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Luusormi wrote:Damn. Necrons got really hard to kill and without the phase out...how ae you supposed to kill them???

Same as before, focus fire, take out one unit at a time. It gets really fun if you play Guard like I do.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Sorry. the EverLiving rules and FAQ seem to totally disagree with you.

Try again.

No they dont - well, not unless you totally make gak up that has no basis in rules.

Oh wait, I see what you did there. You DID make gak up that has no basis in rules!


Try again - some actual rules owuld be useful, anytime you feel like it

Already posted them try reading it some time.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

time wizard wrote:

Yad wrote:And EL doesn't care about being an IC. It only cares about models that have the EL property. Meaning as long as a model has EL it can potentially leave and join another unit (per the EL rules) at the end of any phase.

-Yad

Yes! Indeed! It can leave the unit and/or join another at the end of the phase.

Perfect!

And when does one roll for RP and EL? At the end of the phase.

And when does a sweeping advance occur? From page 40, if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately."

Let's repeat that so everyone gets it. "The destroyed unit is removed immediately."

Not at the end of the phase, not when they make their EL roll, but immediately!

So, the character with the EL rule is part of the unit, again as per the res orb FAQ, and if the unit is swept, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately.".

So at the end of the phase, there are no RP or El counters to roll for, they have already been removed when the unit was destroyed.

Except when the EL token was placed prior to the Sweep. In which case nothing removes the EL token.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Luusormi wrote:Damn. Necrons got really hard to kill and without the phase out...how ae you supposed to kill them???

Same as before, focus fire, take out one unit at a time. It gets really fun if you play Guard like I do.

Correct. That's the best way to do it.
In one game (old Necron codex) I managed to take out 7 warriors from 1 squad and all 10 from another squad. I just couldn't take out those last 3 warriors!
In my opponent's turn, all 17 models were within range to make a WBB roll, and he brought back 14 of the 17!
He now had a 17 strong unit of warriors that I had to try to take out all over again.
So he brought back 14 warriors. At 18 points each, he had just got an additional 252 points of models in his force!

Yad wrote:And EL doesn't care about being an IC. It only cares about models that have the EL property. Meaning as long as a model has EL it can potentially leave and join another unit (per the EL rules) at the end of any phase.

-Yad

You're going to have to cite something for that. The only way for a model to be eligible to join another unit is if it is an IC.
And ICs can only leave their unit at the end of their movement.

You could, however, come back from a counter with your 3" allowance putting you inside join range of a unit or two, which EL allows you to join.
There's no provision saying EL models leave units. In fact, there's other rulings that say they don't (res orb "his unit" - if you leave the unit when dead, there is no "his unit" and it doesn't say "his old unit")


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NecronLord3 wrote:Except when the EL token was placed prior to the Sweep. In which case nothing removes the EL token.

So you're saving the unit after SA has happened, when SA forbids saving the unit unless you have a specific exception?

time wizard wrote:

Yad wrote:And EL doesn't care about being an IC. It only cares about models that have the EL property. Meaning as long as a model has EL it can potentially leave and join another unit (per the EL rules) at the end of any phase.

-Yad

Yes! Indeed! It can leave the unit and/or join another at the end of the phase.

Perfect!

And when does one roll for RP and EL? At the end of the phase.

And when does a sweeping advance occur? From page 40, if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately."

Let's repeat that so everyone gets it. "The destroyed unit is removed immediately."

Not at the end of the phase, not when they make their EL roll, but immediately!

So, the character with the EL rule is part of the unit, again as per the res orb FAQ, and if the unit is swept, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately.".

So at the end of the phase, there are no RP or El counters to roll for, they have already been removed when the unit was destroyed.

Ok, now we need to know if EL lets you save from effects that aren't wound-based, which should answer the question entirely I think.

Do you get EL from JOTWW for example? How about void grenades in apocolypse? If you do then you theoretically should get it from sweeping advance as well as thats a remove model not tack on wound basis. If not then you the opposite, I would think.

As (I'm sure someone has) mentioned before, EL token are only placed when a model is removed from play as a casualty. JOTWW says you are "Removed From Play".

Apocalypse Vortex Grenade also says that you can not take any saves, and any special rule doesn't work. The model is removed from the game.

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're saving the unit after SA has happened, when SA forbids saving the unit unless you have a specific exception?

No I'm saying that SA advance has no effect on a model that has already been removed as a casualty by other means.

Which (as I originally stated) based on the FAQ and wording of EL is ambiguous. Personally I don't think that EL can be used if the unit was wiped by SA, regardless of when the model was "killed". If I play a Necron player and he feels differently, we will roll off. Of course, I think this whole thing got horribly off topic from the original post, which I was hoping to avoid.

