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hence my point on "when necessary". its not the best use of them by a long shot. Regarding those evolutionary adaptations, i like them. stat upgrades have a precedent in the old kroot minidex with the nymune upgrade (fleet), the ork-hybrid (+1T) etc. if kroot can, in months, learn ot breathe chlorine, then they can be beefed up

I'll admit that the kroot mini-dex is one of the very few I've yet to find (I actually didn't know about it till now) And I still even have the old feral ork list alongside the harlequins, but I guess I didn't come across as properly. When I meant by stat upgrades, I just meant that they shouldn't provide just one stat upgrade and that is it, if there is to be an evolutionary guideline, it should be more along the line of.

Kroot-Ork: +1T, -2I, Furious Charge, Mob Mentality (Gains bonus leadership for nearby extra Kroot-Ork units)

Not just a +1T or +1I, but something a bit more "pathish" rather than "statish", this way it can be more advanced without needing to have odd things here and there (Mixing and matching would be hectic on the army lists, it was removed from tyranids for a reason) Because the alternative would just be a mild +1 stat bonus across the entire group that could only take one thing, which didn't work for Chaos Marks than (And still doesn't), and it wouldn't really work now.

After some pondering, i got the follwoing ideas that could (potentially) make the Tau super-cool:

- Markerlights happen at the start of the Tau shooting phase, before shooting. They hit on a 2+, and don't count as shooting in any respects but they need LoS and they must be within range as normal. Effects as currently, except that cover decreasing is capped at 6+ and Ld decreasing effects breaking tests too.
- Seeker Missiles are auto-hitting and have two firing modes: a compact (S9, AP1, 2D6 armour pen, InstaKill regardless of Toughness) and a submunitions (S6, AP3, Large Blast). They are always treated as Barrage weapons. Seeker missiles are no longer upgrades for vehicles, but may be bought as a Heavy Support selection (don't take up HS slot though) for 10 points per missile. No limit on how many missile you can buy.
- Sky Rays are revamped to defense units. They have Coteaz's reserve-overwatch rule and carry special Seeker missiles (S8, AP2, Large Blast, always fired with BS5). Tough they can fire only 2 missiles per player turn and they have Limited Ammunition (8).
- Fire Warriors gain some sort of "Suppressing Fire" ability: if they cause more hits on a unit than models it has, then the unit is automatically pinned (regardless of Ld, Fearless or anything). If the FWs se Pinning weapons then the number of their hits are doubled for the purpose of "Supressing Fire".
- Also, Pulse Rifles are Heavy 2/Rapid Fire and Pulse Carbines are Assault 2+Pinning.
- Obliterator Crisis suits! Yeah, silly idea, but more i think about it, better i like it. So each Crisis suit carries four weapons (one AT, one anti-GEQ, one anti-MEQ/TEQ and one anti-light vehicle). Something like a Multi-Melta, an Airbursting Frag Projector, a 24" range Plasma Cannon (with S6) and a Missile Pod that penetrates armour like Ordnance.
- Oh, and all suits are T4(5), except Stealth Suits what are just T3.
- Railguns have a +2 damage modifier (including the +1 for AP1) on the vehicle damage table.
- All drones have Close Protection (or what's the name).

I guess that's all so far.

Deadnight wrote:i think there is a lot more to it that tweaks and point cost reductions. cheaper fire warriors, for example, are not *better* fire warriors. they still suck. they still wont be taken. all it will do is let me take more kroot.

With is one of the reasons I suggested upping the rate of fire of their weapons and getting that BS boost within the squad through an organic marker light.

If Firewarriors always laid down 2 shots per and fired at BS 4 half the time without the help of another unit they would be a lot more killy.

Jefffar wrote:

With is one of the reasons I suggested upping the rate of fire of their weapons and getting that BS boost within the squad through an organic marker light.

If Firewarriors always laid down 2 shots per and fired at BS 4 half the time without the help of another unit they would be a lot more killy.

in this, we are in agreement. i was one of the first (might even be the first, actually - not sure there) to suggest, and root for h2 rifles, and a2 carbines, along with better access to powered up drone mounted weapon systems. BS4 can be justified. Im not against the idea, as i can see it as an alternative.

