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Lanrak wrote:HI.
40k has 100s of pages of rules to cover its straight forward game play.(40k inspiring asthetic and straight forward game play are its stong points IMO.)
The same level of game play could be achived with less than 40 pages of rules.(If we used more apropriate game mechanics and resolution methods.)

Therfore 40k rules are unecissarily over complicated.(2 to 4 times more pages of rules than actualy necissary.)

Prove it.

Well, I have the rule book. The little Black Reach one. 112 pages.

Daunting for a new player. But I know this gak like the back of my hand.

Posting proof. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat550004a&prodId=prod1570027

I have a similar problem at my Club with one loud guy in particular... only the problem isn't GW/Warhammer... it's Matt Ward.

Don't you dare play a Ward codex around this guy, or he'll go 'Tsk, Ward' every time you do *anything* (he'll be hovering over your shoulder scrutinising your game 'cos nobody's playing with him). Oh and keep said Codex away from him physically too, or he'll grab it and flick through it, deriding everytihng inside (and ensuring that he interrupts whatever you're doing to voice his totally original assertions.

Make note Bandwagoners, some people will willingly play both with and against Ward 'dexes. Don't hate.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Lanrak wrote:HI.
40k has 100s of pages of rules to cover its straight forward game play.(40k inspiring asthetic and straight forward game play are its stong points IMO.)
The same level of game play could be achived with less than 40 pages of rules.(If we used more apropriate game mechanics and resolution methods.)

Therfore 40k rules are unecissarily over complicated.(2 to 4 times more pages of rules than actualy necissary.)

Prove it.

Well, let's look at another of GW's wargames - Epic Armageddon.

EA can be argued to be a more complex wargame than 40k (and heavens forbid we get into a discussion comparing EA to E40k or even older versions). If we take a look at the EA Compendium v2, we see that the entire ruleset - from what you need to play to tournament gaming - is 43 pages. That includes extra rules like spacecraft, drop landings, siege engines, and aircraft. The next 96 pages are the entirety of the game's army lists, from Space Marines to Squats.

So, EA manages to put into 138 pages what 40k cannot put into hundreds of pages in various rulebooks and codices.

I'd also put Mantic's rulesets up as an example. They mostly manage to do the same thing as 40k and fantasy (mostly) in a ~20 page free document.

Shadelkan wrote:In excellent news, my demos have caused an explosion of interest in the game, and the store goers are abuzz about it.

Bottom line - this is the objective. So you win. You are absolutely right. Some people have an overinflated sense of importance and their opinions. If you are having fun - and you are getting more players, you are doing something right.

Best of luck to you man!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadowbrand wrote:Well, I have the rule book. The little Black Reach one. 112 pages.

Daunting for a new player. But I know this gak like the back of my hand.

Posting proof. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat550004a&prodId=prod1570027

However, Chess, a game of the ages, with infinitely less flexibility of play comes in a 416 page book

http://www.amazon.com/United-States-Federations-Official-Edition/dp/0812935594/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1332444120&sr=8-3

cvtuttle wrote:
However, Chess, a game of the ages, with infinitely less flexibility of play comes in a 416 page book

How misleading. You could write the basic rules of chess on one sheet of A4 with all of the information needed for people to play it.

You should take up politics with that fact twisting ability.

Skippy wrote:

cvtuttle wrote:
However, Chess, a game of the ages, with infinitely less flexibility of play comes in a 416 page book

How misleading. You could write the basic rules of chess on one sheet of A4 with all of the information needed for people to play it.

You should take up politics with that fact twisting ability.

Indeed. The rules of chess haven't changed for a very long time so why did that book need to be updated 5 times?

It's obviously got more than the rules in there as even the "advanced" manoeuvres such as Castling are very simple to explain. A quick glance at the synopsis goes to show this. It's talking about things which are not necessary to play, such sponsoring tournaments, calculating rankings and reading/writing chess notation.

The Chess book, from the Amazon description, also has a lot of information that would be the equivalent to a wargame rulebook including tactics discussions, campaign/league information, multiple variants, etc.

Shadelkan wrote:- a big long post that doesn't need to be quoted in its entirety-

I would have told him to shut his mouth and mind his own business. I don't put up with that kind of gak.

Some people just don't have any manners and are rude in general. You need to stick up for yourself, and not tolerate that type of dissrespect.