If the unit is destroyed by Sweeping Advance, you may place EL counters. Here's the relevant FAQ.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170012a_Necron_FAQ_Version_2_0_January_2012.pdf

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)

A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

JasoX wrote:If the unit is destroyed by Sweeping Advance, you may place EL counters. Here's the relevant FAQ.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170012a_Necron_FAQ_Version_2_0_January_2012.pdf

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)

A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

And here's the relevant rule, main rules page 40, sweeping advances, "Unless otherwise specified, on save or other special rule can rescue the unit..."

Are RP and EL "special rules"? Page 29 Necron Codex heads with "Necron Special Rules".

Do either or these "special rules" say that the unit is not destroyed by a sweeping advance? No, they don't.

So after all these pages, we are right back where we started. Sheesh!

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're saving the unit after SA has happened, when SA forbids saving the unit unless you have a specific exception?

No I'm saying that SA advance has no effect on a model that has already been removed as a casualty by other means.

SA destroys the unit. Bringing a model from the unit back brings back the unit - we know this because you can't farm EL units for kill points.
So you're attempting to restore the unit from being destroyed. SA prevents that without specific exemption.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JasoX wrote:If the unit is destroyed by Sweeping Advance, you may place EL counters. Here's the relevant FAQ.

It'd be great if you'd read the thread. Thanks.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're saving the unit after SA has happened, when SA forbids saving the unit unless you have a specific exception?

No I'm saying that SA advance has no effect on a model that has already been removed as a casualty by other means.

SA destroys the unit. Bringing a model from the unit back brings back the unit - we know this because you can't farm EL units for kill points.
So you're attempting to restore the unit from being destroyed. SA prevents that without specific exemption.

And that applies not at all to IC. If you want to proceed with an argument along the lines that a Royal Court member can not resurrect because he is part of the unit and when the unit is removed it cannot resurrect, you might have a viable argument. However, since this issue is with Ever Living, and that rule is specifically designed to super cede the rules for RP, the argument is moot. You don't get your kill point from shooting until the EL model fails it's RP roll, the same goes for Sweeping and assault. Nothing inconsistent.

rigeld2 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

JasoX wrote:If the unit is destroyed by Sweeping Advance, you may place EL counters. Here's the relevant FAQ.

It'd be great if you'd read the thread. Thanks.

Back the feth up dude. Do you have any idea how many times I could say the same thing to you. Don't jump down someone else's throat who is trying to participate in this forum just because they aren't part of your little NOS clik.

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:And EL doesn't care about being an IC. It only cares about models that have the EL property. Meaning as long as a model has EL it can potentially leave and join another unit (per the EL rules) at the end of any phase.

-Yad

You're going to have to cite something for that. The only way for a model to be eligible to join another unit is if it is an IC.

Easy enough, the entire EL rules section. There is absolutely nothing in the EL rules to suggest that they only pertain to IC's. I would look at the paragraph that describes how to place EL models that succeed on their roll. You should see that it follows how I broke it out in my previous post. Any model that has the EL property (regardless of the type of model (IC vs. non-IC) must follow all the rules for EL. This means, given the right conditions, that such a model could leave and join a different unit at the end of the Movement/Shooting/Assault phase. Whichever one the player is making the roll for.

rigeld2 wrote:And ICs can only leave their unit at the end of their movement.

In general, yes absolutely. Per the EL rules, not so much.

rigeld2 wrote:You could, however, come back from a counter with your 3" allowance putting you inside join range of a unit or two, which EL allows you to join.
There's no provision saying EL models leave units. In fact, there's other rulings that say they don't (res orb "his unit" - if you leave the unit when dead, there is no "his unit" and it doesn't say "his old unit")

This is where I think you're stumbling a bit on the reading of the EL placement rules. The option to choose which unit to join upon a successful EL roll is not dependent upon the EL model being a unit of 1. The coherency requirement is satisfied in either placement scenario. All EL cares about is that when you return the EL model to play is::

Can the EL model be returned to play in coherency of the unit that it was previously attached to and at least 1'' away from an enemy model?

or

Can the EL model be returned to play within 3'' of the marker and at last 1'' away from an enemy model (if the EL model was not attached to a unit when it was killed).

In either case if the model is placed within coherency of one or more friendly units, you now have a choice as to which unit you want the EL model to join. This is an exception to the normal requirement of leaving/joining units only in the Movement phase (for IC's). There's no reason that, in the second option you can't return the EL model to play in coherency with a friendly unit. There's nothing in the EL rules or the BRB that would prevent this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NecronLord3 wrote:Except when the EL token was placed prior to the Sweep. In which case nothing removes the EL token.

