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Cerebrium wrote:Army-wide BS4. There's no reason the premier shooting army should be generally BS3.

Infinite Seeker Missiles and markerlights cheaper on FW Shas'uis. Fixed the "Fire Warriors lack means to tank-hunt" problem without breaking the "no organic special weapons" fluff.

Points cut 20% across the board.

Give Kroot something akin to a Bonding Knife.

Change Ethereals so they don't make your army objectively worse for taking them.

Why would the Tau have a BS4? They have no reason for a completely normal alien specis with no unique qualities in terms of skill with a weapon to be equel with a genetically engineered warrior with the sole purpose to improve their aiming ability.

What impression of a Fire Warrior do you feel of them? That they are equal to highly trained soldiers living in a war like society and as such they are very good shots (Cadians, Krieg, etc...) or they are equal to warriors who have been genetically enhanced to be the perfect killing machine? A Tau warrior fresh out of basic should probably not be equal to a enhanced person designed with the sole purpose to kill or soldier from a war like society with a decade or so combat experience under his belt.
It should be a BS 3. However Im approaching this from a fluff standpoint, from a crunch/gameplay stand up *shrugs*


Besides the request for a higher BS for the Firewarrior, I agree with a lot of these.

No way should they be BS4. the premier shooting army are a range of short lived bad eyesighted creatures who have already used technology to boost their shooting abilty to BS3.

No way should it ever be BS4

Galdos wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:Army-wide BS4. There's no reason the premier shooting army should be generally BS3.

Infinite Seeker Missiles and markerlights cheaper on FW Shas'uis. Fixed the "Fire Warriors lack means to tank-hunt" problem without breaking the "no organic special weapons" fluff.

Points cut 20% across the board.

Give Kroot something akin to a Bonding Knife.

Change Ethereals so they don't make your army objectively worse for taking them.

Why would the Tau have a BS4? They have no reason for a completely normal alien specis with no unique qualities in terms of skill with a weapon to be equel with a genetically engineered warrior with the sole purpose to improve their aiming ability.

What impression of a Fire Warrior do you feel of them? That they are equal to highly trained soldiers living in a war like society and as such they are very good shots (Cadians, Krieg, etc...) or they are equal to warriors who have been genetically enhanced to be the perfect killing machine? A Tau warrior fresh out of basic should probably not be equal to a enhanced person designed with the sole purpose to kill or soldier from a war like society with a decade or so combat experience under his belt.
It should be a BS 3. However Im approaching this from a fluff standpoint, from a crunch/gameplay stand up *shrugs*


Besides the request for a higher BS for the Firewarrior, I agree with a lot of these.

Remember, Fire warriors just like cadians are trained from youth to be soldiers: they traijn from birth because by birth right (plight?) you must be a soldier, if a gaurdsman who survived a few battles can have bs4 than so can soldiers who have been training their entirelife while being aided by the tactical aim systems in their distinctive helmet.

Juniperius wrote:
Remember, Fire warriors just like cadians are trained from youth to be soldiers: they traijn from birth because by birth right (plight?) you must be a soldier, if a gaurdsman who survived a few battles can have bs4 than so can soldiers who have been training their entirelife while being aided by the tactical aim systems in their distinctive helmet.

But Fire Warriors have a much shorter life span. From birth training only means 4 or 5 years for them.

@Juniperius

...Which is why Fire Warrior Veterans bought with an Ethereal are BS4.

Cadian Guardsmen are BS3 and are trained from birth as soldiers.
Fire Warriors are BS3 are are trained from birth as soldiers.
Cadian Veterans are BS4 because they're battle-hardened veterans.
Fire Warrior Veterans are BS4 because they're battle-hardened veterans.

Why do the run-of-the-mill soldiers need BS4?

Avatar 720 wrote:@Juniperius

...Which is why Fire Warrior Veterans bought with an Ethereal are BS4.

Cadian Guardsmen are BS3 and are trained from birth as soldiers.
Fire Warriors are BS3 are are trained from birth as soldiers.
Cadian Veterans are BS4 because they're battle-hardened veterans.
Fire Warrior Veterans are BS4 because they're battle-hardened veterans.

