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If we give fire warriors BS4, dosen't that mean everything else has to be bumped up?

nomotog wrote:If we give fire warriors BS4, dosen't that mean everything else has to be bumped up?

The XV8s, other codexes or both?

As for other codexes, there is allegedly "Codex creep" where they are becoming stronger anyway.

SDFarsight wrote:

nomotog wrote:If we give fire warriors BS4, dosen't that mean everything else has to be bumped up?

The XV8s, other codexes or both?

As for other codexes, there is allegedly "Codex creep" where they are becoming stronger anyway.

I was thinking the XV8's, stealthsuits, even the devilish. Things brake down quickly if you do that too. Tau have a lot of abilities that cap at 5BS.

You wouldn't have to boost the BS of other codexes. Not unless you wanted to.

One of the biggest complaints is that the tau as they are now do not kill enough. We can't table the other guy, we can't cause enough wounds fast enough to force LD checks, etc.

From a game mechanic there are only 4 ways to increase you kill count.

1 - Shoot more shots
2 - hit more often
3 - wound more often
4 - denigh enemy armor saves.

#4 is right out as far as game design goes because you have things like cover saves but more importantly part of the fun of the game is for the defender to try and save the life of his little men by rolling armor saves. If you never get to roll your saves (because your not getting any) the game becomes less fun from an over all stand point.

#3 can be done, but do you really want to give Tau base S6 guns? Would that seem too OTT. As it is there is only 1 S4 gun in our entire codex (kroot rifle). I just don't see much room to increase here.

That leaves #s 1 and 2. One of these has to go up. Its the only way the make the Tau more killy that still gives a chance of being balanced and fun. Game designers are just going to have to pick one and I feel that either one can be jusitifed in a fluffy mannor.

Also nothing that changes in the Tau codex should have any impact on what should and should not happen to other codexs outside of the standard form of Codex Creep. If all Tau become BS5 there is no reason at all for Orks or anyother race to suddenly get a raise in BS. Because if that happened all of a sudden the Tau are back in the bottom of the pile and everyone else who is already strong just make the playing field even that more unbalanced.

Well, there's different things you can have in your troop selection.

1) You can have things that are simply cheap. Their main advantage is that you'll have lots of them (Gaunts? Boyz? Etc.). They are not great at anything, but cheap.

2) You can have things that are good all-round, shooting, assault, good LD, special weapons for different purposes, good armour save, etc.. (Marines iconically? Others like Necron Immortals or DE with notably exceptions in one or two areas where they are notably weaker (e.g. Armour for DE for example). They are more expensive, but you get alot of versatility.

3) Finally, you can have things that are all-round weak, but excel in one particular area (Genestealers, Eldar Wraithguard). They are more expensive, but you get virtually "elite-"abilities in one highly circumscribed field.


So where will Firewarriors go? Cheap, horde-guys? Not likely. Even in their own Codex, this would be more a Kroot role. Versatility? Probably not. Noone wants to turn FWs into Xeno-Marines. Which leaves "highly specialized" in one area. Ergo, FWs should roughly be to "anti-infantry shooting" what Genestealers are to CC or Wraithlords to Troop-resilience. Stats and rules (and fluff) would need to be adapted to make that happen.

One of my problems with a lot of the proposals I've seen to 'fix' Tau is that they take the wrong angle. The Tau are a race that overall is at best equal to humans in their basic qualities and due to social or physical constraints sometimes inferior. Their advanced technology isn't an attempt to change the inherent lack of capability in their base physiology, it's an attempt to circumvent it entirely.

So I don't think that the average Tau should get a lot of attribute amp or special abilities, that's not really the Tau way. So instead of trying to improve the Tau, we should improve the Tau gear.


So let's take the Tau Fire Warrior Team. I'm fine with the basic stats of the Tau in said team being worse off than a Guardsman (though I'd probably bring the Shas'ui up to on par with a Guardsman rather than just make him a LD buff for the squad, his reward for being a veteran). But the stuff he's going to carry will make him more than a match for a Guardsman and make him excell int he primary anti-infantry role in which the Firewarriors find themselves in.

First off, the helmet. Given the Tau's enhanced visual spectrum and the other goodies that Tau technology brings to it, I'd say the Helmet should do 2 things other than keep his head dry. 1) It has the receptors that allow the Fire Warrior to benefit from things like Markerlights, Command Nodes and the like and 2) It gives him the Night Vision USR.

Second, the battle armour. Here I think the Tau are doing pretty good. Why? Well 4+ is a better basic troop choice armour than pretty much any non-marine army gets. He still gets his save against most anti-infantry weapons (ie AP 5) and he can be surprisingly resilient in close combat at times. Yeah he's fragile compared to the Marines and their ilk, but still, the Tau are little blue men, not marines. Save the Power Armour for the Elite slots.

Third, the weapon. Alright, if you really want to rock the Tau Fire Warrior Team as a scary shooting opponent who jsut mows down hordes and even makes marines sweat it out, I have the change for you right here. Small change, but a massive difference into the way the Tau would preform. Make the Pulse Rifle Heavy 2 and the Pulse Carbine Assault 2. That's it, that's all. It's a small change but it will make a world of difference for the effectiveness of the Fire Warrior on the battlefield. If you're the type who likes to have their Tau sit and shoot, go nuts with those pulse rifles and watch all but the toughest opponents melt away under your withering fire. If you're the type that wants to jump out of a transport and shoot the heck out of a unit, grab those carbines and have some fun. Best part there, with the 18 inch range, you don't have to get into assault range on an infantry unit to light them up.

