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Yeah, the Drones are one of the things I feel they really messed up on.

1) BS 2 . . . 2? I can give the Shas'la 3 comfortably, but the Drones at 2? No. They need to be BS 3 (4 on the Sniper and Marker Drones).

2) Flip-flopping on them being Relentless depending on who they are floating beside.

3) Having them count for Morale tests. They are supposed to be expendable for fething sake.

4) While I don't think they should necessarily be Fearless when in separate squadrons (I can imagine their CPUs getting overwhelmed by the chaos of battle and the Drones either not doing anythign for a turn (ie being pinned) or returning to base for further instructions (ie Fall Back) I do think they need to at least be stubborn when independent. Also, since their AI's network when they are independent to improve their processing power, perhaps a version of the Ork Mob Rule where the Ld of a group of drones is dependent on how many drones are in the group.

I think they should gain some sort of ATSKNF rule when independent; rack it up to them calculating a higher chance of success if they fall back, regroup and reassess the situation.

Sounds more like Combat Tactics than ATSKNF. ATSKNF allows for rallying when below 50%, like a Bonding Knife.

I actually think Combat Tactics makes a lot of sense for the Tau, what with their natural penchant for falling back from advancing enemies.

ATSKNF isn't just rallying under 50%, it's an auto-rally even if under 50%, but everything else applying (such as no rallying within 6" of an enemy model).

The auto-rallying is the main part I want.

For the Drones, I can see that. The Tau get Bonding knives and the Auxilliaries have such poor armour they die out before they get a chance to run anyway.


Here's an interesting one. Take independant drone units (ie Gun Drone Squadron, Heavy Gun Drone Squadron, Sensor Towers and Sentry Drones) out of the FOC altogether. Make them add on units that don't tie up a slot.

Sniper Drone teams have a spotter so they wouldn't be in that list. Besides, I'd rather take them, Pathfinders, and Stealth teams and mix them all together into a nasty mobile, stealthy unit that can either be configured for marking and sniping or commando raiding.

Basically each Stealth suit would be able to carry a Carbine + Markerlight, Rail Rifle + Target Lock, Burst Cannon or Fusion Blaster. The team leader could also equip with a Marker Beacon. Make it an elite slot and you have Tau Special Forces ready for action.

You made me remember the abomination that is the heavy gun drone. I'm going to go drink now.

Savageconvoy wrote:You made me remember the abomination that is the heavy gun drone. I'm going to go drink now.

What's so fearful about TL burst cannons? or burst cannon and markerlight? Seriously, it drains your railgun supply and isn't even useful.

Or do you mean how bad it is.

How bad they are. When I first read their entry I thought it was some kind of joke. Then when I saw they were heavy support I almost rage puked.

Hence one of the reasons I think Drones should be moved out of the FOC.

"I'm making all the suits walkers so crisis will be front armor value 12 and Broadsides will be front armor value 13"

Not sure this is the way to go, also don't believe that the crisis suits, even if walkers, would have such high armor values. They are lighters, not walking armored boxes like dreadnoughts.

Also if you make them walkers then the leader can no longer be in a suit. I think the best improvement for the crisis suits would be to Make them work more like termie armor: 2+ or 3+ armor save with a built in invulnerable save as well. Right now they are just too fragile and if you put your leader in one you have the option of using him offensively and watching him pop really fast or having him hiding out a lot and wasting the points. Making them walker's changes their concept a bit more dramatically.

Skriker

My friends (who both play Tau) abuse the heck out of Markerlights. When you have 3 full units of fire warriors firing on you with BS5, things tend to go poorly.

Skriker wrote:"I'm making all the suits walkers so crisis will be front armor value 12 and Broadsides will be front armor value 13"

Not sure this is the way to go, also don't believe that the crisis suits, even if walkers, would have such high armor values. They are lighters, not walking armored boxes like dreadnoughts.

Also if you make them walkers then the leader can no longer be in a suit. I think the best improvement for the crisis suits would be to Make them work more like termie armor: 2+ or 3+ armor save with a built in invulnerable save as well. Right now they are just too fragile and if you put your leader in one you have the option of using him offensively and watching him pop really fast or having him hiding out a lot and wasting the points. Making them walker's changes their concept a bit more dramatically.

Skriker

Crisis with 2+/5++ and broadsides with av 10/11 would at least make fluff sense.

Because it doesn't make sense that striking scorpion armour is as durable as that of crisis suits.

or, I think making them T5 alone would be enough to make them so much better. Because I mean how much better would they be if they were impossible to ID with krak and lascannons?

And a 3m tall giant battlesuit thing should really be tougher than a 2m tall superman.

imrandomghgh wrote:or, I think making them T5 alone would be enough to make them so much better. Because I mean how much better would they be if they were impossible to ID with krak and lascannons?

And a 3m tall giant battlesuit thing should really be tougher than a 2m tall superman.