So you're saving the unit after SA has happened, when SA forbids saving the unit unless you have a specific exception?

NecronLord3 wrote:And that applies not at all to IC. If you want to proceed with an argument along the lines that a Royal Court member can not resurrect because he is part of the unit and when the unit is removed it cannot resurrect, you might have a viable argument. However, since this issue is with Ever Living, and that rule is specifically designed to super cede the rules for RP, the argument is moot. You don't get your kill point from shooting until the EL model fails it's RP roll, the same goes for Sweeping and assault. Nothing inconsistent.

ICs are not the only model type that have EL. The IC is part of the unit when it goes down, so it suffers along with the rest of the unit. It's a normal member of the unit, per the rules for ICs.

And KPs aren't awarded when the unit is destroyed, they're awarded at the end of a match for every destroyed unit. Note the difference.

Back the feth up dude. Do you have any idea how many times I could say the same thing to you. Don't jump down someone else's throat who is trying to participate in this forum just because they aren't part of your little NOS clik.

I didn't? If I was "jumping down his throat" I'd have been far less polite. And I'm sorry if you're feeling persecuted, but there's no "clik" (I think you mean clique). nos and I disagree on as many things as we agree on it seems like.

Yad wrote:
EL is not a save. You're conflating the concept of 'saving' with the game mechanic of Save. The SA rule expressly forbids the use of a Save.

-Yad

Partially correct, SA expressly forbids the use of a save or other special rule unless otherwise specified.

Yad wrote: This means, given the right conditions, that such a model could leave and join a different unit at the end of the Movement/Shooting/Assault phase.

The EL model has to be eligible to join another unit, per the EL rules. Guess what the only type of EL model is eligible to join different units is?

This is where I think you're stumbling a bit on the reading of the EL placement rules. The option to choose which unit to join upon a successful EL roll is not dependent upon the EL model being a unit of 1. The coherency requirement is satisfied in either placement scenario. All EL cares about is that when you return the EL model to play is::

Can the EL model be returned to play in coherency of the unit that it was previously attached to and at least 1'' away from an enemy model?

or

Can the EL model be returned to play within 3'' of the marker and at last 1'' away from an enemy model (if the EL model was not attached to a unit when it was killed).

In either case if the model is placed within coherency of one or more friendly units, you now have a choice as to which unit you want the EL model to join. This is an exception to the normal requirement of leaving/joining units only in the Movement phase (for IC's). There's no reason that, in the second option you can't return the EL model to play in coherency with a friendly unit. There's nothing in the EL rules or the BRB that would prevent this.

I feel that this is a big enough issue to warrant it's own thread. Mind starting one?

Yad wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Except when the EL token was placed prior to the Sweep. In which case nothing removes the EL token.

So you're saving the unit after SA has happened, when SA forbids saving the unit unless you have a specific exception?

EL is not a save. You're conflating the concept of 'saving' with the game mechanic of Save. The SA rule expressly forbids the use of a Save.

-Yad

No - SA denies saves and special abilities from rescuing the unit - I used the word save above meaning rescue (which I should not have done) and you read it as "save" like invulnerable save. I wasn't conflating anything, it was a miscommunication.

time wizard wrote:

JasoX wrote:If the unit is destroyed by Sweeping Advance, you may place EL counters. Here's the relevant FAQ.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170012a_Necron_FAQ_Version_2_0_January_2012.pdf

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)

A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

And here's the relevant rule, main rules page 40, sweeping advances, "Unless otherwise specified, on save or other special rule can rescue the unit..."

Are RP and EL "special rules"? Page 29 Necron Codex heads with "Necron Special Rules".

Do either or these "special rules" say that the unit is not destroyed by a sweeping advance? No, they don't.

So after all these pages, we are right back where we started. Sheesh!

This is why I think your understanding of timing should decide which side you agree with.

If SA is an action the winning unit does "immediately" as it the rule states, and the FAQ was intended to answer this very question then:
1) SA does not prevent placing a counter
2) SA kills the unit and its effect ends (nothing is preventing this or saving the unit). Nothing is rescuing the EL model during Sweeping Advance.
3) EL may bring the model back at the end of the phase since SA ended before consolidation or at the end of combat. (you may still prevent EL by having a unit standing near the counter)

A) the changes to WBB to RP and EL to use counters instead of the model remaining in play
B) the codex gives EL to characters with a special rule (not all models) limiting its power
C) FAQ so simply states EL rolls are allowed
D) the SA rule says "immediately" and "at this stage" showing it is a time limited action
E) SA happens before consolidation meaning it also ends
F) SA does not remove EL counters
G) there is no separate BRB sections for RFP and RPFaaC sections - only RFPaaC and Instant Death (as a casualty). There is no RFP rule in the BRB.
H) Celestine has a similar rule, and is allowed.