Fourth, the leader. I mentioned the SHas'ui should get a boost compared to the Shas'la. I'm happy with the Shas'ui having what are guardsman stats, maybe with BS 4, maybe not (BS 4 Shasui's would make all the battle suits pretty freaking scary though). The most important things are what the Shas'ui brings to the table, first off being the Bonding Knives. I don't know how many times a unit of my Fire Warriors has been saved by breaking under assault or under fire running away, then rallying and shooting the heck out of the foe. This is actually one of the reasons I don't mind the low Ld scores on Tau, they are supposed to retreat and regroup anyway, so let them retreat and regroup. The other thing I want to bring in with the Shas'ui is a Markerlight that isn't subject to the silly doesn't work for the shootign unit restriction. I find that one hogwash, instead let the Shas'ui designate for his own squad. Suddenly, the Fire Warrior team is Ballistic Skill 4 half to 2/3rds the time (depending on the Shas'ui's BS of course). Incidentally, as fun as Assault Markerlights would be, I find that doens't match the performance of the real tech the Markerlight is trying to emulate, so keep them Heavy 1, still makes those gunlines extra scary.

Fifth, the transport. I love everything about the Devilfish but it's price. I know others want open topped, but the closed system makes sense to me. It fits in the way the Tau do things. The only changes I would make to the Devilfish are in the weapon systems. First, the Drones, I mentioned making the Carbine Assault 2 above, that would apply here. Second, the Burst Cannon, I feel this weapon horribly under performs for what it's supposed to be. Make Burst Cannons 24 inches in range and 4 shots per turn, make them Heavy if to compensate if you feel the need, it's not like they are mounted on anything that isn't a vehicle or has relentless. Finally the Smart Missile System. I think it's rather odd for the Tau to use two very distinct types of missiles that are the same size and fired from the same launchers but have such great differences in performance. So I say combine the Smart Missile System and the Missile Pod. Make both 36 inches, ST 7 AP 4 liek the missile pod missiles. Give both the drone guidance from the Smart Missile System. Missile Pod version has 2 shots per turn (again, suitable for making it heavy, like the Burst Cannon for the same reason) while the new version of the SMS retains it's 4 shots per turn. Suddenly the Warfish becomes a really scary customer, capable of taking on enemy transports far enough away to protect it's dismounts. Also, while we are at it, give the Seeker Missile a bit more bite, no longer make it need a second roll to hit but instead an automatic score on a target light by a Markerlight if the controller wants to fire a missile.

I would also set up a Veteran Fire Warriors Team that doesn't require picking an Ethereal to bring into play. I'd make the basic member a Shas'ui (and thus eligible to take a bunch of wargear possibilities and can be used as another justification for BS 4 Shas'ui) and the sqaud Leader a Shas' vre. Stick them in the Elite slot, but if you take the appropriate HQ option, they come in as Troops. Given they are supposed to be veerans who have survived the attrition necessary to make it to Shas'ui maybe knock down the maximum unit size to 8 (but that gives more room for drones in the Devilfish).

So there, that's my vision for effective Fire Warriors not really any tougher or any skilled than our current versions, but packing a lot more firepower and with more effective command and control options. While they won't be considerably more expensive than they are now (I'd rather a 10 to 12 point Fire Warrior that was worth the cost than dropping the cost of the existing Fire Warrior 1 - 2 points to reflect his ability) they are a unit that is going to be a threat to any infantry unit in the game and even some light vehicles and monstrous transports.

Now if you want to see me produce some radical changes, ask me my opinion on Pathfinders

nomotog wrote:

SDFarsight wrote:

nomotog wrote:If we give fire warriors BS4, dosen't that mean everything else has to be bumped up?

The XV8s, other codexes or both?

As for other codexes, there is allegedly "Codex creep" where they are becoming stronger anyway.

I was thinking the XV8's, stealthsuits, even the devilish. Things brake down quickly if you do that too. Tau have a lot of abilities that cap at 5BS.

Aye, though if I'm not mistaken that 'up to BS 5' rule was designed at a time when BS 6 didn't exist- now it does.

1. ALL XV8 and XV88 are BS 4. All Team Leads come with BK and BSF for FREE.

2. Devilfish drops tp 50 pts.

3. Kroot choose what side of the table to come on from. ALL 4 sides....

4. FW stay at BS 3. Although they get a 'ui for free and everyone get all the grenades for free too.

4. Pulse rifle = Rapid Assault Fire. 30 inch 1 shot, 20 inches 2 shots. 10 inches 3 shots. Same state line for STR and AP though but Assault not Rapid...

5 Tetra = legit model.

6. New Drones:
- Medical Drone = FNP,
- Stealth Gen drone... Roll Nightvision rules to hit and if assaulted enemy is I 1.
- Long Barrel Burstcannon. As Forgeworld.
- Missle Pod Drone. TL MP as normal stat line for MP
- Fusion drone. TL FB as normal sta line for FB.

7. Piranha comes standard with TL weapons and DP and flechettes for current points value. Upgrading to FB is same cost but is now TL.


Those would be my initial changes to the Dex....

SDFarsight wrote:

nomotog wrote:

SDFarsight wrote:

nomotog wrote:If we give fire warriors BS4, dosen't that mean everything else has to be bumped up?

The XV8s, other codexes or both?

As for other codexes, there is allegedly "Codex creep" where they are becoming stronger anyway.