That toughness increase would definitely help. Just as they are now if they get sneezed on they break.

As for the comparison to terminators, the terminators are space marines after all, and we can't have anything in the game that is better than a space marine! Tongue firmly in cheek here.

Skriker

Skriker wrote:

imrandomghgh wrote:or, I think making them T5 alone would be enough to make them so much better. Because I mean how much better would they be if they were impossible to ID with krak and lascannons?

And a 3m tall giant battlesuit thing should really be tougher than a 2m tall superman.

That toughness increase would definitely help. Just as they are now if they get sneezed on they break.

As for the comparison to terminators, the terminators are space marines after all, and we can't have anything in the game that is better than a space marine! Tongue firmly in cheek here.

Skriker

I think you hit the part about the space marines dead on.

Because a multi-ton gigantic battlesuit with weapons on slightly weaker than those of a dreadnought could never match is protection to heavy armour IN SPAAAACE

There are a lot of problems with the Tau as currently implemented, so I will focus mostly on Firewarriors for now.

The problem with Firewarriors is that they are essentially just a variation on Eldar Dire Avengers, anti-infantry specialist that are good at little more than fighting light/medium infantry. And they are not even good at that, as ubiquitous 5th edition cover saves and codex creep have rendered them rather impotent at even this basic function. In many ways Dire Avengers are more flexible, with the ability to take Warlocks and the far more effective albeit more expensive Waveserpent transport. And unlike Firewarriors, Eldar have an assortment of other troops choices to oversee other duties.

Even the Firewarrior's signature weapon is of little benefit. Sure, its useful against AV10 vehicles an some higher toughness models in a pinch, but most of the time its just another way to increase the statistics of wounding, interchangeable with improved BS, ROF or decreased model cost. And its not enough of an increased chance to justify the high point cost and other shortcomings of firewarriors.

Kroot do offer a rather excellent alternative Firewarriors, but unfortunately still end up filling the same tactical niche. Their boltguns perform the same anti-infantry function as the pulse rifle, albeit better against T3 and T4 do the reduced model cost, and the ability to assault, while highly welcomed, is just another source of str 4 attacks.

At the end of the day, there are a large range of threats, such as Rhino/Razorback/Chimera spam, for which all Tau troops are largely ineffective against. And this problem that cannot be corrected by a simple increase in stats, BS4 firewarrios will be just as useless against Chimera front armor as BS3 firewarriors for instance. These shortcomings, especially combined with the crippling price of the Devilfish, lead a number of serious problems with Tau list design:

-In order to field enough troops to reliably claim objectives, Tau are forced to forgo a considerable degree of more specialized types of firepower, such as template attacks, anti-vehicle or anti-TEQ shooting, and substitute it with an excessive amount of anti-light infantry firepower.

-To avoid further exacerbating the above problem, units that primarily provide anti-light infantry shooting outside of the troops slots need to be avoided in competitive list. So Gun Drone squads, Stealth Suit squads and burst cannons on Crisis Suits have no place in competitive list.

-Because not even the most basic special weapons, including flamers and meltaguns, can be taken within the troops slot, Crisis Suits or vehicles end up fielding these weapons instead, which are considerably weaker than what they should be fielding. There is something wrong when an IG veteran can pack a heavy flamer but the signature elite shooting unit of the Tau are restricted to normal flamers.

In light of the above problems, Tau troops require at least two changes. First, their firepower to cost ratio needs to be increased, both to put it in line with the 5th edition power creep and to ensure that Tau shooting is at least marginally superior to that of most 5th edition codices. Secondly, more specialized firepower needs find its way into the troops section to avoid the aforementioned problems. This could be done in several ways

1. Introduce new troops choices capable of using heavy or special weapons. Perhaps just special weapons, as they can remain mobile on normal troops. Heavy weapons can then be restricted to seeker missiles, vehicles and battlesuits who would not be hampered by them.

2. Fix seeker missiles and markerlights. Makerlights need to be assault if firewarriors or other troops are supposed to use them to call in seeker missiles, otherwise why not just cut out the middleman and have the troops carry around missile launchers. Seeker missiles need to have unlimited shots as they are just crack missiles, and 10 points per shot is absurdly expensive for krak missiles.

3. Let firewarriors carry special weapons but not heavy weapons. I know some people consider firewarriors carrying special weapons heresy. However, the reason for this restriction is to keep to firewarriors mobile while restricting the heaver stuff to the battlesuits, who will not be encumbered by such weapons. However, special weapons are no more restricting than the firewarrior pulse rifles, so this shouldn't be a problem. As an added bonus, with the firewarriors now wielding the flamers and meltaguns, Crisis Suits can then be freed to carry around genuine heavy weapons.

Also, for the love of all that is good and holy, pulse carbines need to be assault 2. They are worthless as currently implemented.