Why do the run-of-the-mill soldiers need BS4?

Now that you make your point like that, i must abdicate and agree, however i think that fire warrior veterans should be an option so i wouldn't have to buy a target (ethereal) to have bs4 fire warriors.
I just think that vets shouldn't have bs4 too, but i'll savour that for another discussion.

Avatar 720 wrote:@Juniperius

...Which is why Fire Warrior Veterans bought with an Ethereal are BS4.

Cadian Guardsmen are BS3 and are trained from birth as soldiers.
Fire Warriors are BS3 are are trained from birth as soldiers.
Cadian Veterans are BS4 because they're battle-hardened veterans.
Fire Warrior Veterans are BS4 because they're battle-hardened veterans.

Why do the run-of-the-mill soldiers need BS4?

Thats what I was trying to say, thank you

Avatar 720 wrote:@Juniperius

...Which is why Fire Warrior Veterans bought with an Ethereal are BS4.

Cadian Guardsmen are BS3 and are trained from birth as soldiers.
Fire Warriors are BS3 are are trained from birth as soldiers.
Cadian Veterans are BS4 because they're battle-hardened veterans.
Fire Warrior Veterans are BS4 because they're battle-hardened veterans.

Why do the run-of-the-mill soldiers need BS4?

Because Tau largely work with better-than-BS3 mechanics already. But they do so with a rather clunky mechanic called "markerlights" which requires unnecessary die-rolls that slow the game down and needlessly dublicates an existing mechanic for measuring accuracy with ranged weapons, namely BS.

Need some random fluff-line to keep the nerds happy? Well, something like "Tau make extensive use of markerlights and similar targeting technology: Game Effect, BS4".

Each 40K faction has their own fluff schtick. Marines get 4 stats because they are "bio-engineered": IG Veterans get 4 stats because they are "battle-hardend". Eldar get 4 stats becaus they are "old and Elves": Nids get 4 stats because they are "specialized organisms": Necrons get 4 stats because.. well, robots. Tau get 4 stats because of .. probably technology. If that doesn't float your boat, give em BS 4 because they are close with the goddess of luck. Or because they have subconcious access to precognition seeing where their enemies will be. Or whatever. It's just fluff. The point is to get rid of clunky parallel mechanics and use the base-stateline for the same effect. Fluff can be adapted to fit.

^ But Markerlights aren't for BS increasing purposes only. They can decrease cover, reduce Ld for pinning and call down Seeker Missiles. So if you take out Markerlights for better BS, you need to replace its other functions with other army/game mechanics... And then, what was the whole point of taking out markerlights?

AtoMaki wrote:^ But Markerlights aren't for BS increasing purposes only. They can decrease cover, reduce Ld for pinning and call down Seeker Missiles. So if you take out Markerlights for better BS, you need to replace its other functions with other army/game mechanics... And then, what was the whole point of taking out markerlights?

You don't. You up Tau to BS4 so they have the basic functionality of a shooty army. You then use the markerlights to develop a lean, clean mechanic that provides added bonuses, such as removing an opponents cover save for example. There is a difference players to jump through extra-loops just to get the "basic workings" of a shooty army in place, or to provide them with a unique, fluffy treat that can enhance their units over and above "the norm" to provide some unique tricks (e.g. Orders for IG, Psychic Powers for Eldar, Chapter Tactics for Marines, perhaps Markerlights for Tau).

But you already used up the markerlights to justify the BS4. And i also cannot see the point to sacrifice the BS increasing ability for some medicore effect (+1 BS) when i could have much better (BS 5) with the original markerlight.

Lets see:

Cheaper stuff all over the codex
Markerlights changed to assault
A few new models, more aliens basically and 1-2 new tau stuffs
Battlesuit HQ's are mostly fine, could have the ability to take different suit types rather than just xv8's, if taken with stealth suit makes stealth suits troops
Ethereals need hardwired shield generators and the ability to take honor guard fire warriors as troops, BS 4 fire warriors
Kroot HQ, nuff said
Vespid HQ, fun idea, or stupid fat bug? Makes vespids troops
New alien HQ, whatever it would be, Makes them troops.