I was thinking the XV8's, stealthsuits, even the devilish. Things brake down quickly if you do that too. Tau have a lot of abilities that cap at 5BS.

Aye, though if I'm not mistaken that 'up to BS 5' rule was designed at a time when BS 6 didn't exist- now it does.

So we could just raise the cap. Though it would still give us BS 5 hammer heads. I'm grinning evilly as I type that.

nomotog wrote:

SDFarsight wrote:

nomotog wrote:

SDFarsight wrote:

nomotog wrote:If we give fire warriors BS4, dosen't that mean everything else has to be bumped up?

The XV8s, other codexes or both?

As for other codexes, there is allegedly "Codex creep" where they are becoming stronger anyway.

I was thinking the XV8's, stealthsuits, even the devilish. Things brake down quickly if you do that too. Tau have a lot of abilities that cap at 5BS.

Aye, though if I'm not mistaken that 'up to BS 5' rule was designed at a time when BS 6 didn't exist- now it does.

So we could just raise the cap. Though it would still give us BS 5 hammer heads. I'm grinning evilly as I type that.

I don't think the time has come for BS5 Hammerheads but maybe a BS5 legendary pilot.

Deadnight wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:
So that's a no then?

Pity, I imagined it might've been a decent read. Ah well.

or you could maybe read it?

I tried. It hurt my eyes, thus prompting me to make the post asking for formatting.

I wouldn't have needed to ask if I could read it.

broodstar wrote:

nomotog wrote:

SDFarsight wrote:

nomotog wrote:

SDFarsight wrote:

nomotog wrote:If we give fire warriors BS4, dosen't that mean everything else has to be bumped up?

The XV8s, other codexes or both?

As for other codexes, there is allegedly "Codex creep" where they are becoming stronger anyway.

I was thinking the XV8's, stealthsuits, even the devilish. Things brake down quickly if you do that too. Tau have a lot of abilities that cap at 5BS.

Aye, though if I'm not mistaken that 'up to BS 5' rule was designed at a time when BS 6 didn't exist- now it does.

So we could just raise the cap. Though it would still give us BS 5 hammer heads. I'm grinning evilly as I type that.

I don't think the time has come for BS5 Hammerheads but maybe a BS5 legendary pilot.

Well that's also what I was kind of getting at in my first post. A hammer head is piloted by a fire warrior bump one you bump the other. You don't have to raise everyone's BS, but it would feel awkward not to.

Are their any legendary pilots in 40k? I think almost all SC are commanders.

PS I think we should stop nesting quotes now.

Heavies:
Make Multitrackers standard on all Tau equipment. Paying for that is dumb.
Don't limit the Skyray missile count.
For Hammer heads: Ion Cannon: 5 pts. Railgun: 25 points
Sniper Drones should be relentless.

Troops:
Create a character that makes Pathfinders into troop choices.
Give Kroot Riders Infiltrate. Make Kroot guns (str 7 ones) assault 2
Shas'ui: make them standard with the Bonding Knife.

Elites:
Marker drones in general need to be relentless and 20 points instead of 30.
Multitrackers standard on Suits/vehicles
Allow Stealthunits to choose different gear options for maximum wound allocation shinanigans. hey, it's an elite right?

HQ:
Make experimental gear freely available to all team leaders and above.
Give command suits access to take on Broadside armor and armaments. Why wouldn't they have that? Kinda like taking Terminator armor for other codex's

Create unlockl character to make Pathfinders into troop choices.

Fast Attack:
Team leaders always have bonding knives.
Stingwings: give the leader an extra wound to help keep the unit upright longer.

Allow Tetra bikes. Great, cheap objective stealing unit, that has markerlights to help zing the enemy with missiles.

Piranhas: Change the way Decoy launchers work. they would be worth taking on this unit if they affected all hits instead of just glancing.

Transports: Devilfish is 10 points too much. Shimeras have similar armaments and lesser armor for 55. I'd say 70 points is fair, given the better armor and slightly better movement. Multitracker standard.

@nomotog IG have a Leman Russ Commander and then there is the Master of the Ravenwing.

Chronus in the C:SM book too.

id like to see a veteran suit pilot. as in a SC that costs Xpoints that is an upgrade to *any* shas'vre suit (stealth, broadside, crisis, *newsuit*) etc. make it a bit diferent to the imperial *upgrade a tank* SC

Cerebrium wrote:Chronus in the C:SM book too.

But it doesn't fit the Tau theme. Imperials and Marines get "better" through experience and battle-field-achievments. "Legendary" veterans with fabled skills are a representation of that.

Tau work to a different logic. They get "better" through technology, not "battle-field" experience. The thematic equivalent would not be "Tank-commander-veteran", but "experiemental-tank-weapon-targeting-system" which might be once-per-army.

Zweischneid wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:Chronus in the C:SM book too.

But it doesn't fit the Tau theme. Imperials and Marines get "better" through experience and battle-field-achievments. "Legendary" veterans with fabled skills are a representation of that.

Tau work to a different logic. They get "better" through technology, not "battle-field" experience. The thematic equivalent would not be "Tank-commander-veteran", but "experiemental-tank-weapon-targeting-system" which might be once-per-army.

Its no more a technocracy than the imperials. i think its a mix.

