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blaktoof wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Pivots do not cost extra movement, but they count as movement "

No. Wrong. Incredibly wrong.

false. just false

Well given the rules sya the exact opposite to your position, with the relevant quotes being given a number of times now, I know who I will believe in this.

Pivoting does not count for movement, and does not cost you movement. I guess that means it doesnt cost you any movement then - your position makes it so it does.

Gameplay wise i would believe you have to pivot to point in the direction you are going to drive, and then you have to move the distance measured from a point, if you measure from the tip of a skimmer, that tip is what is going to reach the point you measured to, and not the back or middle of the skimmer. ( same for any other vehicle too )

So basically you cant move tip-to-tip and "gain" anything...
If you moved from tip-to-centre/back you are cheating.

also Page 57:

"Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model, Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than "wheeling" round, Turning does NOT reduce the vehicles`s move. This means that a vehicle can combine forward and reverse movement in the same turn providing it does not exceed its maximum move. PIVOTING ON THE SPOT ALONE DOES NOT COUNT AS MOVING, so a vehicle that only pivots in the movement phase counts as stationary ( however immobilised vehicles may not even pivot ). Just like other units, vehicles cannont move over friendly models."

However, you can Deploy "sideways" and be within the deploy zone and then pivot to gain a little distance, nothing in the rules say that you cant, but if you arent the first one to go, your vehicles got their side armor against the enemy.

Edit: made it easier to see the qoute from the rule book

The main problem in the interpretation has been stated. You must remember that you have to end your movement in same angle that you have started it. Whenever distance is calculated, the vehicle must stay in the same angle. If you're measuring from the center of the base, that amounts to the same thing.

To take this interpretation to a greater level, someone with a barge could start his move pointing forward, rotate 180 degree, calculate his distance from prow to prow, and then rotate another 180 degree. Therefore gaining the entire length of the barge. That is clearly cheating. Pivoting while calculating distance is therefore illegal. Pivoting before or after is legit.

Yes, you can gain a few inches by turning your vehicle before or after a move and that is legit.

It's also legit, to move (i.e calculate distance), rotate, move, rotate, and move again if the distance isn't exceeded.

@ Melek:

You said: "You must remember that you have to end your movement in same angle that you have started it."

Where is that in the rule book?

Meleck wrote:The main problem in the interpretation has been stated. You must remember that you have to end your movement in same angle that you have started it. Whenever distance is calculated, the vehicle must stay in the same angle. If you're measuring from the center of the base, that amounts to the same thing.

Uhhh.....wrong. Could you quote a page number for that?

No?

Oh....because it doesn't exist!

To take this interpretation to a greater level, someone with a barge could start his move pointing forward, rotate 180 degree, calculate his distance from prow to prow, and then rotate another 180 degree. Therefore gaining the entire length of the barge. That is clearly cheating. Pivoting while calculating distance is therefore illegal. Pivoting before or after is legit.

Once again, do you have page numbers for that?

It's also legit, to move (i.e calculate distance), rotate, move, rotate, and move again if the distance isn't exceeded.

Yes exactly, but those rotations cost no movement as pivoting doesn't not reduce movement nor does it count as moving. Page 57.

There actually is a reading of the rules that does limit vehicles to only moving forwards and backwards.

At the start of the vehicle rules we are told that vehicles follow the general rules, except where the vehicle rules change this. In a following paragraph we are then told that vehicles can pivot, move forwards and move backwards.


Two possibilities:


1) This does not put any kind of limit on vehicle movement, they merely are talking about some of the ways that a vehicle can move but they do not explicitly state that vehicles cant move sideways.


2) This means that vehicle movement is being described completely, since we atold that these rules do change the general rules. So vehicles can move forward, backwards and pivot during movement.






Unfortunately neither reading is clearly correct, since the limit to forward/ backward movement is implicit, not stated as clearly as we might wish.





Sliggoth


PS One other effect of sideways vehicular movement however would be the effect on ramming/ tank shocking. If a vehicle performs a ram we are told to aim the vehicle and then move the vehicle. We are limited to moving it in a straight line, but if vehicles can move sideways.....then remember that pivots are not movement. Pivots can occur during movement at any time, and the ramming rules do not discuss pivots. So if vehicles can move sideways, it follows that during a ram a vehicle can pivot thereby swinging sideways to tank shock extra units. Or it can also pivot to avoid terrain etc.

The limit on vehicles tank shocking straight forward is based upon the idea that vehciles can only move forward and backwards.

I always pivot before moving to gain that extra inch, doesn't break the rules or anything.

I'm quite confused over what is being argued here though.
You cannot pivot during movement of the model (that is the physical push of the model) you can only pivot in bursts. Plus the pivot is done in the centre of the model so I cannot quite work out how you can possibly get infinate movement.