I'll admit that the kroot mini-dex is one of the very few I've yet to find (I actually didn't know about it till now) And I still even have the old feral ork list alongside the harlequins, but I guess I didn't come across as properly. When I meant by stat upgrades, I just meant that they shouldn't provide just one stat upgrade and that is it, if there is to be an evolutionary guideline, it should be more along the line of.

i dunno. Kroot have very limited space to take onboard new genes to be honest. to me it makes far more sense that a kroot takes an individual trait from what its eating, rather than its entire genome.

Kroot-Ork: +1T, -2I, Furious Charge, Mob Mentality (Gains bonus leadership for nearby extra Kroot-Ork units)

See above. the path sounds OK in theory, but ultimately i dont think its the right way forward. its about kroot taking on individual traits, not the whole genome. +1t, -2i, FC. mob mentality. that makes them orks in all but name. And how much will this cost? ideally, i want one trait, for +1pt a model, or +2 at most. i dont want orks working for the tau. but kroot with some ork traits? perfect. quite easily represented by t4.

Not just a +1T or +1I, but something a bit more "pathish" rather than "statish", this way it can be more advanced without needing to have odd things here and there (Mixing and matching would be hectic on the army lists, it was removed from tyranids for a reason) Because the alternative would just be a mild +1 stat bonus across the entire group that could only take one thing, which didn't work for Chaos Marks than (And still doesn't), and it wouldn't really work now.

why mix and match? kindreds follow their shaper. he picks an evolutionary adaptation, and the whole kindred get upgraded with it. simples! Mild stat bonuses would work for kroot, if you ask me. you mention the chaos codex. there is nothing wrong with marks. +1t, +1i, +1a, and a 4+inv are all fine. the problem with codex:chaos is that thats as far as it goes. you cant have plague marine terminators. you cant have berzerker bikers, or noise marine havoks. the problem is that, essentially as an adherent to nurgle gets promoted, he goes from an awesome plague marine to a really dodgy terminator!

jgehunter wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:Army-wide BS4. There's no reason the premier shooting army should be generally BS3.

I don't know the codex, but it may be to do with game balance. At least when the codex was not outdated.

Yeah, Tau players don't realize that with BS4 and S5 weapons, the Tau units would be significantly more expensive than they are now. Probably on par with Space Marines.

Would fundamentally change how the army plays. The Firewarrior is a professional soldier like a Guardsman. Technology is their advantage, not being significantly better.

Yeah, Tau players don't realize that with BS4 and S5 weapons, the Tau units would be significantly more expensive than they are now. Probably on par with Space Marines.

Immortals are the closest thing to that, they have S5 AP4 (change with telsa) With a space marine statline. for 1 point more than a marine.

The closest would be more like sisters of battle, which are around 10 points.

Tau having BS 4 would make them around there, since SoB have BS4 as well. I'd say about 10 points per model still, due to the lack of special weaponry, due to the decreased initiative, due to the lower stats on leadership, no special rules like acts of faith or shield of faith.

Basically BS4 would only justify it still being 10 points.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Yeah, Tau players don't realize that with BS4 and S5 weapons, the Tau units would be significantly more expensive than they are now. Probably on par with Space Marines.

Would fundamentally change how the army plays. The Firewarrior is a professional soldier like a Guardsman. Technology is their advantage, not being significantly better.

marines used to cost 15 for a marine with a bolter. now they're 1pt more for a bolter,bolt pistol, frags and kraks. space wolves get ccws in the mix as well. a bs4 fire warrior, with a 4+ save and an s5 gun. if sisters of battle cost less than 10pts for power armour, bs4 and boltguns, and all the regular equipment on top of that, then 10pts for a fire warrior that is bs4, and loaded with a pulse rifle, pulse pistol, defensive grenades is entirely reasonable. this is 5th ed. its all about the troops. and troops are getting cheaper.

if i had to pay 15pts for a fire warrior, id expect ap2 rifles.

space wolves get ccws in the mix as well.

Please don't bring them in, there's an example of balancing in the others, space wolves still have the issue with having both bad internal and external balance. At least untill they bring all space marines down to that level anyways.

Crisis Suits not actually being Relentless

They actually are. Jump packs=relentless.

Plus, they don't have a single heavy weapon other than the forgeworld SMS sooo...

imrandomghgh wrote:

Crisis Suits not actually being Relentless

They actually are. Jump packs=relentless.