Lookie, a space marine kill an Ork nob, or does something heroic - he's rewarding with a new!shiny! power sword. If he's really uber, he gets elevated to the first company, and gets his new!shiny! suit of terminator armour. but he gets it because he's earned it.

tau move through the ranks through attrition. the best survive/are promoted. thats why shas'la can become veterans, through proving themselves in combat. the best of those are trained up in the new!shiny! crisis suits (not all tau veterans get suits - epic has a slot for veteran FW teams), which hold a presense to the tau that is akin to terminator armour for marines. they best warriors, having proven themselves, get the best toys.

the argumenr regarding commanders getting the "experimental gear" makes sense. its mentioned in empire - that proven commanders get experimental weapons. personally, i dont like it, but thats just because with the exception of the forgeworld guy with his omnigun, all our experimental weapons and wargear have been terrible. I prefer to think the experimental gear is the pre-production model. Also, rather than experimental gear, i think its better if proven tau commanders get *unique* gear. shadowsuns XV22 is an example - a once-off suit just for her. I think proven heros should have their own unique signature gear that is awesome, not experimental.

But the logic is inversed for Marines. They have a more "fantasy/knight"-logic in that their "best" stuff is the "old" stuff. E.g. relics of the past, artifacts passed down from the Primarchs, etc.. Look at all the special items in particular. Calgar's Gauntlets, Kantor's Bolter, Lysander's Hammer, etc.. . It's not so much "better technology" but "ancient knightly relics" that have been given a half-assed faux-techno-babble fig-leave of explanation to work them into a sci-fantasy setting.

For Tau, the theme runs the other way. It has Alien allies with "primitive" weapons, troopers with better weapons and Elites with fancy technology. Sure, experimental tech in the current dex is overpriced by 5th edition standards, but that is because it's an old Dex. The "theme" and emphasis has been different. Hell, alot of the "experimental" Tau tech gives the very same rules as some Space Marine Gear. Irridium Armour vs. Artificer Armour. Shield Generator vs. Iron Halo, etc.. ,etc.. . But the thematics they put on it are "new tech fresh from the laboratory" while the "thematics" they put on the Marine stuff is "treasured relics passed on from hero-to-hero".

I played 1000 points today against tau with my deathguard and flooored them !!

It was spearhead, with 3 objective markers. I took 3 squads of 7 PM, Lord with MoN, terminator armor + plaguebringer, 4 obliterators and 4 terminators. He had commander with bodyguard + drone, 4 stealth suites, 3 firewarrior teams with drones and 2 hammer heads.

His weapons outranged me for sure and had amazing strenth and ap and all that - but it means nothing if you cannot hit your opponent to start off with !

Tau should not have BS of 3, it should be 4 or each unit should be allowed the option of a marker drone to take it up to BS 4. Once I deep striked my terminators and lord into CC it was all over for him....

I mean fair enough making an army that is all shooting and no CC apart from one unit (kroot) in 40k. But if that is the case at least give them decent BS. I know guard have terrible BS but they at least got template weapons and ordinence weapons that make it less of an issue... Besides a more advanced race like Tau should have better aim than lowly úmies !

sumi808 wrote:I played 1000 points today against tau with my deathguard and flooored them !!

It was spearhead, with 3 objective markers. I took 3 squads of 7 PM, Lord with MoN, terminator armor + plaguebringer, 4 obliterators and 4 terminators. He had commander with bodyguard + drone, 4 stealth suites, 3 firewarrior teams with drones and 2 hammer heads.

His weapons outranged me for sure and had amazing strenth and ap and all that - but it means nothing if you cannot hit your opponent to start off with !

Tau should not have BS of 3, it should be 4 or each unit should be allowed the option of a marker drone to take it up to BS 4. Once I deep striked my terminators and lord into CC it was all over for him....

I mean fair enough making an army that is all shooting and no CC apart from one unit (kroot) in 40k. But if that is the case at least give them decent BS. I know guard have terrible BS but they at least got template weapons and ordinence weapons that make it less of an issue... Besides a more advanced race like Tau should have better aim than lowly úmies !

Your opponent's army was bad. Seriously, Firewarrior heavy Foottau suck so bad, chaosspawn are already getting worried that they appear viable next to them.
Still, outside of perhaps a single semi viable build ( that is, you don't shoot yourself in the foot by fielding it ) Tau are bad and deserve an upgrade.

Yeah, dude had no Markerlights and lack of a lot of twin linked weapons available to him, no wonder he had problems hitting.

Stealth Suits have interesting abilities, but they lack the ability to take a twin linked weapon like a Crisis Suit. While they can take the 10 point upgrade to BS, this block a lot of other useful upgrades from being taken by the squad.

Those Hammerheads are one of the only Tau units outside of the HQ to start with BS: 4, however their primary weapon, unlike those on the Broadsides, isn't twin linked so it is actually less accurate than the Broadsides with their BS 3.

Marker Drones are available to all Tau units by the way, but they are a 30 point upgrade that only works half the time (they have BS 3 themselves).

I agree that non-augmented Tau have accuracy problems compared to Space Marines, but again, non-augmented Tau are supposed to be the equivalent to Guardsmen, not Space Marines.

Tau units have the capability to become incredibly accurate even without markerlights. I knoww the most popular configuration for a Crisis suit these days is a Plasma Rifle, a Missile Pod and a Multi-Tracker on a BS 3 Crisis Suit.

However, for LESS points it's possible to mount a set of Twin Linked Missile Pods or a set of twin linked Plasma Rifles on as suit that has a Targeting Array to become BS 4. Suddenly you have a unit that hits on a 3+ and rerolls misses without using markerlights and is actually cheaper than the most common configuration.