In my opinion, if you lift a model of the table top, it is now a 'casualty' (regardless if it is a casualty at the center of the earth [JotWW] or a casualty in several pieces in a crater [demolisher cannon]). Therein, you get to place the counters, unless the original unit (ie no characters that joined it) is destroyed, then there is no RP counters, only EL counters.

As far as Instant Death is concerned, Necrons don't give a feth any more.

As far as SA is concerned, I would say place a EL counter. I have played that way all along, and no-one at my flgs has cared

time wizard wrote:

Yad wrote:
EL is not a save. You're conflating the concept of 'saving' with the game mechanic of Save. The SA rule expressly forbids the use of a Save.

-Yad

Partially correct, SA expressly forbids the use of a save or other special rule unless otherwise specified.

Which is what NL and ND keep failing utterly on. They cannot find a single rule which says ANY EL model leaves the unit before EL rolls are made, meaning they are still a member of the unit - as per the FAQs - and are thus destroyed.

ND has an interesting timing theory, which also has no rules basis and also falls apart when you consider that WBB, which worked at a LATER stage than RP / EL, never worked against SA - so trying to bring in that SA removes models "now" and doesnt prohibit saving later is a terrible argument, as it ignores both the rules for SA AND ignores the past.

NL - just gve up, you are sounding REALLY paranoid now. Oh, and as was pointed out - "clique". Please try to at least use the correct words when you are feeling ganged up on - you arent, it's just you're wrong in soooo many threads.

Nemesor Dave wrote:H) Celestine has a similar rule, and is allowed.

As clarified by the SoB FAQ, which is not the Necron FAQ. And seeing how GW answers often go by fluff instead of RAW this might well be the only "return to life" power that will ever do that - she won't stay down until the Emperor himself calls her. Yarrick's strength of will does nothing, a Necron Overlord's repair systems don't help. Or even if they do, he probably uses them to get his personal teleporter online first so he can get the hell out while there's any getting out.

Spetulhu wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:H) Celestine has a similar rule, and is allowed.

As clarified by the SoB FAQ, which is not the Necron FAQ. And seeing how GW answers often go by fluff instead of RAW this might well be the only "return to life" power that will ever do that - she won't stay down until the Emperor himself calls her. Yarrick's strength of will does nothing, a Necron Overlord's repair systems don't help. Or even if they do, he probably uses them to get his personal teleporter online first so he can get the hell out while there's any getting out.

I agree, its not black and white, but one more link to add weight to the decision.
In the Space Wolf FAQ they are treated the same:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170015a_Space_Wolves_FAQ_Version_1_2_January_2012.pdf
Q. Are models with an ability to return to play (e.g.
Necrons, St. Celestine, etc) able to use their special rule
even after being removed from play by The Last
Laugh? (p52)
A. Yes they can. It sounds odd but their special rule
works just fine.

Nemesor Dave wrote:I agree, its not black and white, but one more link to add weight to the decision.
In the Space Wolf FAQ they are treated the same:

Q. Are models with an ability to return to play (e.g.
Necrons, St. Celestine, etc) able to use their special rule
even after being removed from play by The Last
Laugh? (p52)
A. Yes they can. It sounds odd but their special rule
works just fine.

That does add a bit, but then The Last Laugh lacks any "no special rule can save them at this stage" part.

And I do repeat my earlier thoughts on GW and timing - that "at this stage" isn't a point in time, it's the fact you've been swept. Once it's happened nothing can help. Until it's put in a FAQ I'll personally be happy to agree on it either way before a game (if I have a similarly "grey" special rule in my army) or just roll off when it comes up.

Spetulhu signing out, nothing more worthwhile to add I'd say.

The whole argument rest s on ingnorance of the meaning of the word "rescue".
Rescue, by definition, means avoiding harm and evading it. Thus, if suffering of harm was not prevented, no rescue occured.
Everliving rule does not allow models or units for that matter to avoid being removed as casualties - or, in case of units, destroyed. Thus Everliving never rescues anything.
Thus all that talk about sweeping advance having any relevance to everliving is gibberish.

Furthermore, the cases when Everliving and Resurrection Protocol tokens are removed from play are clearly defined. Adding any cases to them is a rule violation.

time wizard wrote:

Yad wrote:
EL is not a save. You're conflating the concept of 'saving' with the game mechanic of Save. The SA rule expressly forbids the use of a Save.