Note: all "Makes X troops could become allows 0-1 of a unit to be troops"

Elites: Battlesuits are doing their thing, this slot needs 2-3 more options though

Troops: Being able to take human auxillerys might be fun, otherwise see above regarding troops

Fast attack: Pathfinders, required unit, don't need to take the devilfish, the required unit of pathfinders is a fast attack unit that doesn't take a slot. Pathfinders have BS 4, it's easy to shoot a laser.

Vespid need rending and need the ability where they don't roll for any terrain stuff but dangerous terrain tests.

Heavy support: Biggest issue with tau codex, broadsides are ok. Hammerhead railguns need ordinance, their submunition needs barrage. Skyrays need 1-2 more different kinds of missiles they can fire, missiles need to reload every round, either with a roll of automatically. Sniper teams need to move to troops slot.

Oh, and a failsafe drone. Please. A single drone that does the same gak as the failesafe device in the codex, allowing me to have the last laugh, for the greater good.

AtoMaki wrote:But you already used up the markerlights to justify the BS4. And i also cannot see the point to sacrifice the BS increasing ability for some medicore effect (+1 BS) when i could have much better (BS 5) with the original markerlight.

No. I used markerslights as an example that any piece of fluff can easily justify BS4. Yes, if you use markerlights for that, you'd have to use/invent something other for "fun stuff" like, for example, removing cover savers. If you use something other than markerlights for BS4 (say.. targeting mechanisms, personal target locks, etc..) you can still use "markerlights" for somethings else. But that's just nitpicking fluff terms, which should be the focus of solid rules-and-army-design.

Zweischneid wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:@Juniperius

...Which is why Fire Warrior Veterans bought with an Ethereal are BS4.

Cadian Guardsmen are BS3 and are trained from birth as soldiers.
Fire Warriors are BS3 are are trained from birth as soldiers.
Cadian Veterans are BS4 because they're battle-hardened veterans.
Fire Warrior Veterans are BS4 because they're battle-hardened veterans.

Why do the run-of-the-mill soldiers need BS4?

Because Tau largely work with better-than-BS3 mechanics already. But they do so with a rather clunky mechanic called "markerlights" which requires unnecessary die-rolls that slow the game down and needlessly dublicates an existing mechanic for measuring accuracy with ranged weapons, namely BS.

Honestly, if they're slowing the game down that much than you need to speed things up in general. Markerlights are fine.

Need some random fluff-line to keep the nerds happy? Well, something like "Tau make extensive use of markerlights and similar targeting technology: Game Effect, BS4".

That's already the line used to give them BS3. Fire Warriors aren't guardsmen in better armour, they have terrible depth perception and see things differently from other races, their technology is what has allowed them to counteract this, and Targeting Arrays, the likes of which can currently only be installed in battlesuits and vehicles due to size, weight, and complexity, are the only things able to add any sort of increased efficiency.

Each 40K faction has their own fluff schtick. Marines get 4 stats because they are "bio-engineered": IG Veterans get 4 stats because they are "battle-hardend". Eldar get 4 stats becaus they are "old and Elves": Nids get 4 stats because they are "specialized organisms": Necrons get 4 stats because.. well, robots. Tau get 4 stats because of .. probably technology. If that doesn't float your boat, give em BS 4 because they are close with the goddess of luck. Or because they have subconcious access to precognition seeing where their enemies will be. Or whatever. It's just fluff. The point is to get rid of clunky parallel mechanics and use the base-stateline for the same effect. Fluff can be adapted to fit.

None of that is a reason to give basic FWs BS4. Battle hardened veterans and specialised troops get BS4, and that is true in every codex; Eldar get it through HQs and Aspect Warriors because they are specialised and highly experienced veterans; Marines get it for the same reason; IG only get it on Veterans and other experienced models; Nids only get it on Doom, -Thropes, Hive Guard, and Tyranid Primes, because they are all specialised, the first three specialised in ranged and psychic warfare, the Prime specialised to be an all-round warrior; DEldar get it for the same reason as Eldar; Necrons because they're the most advanced civillisation in the game; what is wrong about that? Why do basic Fire Warrior troops get BS4? They are basic troops not veterans or specialised units, Gaunts, Guardians, Guardsmen, SM Scouts, all get BS3, what makes Fire Warriors so much better? Nothing.