Likewise, the same Targeting Array can be applied to the Stealth Suits so they can also become BS 4. I tend not to do this on the Burst Cannons, but its a must on those Fusion Blasters. You only get 1 shot to make those count, so best make it count.

The same upgrade also fits ont he Broadsides - nothing says Tank Killer like a St 10 AP 1 weapon that hits ona a 3+ and re-rolls misses.

Oh wait, you can also put that same wargear on any of the vehicles except the Hammerhead (which has it already), again giving that BS 4 touch. For real fun combine this with Forge World Tetras and their new High Intensity Markerlights and suddenly you have 4 BS 4 Markerlight shots a turn, the rest of your army will thank you.

So Markerlights aside, all of the Tau Battlesuits and Vehicles can come in at Ballistic Skill 4, often with Twin Linked to boot.



Now I agree, it would be nice if the Shas'la had BS 4 organic to them. Personally I think that it would make the Tau a wickedly potent shooting force just by tossing a BS 4 Shas'la with a Networked Markerlight in each Firewarrior Team, though to be honest, it wouldn't be much greater than a BS 3 Shas'la with the same Networked Markerlight.

To me, that whole Networked/non-Networked Markerlight is one of the bigger problems the Tau face. Markerlights that actually work for the unit firing them are rare (Skyray, Sniper Drone Team) or expensive (Marker Drone) resulting in the need for pricey dedicated marker units (Pathfinders, Stealth Marker Teams). The result is that the Markerlights frequently just don't get used and the Tau remain a shooting army that only hits half the time.

So let's make standard Markerlights work for the team that's carrying them. Suddenly instead of a 10 point upgrade for the squad leader (who is usually a 10 point upgrade himself) that does nothing, you elevate the unit's Ballistic Skill to what is effectively 3.5 (or for the fancier units 4.67). It's cheap, easy and fits with the existing stuff the Tau have.

Next, make the dedicated Marking units more cost effective. The recent Tau update by Forgeworld made those lovable Tetras the default best marking Unit the Tau have available. For about the cost of a minimum squad of Pathfinders with no frills other than the mandatory Devilfish, you can get 2 fully loaded Tetras and here's the fun part, instead of firing only 4 BS 3 Markerlight shots per turn (average 2 Markerlight tokens) you pump out 8 shots at BS 4 per turn (average of 5+ Markerlight tokens) and these Markerlights can move instead of staying put all game and are protected by an AV instead of 4+ armour.

So the tools are there and can be made ready to go with only a few minor tweaks.

Stealth Suits have interesting abilities, but they lack the ability to take a twin linked weapon like a Crisis Suit. While they can take the 10 point upgrade to BS, this block a lot of other useful upgrades from being taken by the squad.


makes them cost 40pts. too much. especially if, for the most part, all they're putting out is ap5.

I agree that non-augmented Tau have accuracy problems compared to Space Marines, but again, non-augmented Tau are supposed to be the equivalent to Guardsmen, not Space Marines.
and yet, tau dont send in non-augmented troops. they are all extremely well equipped. besides, we're talking about a race of genetically pre-disposed, and genetically manipulated (zachary's theorem) soldiers.


Tau units have the capability to become incredibly accurate even without markerlights. I knoww the most popular configuration for a Crisis suit these days is a Plasma Rifle, a Missile Pod and a Multi-Tracker on a BS 3 Crisis Suit.

However, for LESS points it's possible to mount a set of Twin Linked Missile Pods or a set of twin linked Plasma Rifles on as suit that has a Targeting Array to become BS 4. Suddenly you have a unit that hits on a 3+ and rerolls misses without using markerlights and is actually cheaper than the most common configuration.


and costs 60pts for 1 ap2 shot at 24". which is lousy considering you're dealing with 2MEQ wounds. a single krak missile and its gone. just because its an option doesnt mean its worth taking. tl missile pods, on the other hand is the *other* viable build, and even then its too focused to be useful outside of specific light vehicle duties, as ap4 bounces off most hard infantry.

Likewise, the same Targeting Array can be applied to the Stealth Suits so they can also become BS 4. I tend not to do this on the Burst Cannons, but its a must on those Fusion Blasters. You only get 1 shot to make those count, so best make it count.
makes them cost 40pts though. which, frankly, is ridiculous.

The same upgrade also fits ont he Broadsides - nothing says Tank Killer like a St 10 AP 1 weapon that hits ona a 3+ and re-rolls misses.
losing out on the ablative shields, or the target lock abilities though.

Oh wait, you can also put that same wargear on any of the vehicles except the Hammerhead (which has it already), again giving that BS 4 touch. For real fun combine this with Forge World Tetras and their new High Intensity Markerlights and suddenly you have 4 BS 4 Markerlight shots a turn, the rest of your army will thank you.

are tetras in the codex? No, then dont count them. and what other vehicles do we have? devilfish and skyrays. the former will cost you 120pts if you're taking its "warfish" adaptation, and 120pts for 7bs4 is, frankly, ridiculous. as to the latter, well, the less said about the skyray, the better. its the most useless tank in the game.

So Markerlights aside, all of the Tau Battlesuits and Vehicles can come in at Ballistic Skill 4, often with Twin Linked to boot.
most of the time, its not worth it though.

the problem with all this again boils down to the +1-1 design of the third ed tau codex, which no one is addressing. you get more dakka, but less accuracy, or more accuracy, and less dakka.swings and roundabouts that leave you with a big, fat 0. bs4, or bs20 means nothing to me, unless i can put out enough firepower to kill whatever is coming at me in the 2 turns it will take for them to reach my lines and engage me. 1 shot from a bs4 suit wont do that.