-Yad

Partially correct, SA expressly forbids the use of a save or other special rule unless otherwise specified.

I was simply pointing and correcting the use of the term save. There have been times, when this particular topic comes up, that folks focus on the 'save' bit of the SA rules as an attempt to deny EL. I am fully aware of the remainder of the SA rule. As stated previously, I do not believe that EL can be used as a response to a SA. The SA rules forbid this. It can however be used after the SA has been resolved. Because it has no association with SA there is no 'rescue'. EL is never used to stop a model from being removed from play.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

time wizard wrote:

Yad wrote:
EL is not a save. You're conflating the concept of 'saving' with the game mechanic of Save. The SA rule expressly forbids the use of a Save.

-Yad

Partially correct, SA expressly forbids the use of a save or other special rule unless otherwise specified.

I was simply pointing and correcting the use of the term save. There have been times, when this particular topic comes up, that folks focus on the 'save' bit of the SA rules as an attempt to deny EL. I am fully aware of the remainder of the SA rule. As stated previously, I do not believe that EL can be used as a response to a SA. The SA rules forbid this. It can however be used after the SA has been resolved. Because it has no association with SA there is no 'rescue'. EL is never used to stop a model from being removed from play.

-Yad

SA destroyed the unit. You're asserting that returning the unit to the board is not rescuing the unit?

It's a matter of timing.

While an IC (killed before the sweep) is attached to a unit that's been swept he can't be returned to the board.

The only time a IC can leave the unit is 1). during the movement phase OR 2). after they've made an EL roll and returned to the board. Being dead isn't enough to leave the unit.

Now he can't do 1). as being dead stops this right away.
Nor can he do 2). as the sweep prevents him from making a EL roll as he's still attached to the swept unit.

Yad - so, when you rescue the unit you are using a special rule which does not allow you to rescue the unit from Sweeping Advance

WHich is against the rules of SA.

Again - this timing theory not only has no basis in the rules, it entirely ignores that WBB, which worked even later than EL / RP does, never worked. Ever.

ALso Yad - SA removes the unit. The whole of it. That includes any EL counters, as has been proven many times.

Your belief has no basis in fact

rigeld2 wrote:
SA destroyed the unit. You're asserting that returning the unit to the board is not rescuing the unit?

The SA rule does not suggest that it continues indefinitely. SA happens "immediately" and is a step in combat before consolidation.

If you ask yourself what steps are taken in combat:
1) Determine Assault Results
2) Loser checks morale
3) If the loser is falling back, the attacker does a Sweeping Advance
4) the attacker consolidates
5) End of combat
6) All combats resolved
7) End of Phase (when EL rolls are made)

#3 here is Sweeping Advance
Do you think the SA rule means "you may never rescue or save"? Wouldn't it say that?

8) Beginning of next turn, when WBB occcured - yet WBB never worked

What makes you think EL works?


We can do without the digs thanks. Further such comments will result in an extended "easter holiday" . Reds8n

The premise of not allowing EL rolls after SA is based on the term "rescue".

Where is "rescue" defined in the rules? (It isn't, we all know that)

Now, it just becomes an argument of interpretation of the word "rescue" since we have no definition.

It is entirely feasible that the word "rescue" COULD mean, not allowing the return of the models even though the situation has already occurred. It does seem pretty logical that if the unit died but is resurrected, it got "rescued".

It is also entirely feasible that the term "rescue" can be interpreted that it must occur before the situation concludes itself.

The dictionary more agrees with this second scenario. Logically, to rescue someone from a situation, you must do so before the situation concludes. (I.e. to "rescue" you from a lion, I must do so before the lion eats you)

Logically, to "rescue" a unit from a sweeping advance, you must do so before the effects of the sweeping advance wipes them out.

So, is EL a "rescue" attempt or is it more akin to a "resurrection" attempt? I believe the dictionary clearly supports one interpretation over another.

(I.e. I couldn't rescue you from the lion, it ate you. However, later on, I did resurrect you. You still got eaten but through other means you are alive again.)

Dave's timing argument makes perfect sense. Not to mention, it is supported by the use of "at this stage" which is clearly written.

The argument about a unit having been rescued because it resurrects at a later date also makes sense.

However, I believe the timing argument, lacking any definition of the term rescue, is the stronger argument because it more closely fits the dictionary definition of the word. The reason is that trying to make the word "rescue" apply after the situation has already occurred is STRETCHING the definition of the word rescue considerably. The timing argument makes no such stretch.