the second turn sideways displacement, then the third turn forward displacement.

So yeah.

No, the second turn wil gain you nothing since it should put you right back where you were to begin with. So then the third turn puts you in the same exact spot that the first turn did.

don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:You can gain a couple of inches off the first pivot (sideways to forward). After that, if you do it by the rules (pivot from the center point of the vehicle), you are unable to gain any additional distance as the pivot back and forth will never change the actual position of the model.

Well, the first turn you can gave forward displacement, the second turn sideways displacement, then the third turn forward displacement.

So yeah.

No, the second turn wil gain you nothing since it should put you right back where you were to begin with. So then the third turn puts you in the same exact spot that the first turn did.

Yeah, it went wrong in my head. Nevermind.
(you'll gain sideways movement, but not any more forward movement)

"Good point. Lets say, a 6" move with a ghost ark and you're nice and only move 1" at a time, gaining 4 extra inches each move. That's only 24". I will barely be able to get within rapid fire range 1st turn.
"

So, you dont realise youre required to pivot about the centre of your vehicle, and that therefore if you pivot twice (90 degree, -90 degree) then you havent changed position at all?

Still breaking rules....

The pivot trick gives you a once only boost in a direction. Thats it. Repeatedly pivoting does not increase this displacement.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here you go MasterSlowPoke.

See now this right here is illegal as you cannot "place the model sideways" after moving. You can only move straight forward or backwards, if you want to change direction you must pivot. I agree that what you have shown there is 100% illegal.

However MasterSlowPoke's diagram is 100% correct and legal.

LunaHound wrote:Read As Written it is legal.

But anyone that does this smells of desperation...
In friendly games, its sad.
In tournaments.... well so be it, but getting points deducted for sportsmanship.

I've honestly never seen people complain about this in a "friendly" (why the hell do people use that term? A game is a game is a game....the same ruleset applies in all cases.) And I've never seen someone docked sportsmanship points in a tournament......if you can call an event that uses soft scores a competitive event a "tournament". Sportsmanship IMO should be a yellow card/red card deal (two yellows and you're booted from the tourny or one red and you're done) determined by judges/TOs rather than affect overall scores. Could also have a sportsmanship award or be part of the Best Overall.....but not something that affects Best General.

"Everyone does it so its ok?" that logic is why the world is awful...

It's allowed by the rulebook, it's no problem. I don't care if my opponent uses this tactic. I don't use it much as it usually doesn't benefit my army (and IGs boxy vehicles don't can much distance).

One more chime in. I play in the same pool as poster OverwatchCNC. Big 40k community. Years & years of experience.

It's legal. DoP's diagram shows it best.

To avoid getting assaulted by contents of SRGs, LRs or DE raiders, just be sure to drop back those extra ~2 inches.

Like Nos has said, it has been ingrained in the game for 14 years.

If you think it's douchey, then chipmunk your opponent on sportsmanship.

'Course, that'd be douchey.

Palmar wrote: step 1: vehicle turns forward.
step 2: pivot while moving 0.1" forward, ending with your side 0.1 ahead of where your nose used to be.
step 3: pivot vehicle forward again.
step 4: repeat as necessary.

So it's clearly incorrect.

This is why it's illegal, you could gain movement across the entire table.

Lets break this down simply. By measuing the movement form front to side you say thats legal, following that logic I could say I move 0" just by placing the side of the vehicle where the front was. Wash and repeat I could move the entire table (and back again) and still shoot with all weapons

vehicles turn by pivoting at their center

RAW you can deploy sideways and pivot.

That however is not free movement and anyone who pivots then moves, then measures how far the vehicle mo ed from end to where it was after pivoting has technically broken the rules. Distance moved is measured from front facing if a model to front facing from start of move to end of move. The only diagrams of how movement takes place in the BRB depict this. Diagrams and tables in the BRB are rules.

By placing your model sideways and pivottinv you have moved some distance as the fron facing of the vehicle is no longer in the same place.

It is not possible to pivot to gain extra movement unless you ignore parts of the movement rules

blaktoof wrote: vehicles turn by pivoting at their center

RAW you can deploy sideways and pivot.

That however is not free movement and anyone who pivots then moves has technically broken the rules. Distance moved is measured from front facing if a model to front facing from start of move to end of move. The only diagrams of how movement takes place in the BRB depict this. Diagrams and tables in the BRB are rules.

By placing your model sideways and pivottinv you have moved some distance as the fron facing of the vehicle is no longer in the same place.

It is not possible to pivot to gain extra movement unless you ignore parts of the movement rules

I believe we have seen a couple of references in this thread where exactly the opposite has been stated. Please provide page references to your claims, as they have. Preferably disproving those points made by previous posters.

blaktoof wrote: vehicles turn by pivoting at their center

RAW you can deploy sideways and pivot.

That however is not free movement and anyone who pivots then moves, then measures how far the vehicle mo ed from end to where it was after pivoting has technically broken the rules. Distance moved is measured from front facing if a model to front facing from start of move to end of move. The only diagrams of how movement takes place in the BRB depict this. Diagrams and tables in the BRB are rules.

By placing your model sideways and pivottinv you have moved some distance as the fron facing of the vehicle is no longer in the same place.

It is not possible to pivot to gain extra movement unless you ignore parts of the movement rules

This is flat out wrong.

As posted earlier, if a vehicle pivots 180 degrees, do you now measure from where the front was to where it is now? (i.e. you have just moved the length of the vehicle by your definition).

blaktoof wrote: By placing your model sideways and pivottinv you have moved some distance as the fron facing of the vehicle is no longer in the same place.

Right here, you are contradicting the rules. Per the brb, pivotting is not movement. However, you have just stated that if a vehicle pivots, it has moved some distance. So, by your logic, if I pivot a land raider 90 degrees, it has now moved 2"? So, I can now only fire as if I moved at cruising speed?


Here is a little way to figure it out. Imagine moving a ghost ark, or any other vehicle on a flying stand. It is "sideways" to the direction you want to go. At this point in time, you take the ark of its stand. Now, all you have is a circular stand with a peg in the middle. Move that stand 6" in any direction you like. Now, put the ark back on in any facing you want. That is the amount of movement you would be allowed for "6 inches." In the case of any oblong vehicle, any movement you "gain" in one direction is offset by the movement "lost" in the perpendicular direction. While in some cases, it is more convenient to measure front to front, in these cases, the only TRUE measurement is going from center to center.

Vehicles may only move forwards and backwards, but they may pivot as much as they want without it counting as movement.

A landraider deployed at the edge of your deployment zone sideways may, on it's next turn, pivot 90 degrees and move it's full move.

There was a video on BOLS that got this wrong, and caused a gak storm. Don't worry, it's a trick that the current ruleset allows due to the wording on how vehicles pivoting works. It's legal.

juraigamer wrote:Vehicles may only move forwards and backwards

I am not sure that is explicitly true.

kirsanth wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Vehicles may only move forwards and backwards

I am not sure that is explicitly true.

It isn't at all.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:It isn't at all.

Page 57, second paragraph after the bullet points.

Nungunz wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:It isn't at all.

Page 57, second paragraph after the bullet points.

BRB wrote: This
means that a vehicle may combine forward and reverse
movement in the same turn providing it does not
exceed its maximum move.

That does not say what you think it says.

Nungunz wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:It isn't at all.

Page 57, second paragraph after the bullet points.

Being allowed to turn as many times as you like does not prevent you from moving sideways.