To me, that whole Networked/non-Networked Markerlight is one of the bigger problems the Tau face. Markerlights that actually work for the unit firing them are rare (Skyray, Sniper Drone Team) or expensive (Marker Drone) resulting in the need for pricey dedicated marker units (Pathfinders, Stealth Marker Teams). The result is that the Markerlights frequently just don't get used and the Tau remain a shooting army that only hits half the time.

So let's make standard Markerlights work for the team that's carrying them. Suddenly instead of a 10 point upgrade for the squad leader (who is usually a 10 point upgrade himself) that does nothing, you elevate the unit's Ballistic Skill to what is effectively 3.5 (or for the fancier units 4.67). It's cheap, easy and fits with the existing stuff the Tau have.

Next, make the dedicated Marking units more cost effective. The recent Tau update by Forgeworld made those lovable Tetras the default best marking Unit the Tau have available. For about the cost of a minimum squad of Pathfinders with no frills other than the mandatory Devilfish, you can get 2 fully loaded Tetras and here's the fun part, instead of firing only 4 BS 3 Markerlight shots per turn (average 2 Markerlight tokens) you pump out 8 shots at BS 4 per turn (average of 5+ Markerlight tokens) and these Markerlights can move instead of staying put all game and are protected by an AV instead of 4+ armour.

So the tools are there and can be made ready to go with only a few minor tweaks.

and even with these tweaks, markerlights are pretty terrible. im sorry, but tau should not be the "markerlight spam" army. tau use markerlights, but tau are not defined by them. handing them out like candy, or building them up to be their equaliser isnt the solution. you dont make a build to make bad things average, which is what this is. markerlights, like the rest of the codex need a thourough overhaul. and rather than being handed out like candy, keep them limited, but make them awesome. make them make good things better. if im paying 200pts for a unit that will do this, they'd damn well kill whatever they light up.

What if we gave pulse rifles some kind of "Withering Fire" ability?
They are plasma guns after all, and if giving them AP3 is out of the question, then how about an ability which forces the enemy to add +1 to their armor saves if their target has been previously fired upon by pulse rifles. +2 if they've been fired upon twice before. This would represent the toll taken on armor of being shot with rapid fire, superheated plasma.

This modification would be permanent. Since in 2 turns Firewarriors are locked in melee. But they will have served a very important roll of making the enemy more vulnerable to all attacks.

Such a rule might encourage people to take a lot more Firewarrior squads.

With 3 FW squads firing at a terminator squad, for example, the 2rd FW squad would be forcing 3+ saves, and against the 3rd FW squad, the termies are getting a 4+ save.

I don't play Tau enough to picture how this effect might play out... Thoughts from Tau vets.?

Just a few things I think that could be an easy change that would help the Tau out.

1) Allow Fire warriors to upgrade there pulse rifle to a rail rifle. If you think this is to much maybe only allow 1 unit per army to do this. I have never understood why they cant use them from a fluff point of view as pathfinders use them and the are just highly trained fire warriors.

2) Make kroot hounds a better maybe T 4 or 2 wounds move them to fast attack and give them the beast USR.

3) Give all Crisis suits 4 attachment points. This would allow you to add targeting arrays to extinguish suit configurations and you could have you BS 4 if you want it. Also you could use that 4th spot to add flamers to all suit configurations which wont make them better in HTH which people dont want but would help them thin out a unit before they take a charge.

4) Take away the mandatory devilfish for pathfinders.

5) Give stealth suits something similar to a disruption pod but make it 5+ or 6+.

6) Make Stimulant injectors standard issue war gear instead of special issue as stealth crisis and broadside suits could greatly benefit from FNP.

7) Move Airbursting Fragmentation Projector from special issue to maybe 1 per team. This would help tau with crowd control.

8) Give a kroot shaper a power weapon or maybe allow 1 in ever 5 or 10 kroot to take a power weapon.

Give command suits access to take on Broadside armor

iridium?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the less said about the skyray, the better. its the most useless tank in the game.

Skyray are actually pretty good, they just don't have a place in a tau army because HS slots are at a premium. If we could somehow have infinite HS slots and infinite Elite slots, without needing anything else, we'd pack a hell of a punch, and lose every objective game ever.

Planetfall works out well

fire1122 wrote:

1) Allow Fire warriors to upgrade there pulse rifle to a rail rifle. If you think this is to much maybe only allow 1 unit per army to do this. I have never understood why they cant use them from a fluff point of view as pathfinders use them and the are just highly trained fire warriors.

this will be the case in warhammer 50k, but right now it wouldnt really fit. that said, if fire warrior squads got access to rail rifle drones via drone controllers, its a workable fix that fits the fluff, and doesnt over ride the "no special weappons for fire warriors" ethos. and pathfinders are not *highly trained* fire warriors. a fire warrior does not get promoted to being a pathfinder. they're all shas'la. they're all of the same rank. pathfinders have a different skill set. they're recon. they're eyes and ears. they pull a cadre forward. fire warriors, as good as they are, are gunslingers. they stand in the line and shoot.

fire1122 wrote:

2) Make kroot hounds a better maybe T 4 or 2 wounds move them to fast attack and give them the beast USR..

there is no precedent for this.