And that is exactly what it was, at least the way you have described it above. I would no more tolerate that type of behavior in gaming, than I would in any
other aspect of life. Besides, WM\H & Malifaux aren't even in the same league as 40K, despite what their fans would tell you. It is like comparing an Atari 2600
game to a PS3 game. But that is a discussion for another thread.


- Edited by insaniak. The language filter is there for a reason -

Skippy wrote:

cvtuttle wrote:
However, Chess, a game of the ages, with infinitely less flexibility of play comes in a 416 page book

How misleading. You could write the basic rules of chess on one sheet of A4 with all of the information needed for people to play it.

You should take up politics with that fact twisting ability.

Ooo you got me!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Balance wrote:The Chess book, from the Amazon description, also has a lot of information that would be the equivalent to a wargame rulebook including tactics discussions, campaign/league information, multiple variants, etc.

This was my point - better put than I did.

Kairos wrote:
Besides, WM\H & Malifaux aren't even in the same league as 40K, despite what their fans would tell you. It is like comparing an Atari 2600
game to a PS3 game. But that is a discussion for another thread.

Out of curiosity, plain and simple - what 'league' do you speak of?

Hi all.
Can I just take a moment to clarify.
Gamers have a preference for different types of game play , from size of game , scale of game,complexity and detail in the game play and complication of the rule set.

This is why such a wide variety of game exist !

The asthetic and play style of a game can ONLY be discussed subjectively.
You either like it or you dont.

I did NOT critique 40ks asthetic or game play.

Only the instructions to play are not as well defined or as consice and intuitive as other rule sets.This can be proved by objective comparisons.(As Infinate Arrays comparison to EA.)

The cost to field a full army in a full game can also be compared objectivley to other systems.And the level and frequency of updates and amendments to improve game play can also be compared objectivley.

In all these areas 40k is not as good as other games.(Compared to other TTMG sold by other companies, with similar levels of game play complexity and rule complication.)
And I belive its important to point this out to potential new players.

I am assuming Kairos was comparing asthetic and game play subjectivley, as the only real diffeence between an Atari 2600 and a PS3 is much better graphics...

Am I wrong in thinking 40k would be better off with a rule set written specificaly for the game paly of 40k, rather than the game being stuck with a mutilated version of WHFB?

Anyhow , I am NOT slagging off 40k the game , or the people that play it.

Just wanting to attract attension to the negativce influence GW plc corperate interferance has had on 40k game development and support.

TTFN

The situation in the OP poses some similar problem to the one currently plaguing my LGS.

When I found the place I was directed there, ironically, by another store who didnt have the space to host 40k. When I found the place (DEC of 2010) I was super-noobish and was just looking for some people to play. I was on my first army and just needed some experience. I met some cool people right off the bat and made some new friends while learning. The owners told me at the time that 40k was dead there and no one really played. She said they were looking for more people to play and hopefully get the community (and no doubt GW sales) rolling again.

Alot after a couple other locals showed up (I'm a recent transplant to Texas and didnt know the area or anyone in particular) we developed a healthy group of about 6-10 players who showed every saturday. We also met local Vets who had moved back to WHFB or Warmahordes. These vets, being long time customers of the stores, are the only people who ownership trusted to run tournaments since they dont run tourneys themselves. Since many of these vets have a bad taste in their mouth (much like the OPs encounter) about 40k, they run their tournaments and judge rule disputes based on their preference for previous 40k editions, it has caused a rift.

Personally, I am not playing in the next tourney in 31 MAR, nor have I played there in weeks. I used to play there religiously every saturday, now I cant remember the last time I made it two weekends in a row.

They claim their bias is intended to keep "new" players and "new" customers from getting steam rolled in tourneys and scared off. They claim they only want to bring in new people and grow the community. Yet, the drama and the rules interpretations, heavily comp tourneys and targeted comp nerfs have done just the opposite. I now travel three times as far to play in Houston, just because of what has changed. I dont buy my white dwarfs there any more, nor do I buy my models or comics there anymore. I'm not mad about it, I just have no desire to play there anymore.

Lanrak wrote:40k has 100s of pages of rules to cover its straight forward game play.(40k inspiring asthetic and straight forward game play are its stong points IMO.)
The same level of game play could be achived with less than 40 pages of rules.(If we used more apropriate game mechanics and resolution methods.)