From what I read it seems the guy is pivoting as he is phsyically pushing the model which if I remember is not allowed, you pivot before and after each movement.
E.g.
Pivot - Move inch - pivot - move 4 inches - pivot - move inch.

He seems to be be going
pivot - move inch while pivoting - pivot.
Sounds like his almost doing wheel-skids with his tanks.

I don't really see how infinite movement would be possible either (under the legal interpretation of the strategy).

While the initial pivot then move can legally add forward distance to models that are substantially longer than they are wide, I don't do it and I don't take kindly to opponents who do.

Remember that if someone isn't using the designated model for the vehicle then it's perfectly alright to call shennanigans on them for modeling for advantage. Most TOs will side in your favor. Dashofpepper had some issues with that a few years back with his "converted" venoms (it was before the venom model had come out so he wasn't entirely in the wrong) that were just old raiders and he was using the pivot for extra movement every time he moved them. It was perfectly legal but he was pushing it and his sportsmanship score suffered.

The thing is, maybe with the exception of a monolith I assume that a vehicle has to move in the direction its logicly meant to go (god knows if this is mentioned in the rulebook).
Therefore pivoting than moving is kind of expected as I doubt my raider can strafe its way around, the same as a leman-russ side-shuffling around corners.
Although no idea if this is actually written, I have this nagging feeling that I bet they haven't mentioned it.

Say you were deploying in table quarters. I dont think anyone would have an objection if you placed your rhino facing 'forward' and then turned it and moved it parallel to the long board edge. It is only when they are gaining on you that people feel cheated. It's cheesy but legit.

Pivoting alone does not count as moving.

There is nothing saying pivoting is a free movement, but there is something saying pivoting does not reduce your movement.

There is nothing saying you may gain movement from pivoting or movement from pivoting doesn't count towards a vehicles max movement.

There are limits on how each vehicle can move, and there is a line about ombining forward and backwards movement while turning not being allowed to exceed your maximum move.

Raw you cannot gain distance moved by pivoting, to due so violates not exceeding your vehicles max move.

I have yet to find this displacement lie people keep mentioning in the brb.

I have yet to find any text saying pivoting doesn't count as moving, other than the stateent that pivoting alone doesn't count as the model moving for stationary purposes. Which of course means you pivot your model about it's center point and do not move in any direction other than pivoting.

I have yet to see anyone quote a rule saying you can exceed your normal move distance by pivoting.

blaktoof wrote:Pivoting alone does not count as moving.

Correct.

There is nothing saying pivoting is a free movement, but there is something saying pivoting does not reduce your movement.

Page 57 BRB wrote:Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move,
just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on
the spot about their centre-point, rather than ‘wheeling’
round. Turning does not reduce the vehicle’s move.

Raw you cannot gain distance moved by pivoting, to due so violates not exceeding your vehicles max move.

Correct. Pivoting around your centerpoint, however does not increase movement distance.

I have yet to see anyone quote a rule saying you can exceed your normal move distance by pivoting.

I would care if this strawman were actually valid. No one is saying that you can increase your move distance.

"I have yet to find this displacement lie people keep mentioning in the brb.
"

So we're liars now? Displacement is a very simple term, and 40K MOVEMENT is not the same as displacement.

You are not increasing a vehicles move, you are increasing its displacement in one direction, while reducing (by the same amount) the displacement in another.

If your interpretation were correct, then pivoting WOULD decrease movement, when going round terrain - breaking arule. That is just ONE of the clues that you are wrong.

If you want to not play with this, fine - but calling people liars, and claiming they are cheating? Not a hope.

All I know is that I'm going to start scratch building looted wagons out of stretch limos. Oh what dont like that extra 6" in my movement?

Modelling for advantage. Enjoy not finding opponents to play with

You know what would solve this, VEHICLE BASES.
It would work, but...

I think people are confusing two different types of pivoting.

I think what is universally considered cheating is pivoting off an edge, and not from center. This creates a walking effect that could potentially give you extra movement.

Now, pivoting on center - which is how the brb specifically states you are to do it - will inherently give any oblong vehicle a gain or loss in movement without ever moving one inch. This is simple physics, geometry, whatever you want to call it.

Let's try a different example to see if we can't illustrate this point:

I have a land raider filled with terminators in it.
I pivot on center - as specifically stated by the rules how I am to do it - 90 degrees.
The terminators now disembark out the front, which used to be the back.

At this point in time:
a. My land raider can fire all its weapons as it has not moved, per the brb.
b. My terminators are disembarking 3 or so inches further than they would have, had the LR not moved.

How can this happen? I have magical non-movement?

Before we go any further, can we ALL agree to the following:

a. The LR has not moved yet, only pivoted. Therefore it is eligible to fire all of its weapons. Additionally, where my weapons are measured from may have gotten closer to the enemy, even though my LR has NOT moved, only pivoted.
b. My terminators have gained an additional few inches even though my LR has not moved.