AtoMaki wrote:
Doh! The relationship between the Tau Empire and the Blue Star Alliance is rather... unwelcoming since the Unification Wars. So i don't know if an Etheral can attend on the Blue Star Alliance Academy of Psyscience . On another note: seeing the psychic powers of my codex popping up in another thread was surprising. But it made my day, thank you !

Actually while reaching the Ethereal, I came across this guy, which reminded me of the Halo prophets.





And then while waiting for people to reply, I came across your Blue Star Alliance Codex and thought most predominantly the spell that blocks movement was F'ing brilliant.

broodstar wrote:
And then while waiting for people to reply, I came across your Blue Star Alliance Codex and thought most predominantly the spell that blocks movement was F'ing brilliant.

Heh, and i see you liked other stuff in that codex as well (walkers, caustic weapons, lance disruptors).

Current fluff be damned when considering justification for stats and abilities. If Necrons can go from mindless killing robots to robots with personalities and individual goals the Tau can transform into any thing that will allow them to compete competitivly with any of the OTT power Codexs that have been released recently.

At some point my Tau army is going to have to fight against BA, SW, GK and the next yet to be released Matt Ward codex. it would be nice if we had an even chance of winning against them.

However, you probably should not change the feel of the codex. Tau do it in the shooting stage. Our army is not a horde army. A 1500 point army should have somewhere between 40-60 models including vehicles. 3+ and 2+ saves found on only the strongest elements and regardless of how killy Firewarriors are made out to be they need to be able to hold objectives. You can't win without that.

AtoMaki wrote:
Heh, and i see you liked other stuff in that codex as well (walkers, caustic weapons, lance disruptors).

There are a few things, most of it I didn't.

I don't understand why crisis suits only bring you up to that of the tactical marine. I think IG should be a swarm shooting army where as Tau are an elite shooting army. Tau aren't really that good outside their suit but it's their technology that makes them powerful.

We can write into the story that with the Gorgon's assault on Sha'draig: the Tau were pushed to their limit, amazing technologies were discovered in Kor'O'Vanan's plight to defend that colony. In that fight the Ethereals learned (not though teaching) some powers, these powers came accidentally in response to a need. The veterans of Sha'draig brought back with them, the new weaponry.

I also liked your Savage Monstrosity, were you thinking of like some Kroot Elephant? I'd like to see just like Blood Angel can write an all Death Company list, Tau should be able to write and all Kroot list.

I think based off of your caustic weapons, Kroot should understand poison at almost an instinctive level. Kroot should be really similar to the Tyranid, Almost all the Tyranid stains can be bred to have venom, however it's only the Tyranid Venomthrope that carries the most potent strain of venom.

broodstar wrote:
There are a few things, most of it I didn't.

Would you mind to share your thoughts about the 'dex in its topic?

And before you begin to write your own Tau fandex, i strongly recommend to check out the other fandexes first. Chrisrawr's Tau fandex should be your no.1 read (it is somewhere on the 1st page on the Proposed Rules). Oh, and of course don't forget to dig up all kind of Tau material (like Forgeworld units) that can be found on the internet.

LunaHound wrote:

Remove Kroot woodcraft and give them stealth or something -.-

No.

Give them stealth too, that'd be cool, but don't take away my 2+ G2G in woods cover save.

20 models with 2+...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I also liked your Savage Monstrosity, were you thinking of like some Kroot Elephant? I'd like to see just like Blood Angel can write an all Death Company list, Tau should be able to write and all Kroot list.

There's already a kroot mercs unofficial codex, written by GW authors.

Make an all Kroot or all ally army possible.

Make everything cheaper.

FW at BS4.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:
FW at BS4.

Funny to see people say one thing and another group of people say the exact opposite somewhere else (Can be seen on any topic that has opinions)

Some of the things I've always wanted to see are drones attached to vehicles being able to detach and engage a unit trying to assault the vehicle.