Therfore 40k rules are unecissarily over complicated.(2 to 4 times more pages of rules than actualy necissary.)

Before you make these kinds of statements, you might want to do the relatively simple action of opening the rulebook to the contents page.

5th editions rules start on page 2, and continue to 95. So 93 pages. This covers every single rule for playing a game. Including the scenaries.

I'd like to know how you got 'hundreds' from under one hundred pages.

At the end of the day the best thing is avoid the haters.

At my local club there are a few people who sound very much like the guy described in OP. They are mainly active on the forum because they killed off people wanting to actually play their prefered system months ago.

The best thing is not to confront them, or to have any dealings with them, build up a group of people you want to play with and go from there.

Lanrak wrote:HI folks.
My comments about 40k/WHFB earlier , may have been seen as biased.

They were, and are. And obviously so.

Lanrak,

Your issue is that you just keep poping in and throwing gak around. Then you act like your suprised when people call you on it.

40K is an impersonal game system, it has been for some time, but people WANT it. That is the deal.

Just because you have your issues, I have mine, or the OP's 40K fan club have thiers, it really at the end of the day doesn't matter.

The OP is trying to scare up some interest, then has a couple of nubs giving him gak, as do alot of people.

I used the template card to play 40K with, didn't have an issue. ONE cardstock, two sides. Didn't need "100's of pages".

Thats not even a here or there.


Just because you don't prefer a system, doesn't need people who do not even have a stake in you and an opponents game to slag it. ( and yes, the "you" is in general. not Lanrak.)

Back in the RT days, they had material that was prepped to slip into a three ring binder. I am here again, saying that 40K could really stand to go back to this system. The "100's of pages" was justified, they actually had content- and continued to add it through the White Dwarf.


Just saying, but with all of its negative issues, 40K/ Fantasy is available, people play it, and even if it is with its flaws, a comfortable game.

I hate the company, but the game has its moments.

Hi guys..
Loki.
if you include the EXTRA SPECIAL RULES found in all the codexes,how many pages does that include?If there were no additional rules in the codexes/army books
40k would still have more pages of rules than necissary, compared to its straight forward game play.

Have you actualy compared the 40k rule set objectivly to any other rule sets?

Kaldor,
I have made objective assesments of rule set for years.
Please feel free to quote ANY current game mechanic method from the current 40k rule set that could not be replaced with a better alternative.*
Better defined as , more complex game play with similar complication, or same game complexity with far less complication in the rules .

Grot 6.
I simply pointed out the weaknesses of 40k.These should be made evdent to new players as well as the stong points , the asthetic and striaghtforward game play.

I understand people make a massive investment in thier preferred game system.And this means they get a strong emotional attachment to that particualr system.

BUT , most of the bad feeling happens when the game doesnt live up to expectations of the new player.

I have used refernce sheets with just 2 sides of A4 for games with far more complex game play than 40k has.Quick reference sheets are just that!(They tend to be 1 or 2 sides of A4)And have very little bearing on how complicated the rules are.

I LIKE 40KS GAMEPLAY, I LIKE 40k ASHTETIC,(i like the essense of the game.)
But comparitivley the rules are over complicated with patchy game support.(I dislike the inane decisions of the company that makes it,)

Unfortunaly to play the game, (good bits.) you have to put up the the company that controls its development and sells it.(Bad bits.)

ALL gamers play thier favorite games despite the flaws.But it is nice to know what the flaws are before you buy stuff , isnt it?

Name anything in life ever that can't be replaced with a better version.

A porcelain toilet could be a golden throne with a jet booster on the back that could fly me to Campus, yet also take care to steer me over a rival's house so that it might release my gak on it.

I want one :(

siging that

Henners91 wrote:
A porcelain toilet could be a golden throne with a jet booster on the back that could fly me to Campus, yet also take care to steer me over a rival's house so that it might release my gak on it.

I want one :(

It doesn't sound like a better version of the porcelain toilet...it sounds like a dangerous and difficult to operate short-range transportation device with a weird scatological fetish revenge mechanism built into it.

Not demanding improvement to a rules system that is constantly evolving sounds like a recipe for a downward spiral.

I lol'd.

Perhaps my logic isn't infallible, but I merely intended to stake a point against an individual who I believe is popping up all over Dakka to toss flak at a game system quite unreservedly. Maybe some points are valid - but it seems like it's Lanrak's entire agenda for being here.