fire1122 wrote:
3) Give all Crisis suits 4 attachment points. This would allow you to add targeting arrays to extinguish suit configurations and you could have you BS 4 if you want it. Also you could use that 4th spot to add flamers to all suit configurations which wont make them better in HTH which people dont want but would help them thin out a unit before they take a charge.

so they cost more, and you havent solved any oftheir fundamental problems. please... stop thinking along the lines of a template that has proven to be a failure. hardpoints? please! it wouldnt matter if they had six! they cost too much, and they're too fragile. omniguns. if sternguard get various ammo types, and if obliterators get all the guns in one, the same should be the standard for our uber shooty unit. with bs4 and hit and run as a standard. in third ed, this would not have worked. fifth ed? with the power creep we've seen, this is the least that can be done.

fire1122 wrote:
4) Take away the mandatory devilfish for pathfinders.

agreed. rather than the fish though, i think they need vet packages (like IG vets) to represent their role on the battlefield more, as spotters, snipers, or artillery callers.

fire1122 wrote:
5) Give stealth suits something similar to a disruption pod but make it 5+ or 6+.

make then cheaper, faster and give them more dakka. D-pods wont work on them if they cant kill stuff.

fire1122 wrote:
6) Make Stimulant injectors standard issue war gear instead of special issue as stealth crisis and broadside suits could greatly benefit from FNP.

combat drugs are for dark eldar. stim packs are for terran marines... now, if you want FNP, please come up with a solution that fits the theme of the tau. selfrepairing molecular armour? sold. combat drugs? copypasted from DE. fail.

fire1122 wrote:
7) Move Airbursting Fragmentation Projector from special issue to maybe 1 per team. This would help tau with crowd control.

nope. its a terrible gun. omniguns for all suits, and the shas'vre in a max squad gets to upgrade to a bigger more dakka-yer gun.

fire1122 wrote:
8) Give a kroot shaper a power weapon or maybe allow 1 in ever 5 or 10 kroot to take a power weapon.

nope. power weapons doesnt fit. poisoned weapons? maybe. on shapers. "power weapons" isnt the answe. kroot arent assault troops. they're light infantry skirmishers who are chucked into the meatgrinder when necessary. shapers, rather than giving 6+ saves to people, or having "power weapons" which wont help, should give evolutionary adaptations (fleet, +1i, +1s, +1t, etc) to their kindred. kroot with kroot rifles, and possibly kroot hunting rifles (sniper rifles) is as far as id take it. power weapons do not fit.

kroot arent assault troops. they're light infantry skirmishers who are chucked into the meatgrinder when necessary. shapers, rather than giving 6+ saves to people, or having "power weapons" which wont help, should give evolutionary adaptations (fleet, +1i, +1s, +1t, etc) to their kindred. kroot with kroot rifles, and possibly kroot hunting rifles (sniper rifles) is as far as id take it. power weapons do not fit.

First off, kroot aren't meatgrinder fodder like IG, they are mercenaries and they will value their own lives should it seem that the odds truly are against them. They are not idiots, as has been proven through the fluff. They'll even do better morally if they get paid more, but being chucked into a situation where they will all die? Yeah no, their greater good is Cold Hard Cash, and the tau understand that, even if they try to educate them about the greater good overall.

On the games workshop site, kroot have three evolutionary patterns that can be given to them as a way of changing them up.

Headhunters: 4+ poisoned on each of them

Stalkers: Infiltrate, MTC, Night Vision, and stealth

Vulturekin: Jump Infantry with Hit & Run

I think these actually work pretty well for templates on an evolutionary pattern, I honestly dislike the stat upgrades as it doesn't make sense thematically unless they change overall (kroot hounds and krootox for example) You could make other types of kroot that have evolved, but the base kroot should not advance far enough to gain stat upgrades unless they change physically enough that they can't resemble themselves (Vulturekin get a pass since it's just kroot with wings)

Dreadnight, my post was to show that options were already in place. We don't need to create new things to make the Tau work, we need to tweak the stuff that is already there.

As for your comment on +1 -1, to be honest, that isn't the issue for me, if the -1 was thought out and appropriate.

The problem the Tau face is that many of their units are +1 -2 or -3 with a lot of those negatives not making a lot of sense or being legacy text because of older rulesets. We need to clean up the stuff that doesn't make sense anymore and leverage what the Tau have into something very practical.

Stuff like

Special issue wargear being one per army items when most of them aren't really that special or can't be used as a part of a unit
Markerlights not working for the unit that uses them
Drones losing relentless when they are added to Infantry units
Expendable drones counting against Tau units for Morale Checks
Ethereals causing Tau to Fall Back when killed
Crisis Suits not actually being Relentless
An armour save being an optional upgrade for the Kroot
Kroot losing some of their abilities if there aren't any trees on the board
Mandatory Devilfish on Pathfinders
Pathfinders as a Fast Attack unit that is supposed to remain stationary the whole game
Sniper Drone Teams as a separate unit to Pathfinders

Once those things were cleaned up, then I think it would take very little to make the Tau a premier codex again. Just increase the range or rate of fire of anything not a 'Rail' or 'Marker' type weapon and adjust the point costs (downwards) to more accurately reflect what the Tau units can do.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

First off, kroot aren't meatgrinder fodder like IG, they are mercenaries and they will value their own lives should it seem that the odds truly are against them. They are not idiots, as has been proven through the fluff. They'll even do better morally if they get paid more, but being chucked into a situation where they will all die? Yeah no, their greater good is Cold Hard Cash, and the tau understand that, even if they try to educate them about the greater good overall.