Or, are you going to claim that since my weapons on the LR are closer to you, I have moved and can only fire 1 (plus 1 for PotM)? If you are holding to your claim that displacement is movement, you have to make this claim. But, since the rules say I can pivot and count as stationary, you would be incorrect.

Taking this one step further, since I have not moved yet (only pivoted), I am now entitled to move my full distance of the vehicle.

Mr.Church13 wrote:All I know is that I'm going to start scratch building looted wagons out of stretch limos. Oh what dont like that extra 6" in my movement?

You're using looted wagons? Okay....go nuts....I'll give you that "advantage"

To me it all comes down to intent. Sure lots of times players may end up gaining movement just by following the rules. Whenever you pivot an oblong vehicle and move max distance for whatever speed you want to move, you will probably gain some amount of distance, but that may or may not be the intent. Abusive (opinion) players are only getting significant free movement on their first turn unless they are changing direction by 90 degrees each turn (they can change direction by less but they won't get as much free movement).

Players that line up lengthy vehicles sideways along a deployment line and then do the pivot move usually know that they are getting extra distance and that is a significant motive behind their intent. Sure they may also be lining up that way to provide a lengthy amount of cover to whatever it is behind it, but we all know that lots of people use this in their deployment to squeak out extra movement or else this wouldn't be such a debate.

Yes it is legal, yes lots of times players will innocently benefit from it, yes lots of times people will blatantly take advantage of it on their deployment>pivot>movement. I consider it a WAAC move when done intentionally during deployment and 1st turn, despite it's legality.

This is not cheesy. In fact, cheese is merely a name people give to tactics they don't like for any number of reasons (e.g: i didn't know it worked like that; I don't like how it works; etc).

Either its legit or cheating, there is no in between.

For all the reasons already mentioned, you do change effective "displacement" without actually altering your movement by pivoting a non-square/non-circular object about its center axis. If you don't want to use this tactic, that's your own choice. But that choice is no different than not using any other option available to you.

There is no statement in the brb that pivoting doesn't count as moving, except if all you do is pivoting.

pivoting doesnt reduce a vehicles movement, does not mean pivoting can increase a vehicles movement.

raw you cannot exceed your max movement distance from where your model is before you touch it to where it is when you finish your movement.

There are no raw exceptions, including pivotting.

there is no comment about displacement anywhere in the movement section and although it is a real life term it is not a rule regarding any form of movement in the game.

You are not allowed RAW to exceed your allowed movement distance at the end of your. Move p57 brb.

Therefore if your vehicle has moved 14" when it can only go 12" you have not followed the rules. Its not a tactic, its violating RAW.

Start a Ghost Ark sideways.
Turn the Ghost Ark 90 degrees.
Move the Ghost Ark 6 inches.

What in that sequence is illegal?

blaktoof wrote:pivoting doesnt reduce a vehicles movement, does not mean pivoting can increase a vehicles movement.

You are wrong.

Rotating a rectangle is not allowed to reduce the center points forward move.

Math - and the rules - agree with my statement.'


Editing to add:
Moving a rectagle and turning it will always either increase or decrease an edge's movement. (Barring degree rotations that are multiples of 180)
It is against the rules to say it must decrease.

rigeld2 wrote:Start a Ghost Ark sideways.
Turn the Ghost Ark 90 degrees.
Move the Ghost Ark 6 inches.

What in that sequence is illegal?

Absolutely nothing
Say it again y'all

War!

It specifically states you cannot exceed the max movement at the end of your move. That is a specific rule.

I am aware it states turning during movement does not count against movement. I can't find anything saying turning before moving of at the end of movement doesn't reduce movement.

can you comment on the rules specifically stating on p57 that you cannot exceed your maximum movement at the end of the mo e. Because math and rules mean 12" movement is 12" of maximum distance moved not 14+"

No one has managed to find a single rule saying you can violate that specific statement.

Why would it be in there if it wasn't a rule.

blaktoof wrote:No one has managed to find a single rule saying you can violate that specific statement.

You don't.

No one tries to.

Because you can't. And no one is saying you can.

Pivot 90 degrees.
Move 6".

Please explain what is illegal about that statement.

The spot that is measured never moves more than 6 inches.
The vehicle turns around its center.
Math wins!

Editing to add:
Full disclosure, I argued against this for quite a while until I realized that its really hard to argue with mathematics.
Itself.

You measure movement from before you move to end of movement.

You turn by pivoting about the models center.

Your distance moved at the end of your move cannot exceed your move.

You are measuring movement from the center of the model to the center which there isn't actually a rule for. Good luck finding that.

Models are moved from the edge of their bases, and vehicles are moved from their front facing to their front facing RAW not from their center point to center point, refer to the movement diagram in the brb.