And a Broadside upgrade that removes the SMS in place of a deployable shield. If you decide to deploy the shield then you gain +1T and gain a 5+ invul save.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Make an all Kroot or all ally army possible.

Make everything cheaper.

FW at BS4.

Make them cheaper, but also make them better too! /sarcasm

People simply aren't creative enough with their buffing of fire warriors. BS4 is such a boring uncreative "fix" that it doesn't really fix anything.

I propose that instead of fixing the tau's BS. They should fix Markerlights. Something like this for example.

Firewarrior Shas'ui (or whatever they call them) markerlights. On each shooting phase pick one of the following.
Fire warriors hit on 3+
Cover saves taken against this unit are at -1.
Wounds this unit deals count as pinning.

Now you have markerlights that don't suck as they are a passive effect that buffs the unit. No more rolling to hit or needing to stand still to use them. The tau maintain their "fluffy" BS3 but have a guaranteed work around. And you can have a few options depending on what you are firing on.

Trying to kill a few gaunts in terrain before they reach your line? Rapid fire into them and remove some of that cover save to ensure the kill. A unit with a save your guns don't pierce? Throw those pinning checks on them.

The way to make fire warriors work is not to just give them BS4 and call it a day. But to give them tools that allow them to do their job. Fixing markerlights would go a lot further than just buffing their BS.

I would allow bs 4 firewarriors if all standard guardsmen got bs 4 ad well. Its only fair. Fluff wise tau have horrible eyesight. So they have machines to make them bs 3, instead of bs 2. So if they magically get +1bs, so should guardsmen...

Isn't the whole thing about Tau having "horrible" eyesight from an old stand alone xenobiology book of some sorts? I never remember hearing about anywhere except from there. And it didn't say they had horrible eye sight, just poor depth perception. It does actually make a difference, since the poor depth perception would have a bigger impact on CC than it would shooting at a target from a distance.

Also, stop comparing guard to Tau. Guard get a crap ton of special weapons in their troop choices, where Tau get none. Guard have huge numbers on their side so it'd be insane to give them BS4 on the standard unit. Tau can't take Firewarrior blobs, so it doesn't have as big of an effect.

And I agree that Firewarriors shouldn't get BS4 starting off. It's annoying, but it won't fix their bigger downfalls like not having special weapons and having no real role other than objective holding.

And also, as previously stated, fluff means nothing. C'tan went from being Star eating invisible space wizards and got turned into enslaved toe nail clippings of the Gods to be used as the Necrons see fit.

Problem is that Firewarriors are just used as minimum-units of 6, no upgrades, hide in a Fish. And even that just so that because you have to take them. Making FWs cheaper just means people will pay less for those minimum-units of 6 and spend their points elsewhere.

FWs need BS4. And then, on top, they need some tricks to leverage that BS4 with some extra punch that makes them worthwhile taking and a viable alternative for investing points in, even if it means less points for crisis suits, hammerheads, broadsides, whatever. If that means ret-conning that fluff about eyesight, which was only made to justify the BS3 Tau under the old game design in the first place, so be it. Tau were fine with BS3 in 3rd Edition. In 6th, they wont. Rules will need to be changed. Fluff will need to be changed.

BS4 is not the "basics" of a shooting army. BS4 is a boring way to try to "fix" something that isnt an issue right now.

Firewarriors are not amazing shooters, they are well trained with some tech enhancements - BS3. thats it.

They do not "need" BS4. It makes naff all difference to the utility of a FW team.

Actually one thing in thinking of to buff Tau infantry (although I do think Tau should be a mech army) is to buff the heavy weapons.

When I think of the Rail Rifle I think of the Barrett M82.



So picture this story, A Tau Fire Warrior sees some marines coming toward their base. The Tau sighs and flips the marines off, then gets behind this rifle that is so big it can be confused for a cannon. He fires and the bullet goes screaming down range. The bullet goes through people and building, it doesn't care what is in the way. That one shot kills 3 marines and hits the Rhino in the engine which causes it to blow up.