On the games workshop site, kroot have three evolutionary patterns that can be given to them as a way of changing them up.

Headhunters: 4+ poisoned on each of them

Stalkers: Infiltrate, MTC, Night Vision, and stealth

Vulturekin: Jump Infantry with Hit & Run

I think these actually work pretty well for templates on an evolutionary pattern, I honestly dislike the stat upgrades as it doesn't make sense thematically unless they change overall (kroot hounds and krootox for example) You could make other types of kroot that have evolved, but the base kroot should not advance far enough to gain stat upgrades unless they change physically enough that they can't resemble themselves (Vulturekin get a pass since it's just kroot with wings)

hence my point on "when necessary". its not the best use of them by a long shot. Regarding those evolutionary adaptations, i like them. stat upgrades have a precedent in the old kroot minidex with the nymune upgrade (fleet), the ork-hybrid (+1T) etc. if kroot can, in months, learn ot breathe chlorine, then they can be beefed up

Jefffar wrote:Dreadnight, my post was to show that options were already in place. We don't need to create new things to make the Tau work, we need to tweak the stuff that is already there.

As for your comment on +1 -1, to be honest, that isn't the issue for me, if the -1 was thought out and appropriate.

The problem the Tau face is that many of their units are +1 -2 or -3 with a lot of those negatives not making a lot of sense or being legacy text because of older rulesets. We need to clean up the stuff that doesn't make sense anymore and leverage what the Tau have into something very practical.

i completely disagree. +1-1 as a design philosophy was fine back in third. But in 5th, the power curve has simply been pushed out. everything now is +1, or even +2 or +3. things are *better* and *more powerful* than ever before. applying a +1-1 to the tau will simply result in their codex remaining at the bottom of the pile. the options may be in place, as you say. but they're terrible. an option is only worthy of consideration if its worth taking. Otherwise its wasted text. And might as well simply not be there. "tweaks" wont work here. tweaks to a rubbish codex are just that. Minor changes simply will not solve any of the major, and minor flaws we currently have. I want "new". I want "more". I dont want "rehashed".
Im sorry, but the imperial guard were not "tweaked". Some things were, and some were completely rewritten. Same with BLood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar... THe simply fact is the design philosophy of the game has moved on, and these old templates, and these old design philosophies are dinosaurs. they're extinct. and yet people still try and use them.

Jefffar wrote:
Special issue wargear being one per army items when most of them aren't really that special or can't be used as a part of a unit
Markerlights not working for the unit that uses them
Drones losing relentless when they are added to Infantry units
Expendable drones counting against Tau units for Morale Checks
Ethereals causing Tau to Fall Back when killed
Crisis Suits not actually being Relentless
An armour save being an optional upgrade for the Kroot
Kroot losing some of their abilities if there aren't any trees on the board
Mandatory Devilfish on Pathfinders
Pathfinders as a Fast Attack unit that is supposed to remain stationary the whole game
Sniper Drone Teams as a separate unit to Pathfinders

(1) suits need a redesign altogether. iirc GW were talking about 3 wounds basic, bs4, and omniguns. that is the solution. Not more SI gear, that is crap to begin with.
(2) markerlights arent all that and a bag of chips. Personally, i'd like to see how markerlights are used completely changed. i hate spending tokens. the red dot doesnt disappear if something else from another squad locks on. And furthermore, i dislike the small, incremental buffs they give to individual units. a little bit here... a little bit there... Old codex MLs were better. hits at bs5, no cover saves. If "spending" must remain, then they should be used to debuff an enemy unit (so anyone shooting at them claims the benefit), and not to buff a single friendly firing unit.
(3) agreed. but drones need to be expanded on. their role could be so much greater.
(4) makes sense to me. "DAMN! they killed my shield drones! next shot is me! i'm outta here". personally, im all for sacrificing drones. sacrifice thedrones to allow an automatically successful break off test from CC. and yes, there is a precedent in the FW rules for XV-9s.
(5) See my earlier post. etherials are a classic example of +1-1. causing the army to fall back is very thematic and characterful. Maybe if they acted like Bjorn, and counted as a new objective? personally though, i think it should remain, but the benefits they bering to the table need to be so much more than twin-linked morale to make it worth it. See? re-write. Not a tweak.
(6) relentless suits makes sense. they've always been that way.
(7) never bothered me to be honest. i like cheap kroot.
(8) see above post on pathfinders. "No" to devilfish, "yes" to "mission packages".
(9) As FA, the thing is they deply last. or at least they used to. if they had a way to become troops, id be all for it. but i've no serious issues with FA.
(10) get rid of sniper drone teams altogether, if you ask me. integrate rail rifle drones into the rest of the list. Any model with a drone controller can purchase rail rifle/pulse blaster drones. any drones controlled in such a way use their controllers BS, not their own (he controls them, it makes sense that he aims them, right?). Now, you can have suit/rail rifle drone squads. serious cost, but serious dakka. and fire warriors get access to extra dakka that will help them actually have a presence in a very thematic way.

Jefffar wrote:
Once those things were cleaned up, then I think it would take very little to make the Tau a premier codex again. Just increase the range or rate of fire of anything not a 'Rail' or 'Marker' type weapon and adjust the point costs (downwards) to more accurately reflect what the Tau units can do.

i think there is a lot more to it that tweaks and point cost reductions. cheaper fire warriors, for example, are not *better* fire warriors. they still suck. they still wont be taken. all it will do is let me take more kroot.