That was the idea

I have no idea about Lanraks' motives. I do know, however, that while I have a certain fondness for the IP, I have very little incentive to get back into 40k due to a feeling that the rule set has been "evolving" in circles for a long time. It is pretty sad, actually :(

Just bringing my opinion in here,

People who hate mostly all had a bad experience or are just annoying pessimistic people to the bone (sorry haters, got an optimist here!) I've come accros some haters here and there, and even an all live hater who just, Idk he just had a bad youth or something I geuss. Some people just have their reasons but all should realize, there are just people who LIKE 40k and who LOVE the game, give those few unspoiled people a break. There are many 12 - 14 year olds at my Local GW store, love how excited they are about the cool miniatures and that is what it is all about. Some people ask me, 'why did you buy that, it is so damn expensive (this is about 10 pariahs I once bought)' I just tell them : Because, no matter the price, I love these models and everyday I look at them they make me feel good inside, this little tiny metall guys are little pieces of happiness I was able to buy!

Also I accept and find all other games intresting yet if one tells me about a game which Isn't 40k I just tell them, 'dude I don't play that, so I don't know anything about it, Its not that I don't like it, 40k is just my game

I am a little bit of a hater to this though, I don't like armies which aren't even painted up to like 20% if you just had a new squad or extra vehicles no point, as long as it's mostly painted, Also mixed painted armies make me feel uneasy. I have (being in college) very little time and my armies are way more painted up than people who, on the other hand, work and have much spare time. Something I am an hater too are proxies which are way out of hand! (this is because some guy fielded a mummy-like doll on a termie base telling me it was a Crisis suit O_o, since then I avoided using proxies, if you would see it, you would understand...)

Lanrak wrote:ALL gamers play thier favorite games despite the flaws.But it is nice to know what the flaws are before you buy stuff , isnt it?

And thats where you cross the line from being helpful, to being full of bullsquirt.

You are not some moral crusader helping to inform potential GW customers about their prices or rules systems, and even if you were you are GROSSLY MISINFORMED.

Just leave it alone, and stop being TFG.

When someone displays behavior like that, stay unemotional and give them a bit more rope so they can continue to hang themselves;

"Do you feel that I'm a poor member of the community? I have done something to give you that impression?"

Then when then invariably mutter "Oh..wasn't really meaning you, I'm talking in general"---continue to gently press "Well, I certainly don't want anyone to feel estranged from a game due to poor behavior by another gamer--so if you could nail down how the community is bad, I'd love to address it"


When you hold up a mirror and show people how rude they are being--they will either back down (In which case you look good, as you didn't get confrontational) or double down (In which case you look good, as he will continue to put on a poor display for himself). Either way, great job on doing demo games--sound like an asset for your store.

Well, OP, I understand where you're coming from. I must say I myself am a bit guilty for ragging on a bit on other game systems, but thankfully not to any players of those systems. If I do spot someone playing Warmachines/Hordes/whatever else, I will casually stop by and see what's going on for a few minutes, then keep on going my merry way.
And as for people quitting 40k due to high prices or bad marketing or whatever, it's quite weird what some people do. I for example absolutely love 40K and the setting and all the models and the background, even though I despise the actual company for some of their moves. Their selling point is they make wonderful models and provide for a great game system, but they could be doing so much more, and yet it's not something I will just drop because of said reasons. I play because I like the models, I like painting them, and I like playing with like-minded people who are fun to hang out and be silly with.
Okay, I think I'm done here. /

Guilty of hating corporate GW decisions. Still like the game, the fluff, and have collected Tau/Necrons?IG/SM/Orks despite the GW rage. I just will not buy their glue/brushes/tools.

I like other games, and will occasionally do crossing over of the models for use as in 40k.

Hi Kaldor.
You comments confuse me.
Could you explain how being honest about a games strenghts and weakness with new players is 'bullsquirt'.
And that making potential gamers aware of the game systems flaws is a bad idea?

Could you expand your argument , and let me understand your motives.And can you explain why you feel I am grossly mis informed?

So I have a chance of defending myself from the acusation of being 'TFG'.

The problem is that you're being an evangelical 'informer' rather than someone who gives his opinion when it's due, methinks... probably evidenced by your repetition of the same opinion in various threads.