Plus, they don't have a single heavy weapon other than the forgeworld SMS sooo...

Crisis Suits have the following nerfs, which remove some of the jump pack (jet pack) advantages. Specifically:

* They are relentless, but not for the purposes of heavy weapons. Although none of the weapons for Crisis Suits in the codex are heavy, markerlights are, which means the Crisis Suits are useless as a platform for marker drones and marker drones are a useless upgrade for Crisis Suits.

* They don't get to make their six-inch jump on the turn they Deep Strike.

Both of these nerfs are quite worthless, and add to the general atmosphere of "you get something cool, but it will cost you so much that it's useless" or "you get something cool, but an important part of it is removed" that permeates the codex.

Yeah, the team lead of a Crisis Suit Team gets to carry a markerlight if he so chooses. So every Crisis Suit Team has access to Heavy Weapons, not just the Forgeworld ones.

Overall I think the Crisis Suits need more 'heavy' weapons. So many of their options require you to get within 12 inches to get any real effectiveness out of them it's ridiculous for an army that more or less prides itself on being the worst close combat army in the game.

Make them truly relentless and make the Fusion Blaster a Multi-Melta instead of a Meltagun. Make the Plasma Rifle Heavy 2 and the Burst Cannon Heavy 4 and reach out 24 inches.

Although none of the weapons for Crisis Suits in the codex are heavy, markerlights are, which means the Crisis Suits are useless as a platform for marker drones and marker drones are a useless upgrade for Crisis Suits.

Drones adopt the unit type of the unit they are bought for. Marker Drones bought for Crisis Teams inherit their type as Jump Infantry (Jet Pack), and are therefore relentless, making them a viable upgrade.

"Infantry(Jet Pack)" is not a unit type. Infantry is a type. Jumppack is a type.

Jetpack is wargear. Sadly. And only Shield drones take on the save and toughness of their parent.

ElectricPaladin wrote:

imrandomghgh wrote:

Crisis Suits not actually being Relentless

They actually are. Jump packs=relentless.

Plus, they don't have a single heavy weapon other than the forgeworld SMS sooo...

Crisis Suits have the following nerfs, which remove some of the jump pack (jet pack) advantages. Specifically:

* They are relentless, but not for the purposes of heavy weapons. Although none of the weapons for Crisis Suits in the codex are heavy, markerlights are, which means the Crisis Suits are useless as a platform for marker drones and marker drones are a useless upgrade for Crisis Suits.

* They don't get to make their six-inch jump on the turn they Deep Strike.

Both of these nerfs are quite worthless, and add to the general atmosphere of "you get something cool, but it will cost you so much that it's useless" or "you get something cool, but an important part of it is removed" that permeates the codex.

That was written in 4th ed, the relentless-jetpack rule is 5ed. It is just like the target priority tests, it is a leftover from the previous edition and no longer applies. Plus, that restriction would not have applied to marker drones even in 4th ed, as they are not part of the crisis suit.

Cite your source sir. 4th Ed it no argument I recognize.

The fact is, the Jetpacks are a sidebar in the main rulebook, and are not a unit TYPE. The unit types are listed at the very beginning of the book and then explained later. It does not include Infantry(jetpack). So a Markerlight in a Crisis unit is NOT relentless. Relentless is a funcrtion of Jetpacks.

I am a Tau player so dont get me wrong. I'd love for the rules to be more expansive. They aren't.

So the only Drones that are relentless are those that, sadly, don't need to be.

Interestingly the only unit able to actually move after Deep striking are the Gun Drone units, specifically. That's another change they need to look into for Tau. While it is technically correct according to the Codex and FAQ (yes I read it) it is frustrating! Why the Gun Drone units? Why no others? grr.

Jancoran wrote:"Infantry(Jet Pack)" is not a unit type. Infantry is a type. Jumppack is a type.

Jetpack is wargear. Sadly. And only Shield drones take on the save and toughness of their parent.

What are you talking about, suits are all Jump Infantry(Jet Pack)(excluding broadsides of course).

As Jet Pack is not listed in war gear, and it listed in unit type, it is a unit type that has it's own unique rules otherwise it would be written like this

Unit Type: Jump Infantry

Wargear: etc... Jet Pack etc...

Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) certainly is a type, it's there in the Tau codex; the Unit Type of a Crisis Battlesuit is Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) therefore the Unit Type of attached Drones is Jump Infantry (Jet Pack).

Your argument that Jet Packs are wargear only, falls down when you notice that Crisis Suits do not have Jet Packs; they are instead listed as being Jump Infantry subject to the Jet Pack rules. If Jet Packs are indeed wargear as you say, then Crisis Suits do not have them and are therefore not subject to their rules.

Avatar 720, however the specific description for the Crisis Suit indicates that they must be stationary to fire heavy weapons (page 27 of the codex) so while the Crisis Suits are Relentless, they must still be stationary to fire their heavy weapons.

So Relentless, but not.

Jefffar wrote:Avatar 720, however the specific description for the Crisis Suit indicates that they must be stationary to fire heavy weapons (page 27 of the codex) so while the Crisis Suits are Relentless, they must still be stationary to fire their heavy weapons.

So Relentless, but not.

However, that XV8 special rule would not apply to the Jump Infantry(Jet Pack) drones that are attached to them correct?

It doesn't, however those markerlights cost 3x as much as the one the team leader can take.

Jefffar wrote:It doesn't, however those markerlights cost 3x as much as the one the team leader can take.

XV8 team leads do not have the option of taking Markerlights. you may be confused with Stealth Suits, which have no psuedo-relentless special rule in the codex.


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Jefffar wrote:... So Relentless, but not.

As XV8s have no option to take heavy weapons of any kind, therefore that line in the 'dex is somewhat superflous.

Jefffar wrote:Avatar 720, however the specific description for the Crisis Suit indicates that they must be stationary to fire heavy weapons (page 27 of the codex) so while the Crisis Suits are Relentless, they must still be stationary to fire their heavy weapons.

So Relentless, but not.

I was talking about the drones, not the suits.

Jade.Longinus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:It doesn't, however those markerlights cost 3x as much as the one the team leader can take.

XV8 team leads do not have the option of taking Markerlights. you may be confused with Stealth Suits, which have no psuedo-relentless special rule in the codex.


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Jefffar wrote:... So Relentless, but not.

As XV8s have no option to take heavy weapons of any kind, therefore that line in the 'dex is somewhat superflous.

My bad on the Team Lead one, however the XV8 variants from Forge World (which are tourney legal unless the tourney explicitly prohibts them) carry Markerlights or SMS.

Jefffar wrote:My bad on the Team Lead one, however the XV8 variants from Forge World (which are tourney legal unless the tourney explicitly prohibts them) carry Markerlights or SMS.

They are allowed in standard 40k tourneys? Not apocalypse? I'm new so I don't know but most official tourneys I've read about indicate that only Codex entries are allowed.

However, the Forge World non-Apocalypse only units are phrased as being Codex Entries. They aren't specifically in the physical codex book, but they are still considered Codex Entries by GW and FW.

Some Tourney Organizers just say "No Forgerworld" due to a reputation for overpowered or Apocalypse only items. As well as they are not common so players with a Forgeworld item may have the advantage of surprise over their more conventional opponents.

Jade.Longinus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:My bad on the Team Lead one, however the XV8 variants from Forge World (which are tourney legal unless the tourney explicitly prohibts them) carry Markerlights or SMS.

They are allowed in standard 40k tourneys? Not apocalypse? I'm new so I don't know but most official tourneys I've read about indicate that only Codex entries are allowed.

Not for most tournaments, which specify the printed codex and (usually) the nightspinner and Sisters PDF. Which excludes other published material, regardless of the IA rules.

XV8 team leads do not have the option of taking Markerlights. you may be confused with Stealth Suits, which have no psuedo-relentless special rule in the codex.

Being jump infantry, without the restriction placed on crisis suits by their description, XV25s CAN fire their markerlight while moving, and they can do any relentless things they feel like doing.

Also, ftr, drones do count as relentless when attached to crisis suit teams, but markerlight drones are still worthless pieces of crap.

Jancoran wrote:
Sniper Drones should be relentless.

they are. all jet pack troops are relentless as of 5th Ed.


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it seems someone beat me to this statement, thats what i get for not reading all the comments

Sniper Drone Teams are Unit Type: Infantry IIRC, so are not Relentless.

I stand corrected sniper drones are infact infantry