Necrons instant death?

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**copper.talos**

That's fluffy. It makes SA no more valid against EL than the tessaracts description "...or be trapped within the tessaract labyrinth forever.".

**Saldiven**

nosferatu1001 wrote:"for them the battle is over"

You bringing the models back removes this from being true, so you have STILL broken a rule.

That's kind of what I'm getting at. Sweeping Advance causes and ongoing effect that a unit that is swept no longer gets to participate in the "battle." It doesn't matter if models became RP/EL markers before SA triggered. EL/RP simply do not have the specific exemption required by the rules for any part of that unit to further participate in the battle.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:That's fluffy. It makes SA no more valid against EL than the tessaracts description "...or be trapped within the tessaract labyrinth forever.".

I somewhat disagree. There is a clear, in-game meaning to "for them, the battle is over."

**copper.talos**

Both are definite statements that the target is dead and gone. Yet you can come back from a tessaract labyrinth. So such statements as "the battle is over", "trapped forever" etc have no weight ruleswise.

**Saldiven**

copper.talos wrote:Both are definite statements that the target is dead and gone. Yet you can come back from a tessaract labyrinth. So such statements as "the battle is over", "trapped forever" etc have no weight ruleswise.

They do when combined with the rule that states that no special rule can save the unit unless otherwise specified.

Please show a rule that specifically allows EL or RP to ignore being removed from the game by Sweeping Advance.

**Brother Ramses**

Saldiven wrote:
copper.talos wrote:Both are definite statements that the target is dead and gone. Yet you can come back from a tessaract labyrinth. So such statements as "the battle is over", "trapped forever" etc have no weight ruleswise.

They do when combined with the rule that states that no special rule can save the unit unless otherwise specified.

Please show a rule that specifically allows EL or RP to ignore being removed from the game by Sweeping Advance.

No matter how many people post this request, it will be denied that many times by the people arguing against you Saldiven.

**Survivor19**

Please show a rule that specifically allows EL or RP to ignore being removed from the game by Sweeping Advance.

It seems you missed several words here
If your question is:

Please show a rule that specifically allows models with EL or RP to return into play via those respective rules after being removed from the game by Sweeping Advance

Then the answer would be: there is no such rule. Models removed via sweeping advance will not get the chance of returning into play - no EL counters will be laid.
If you mean:

Please show a rule that specifically allows EL or RP counters to ignore being removed from the game by Sweeping Advance.

Then the answer would be: RP counters are removed before sweeping advances are made; EL counters are not subject to sweeping advance due to not being part of the unit.

**Nemesor Dave**

time wizard wrote:
Nemesor Dave wrote: This is why I ask:

Does Consolidation happen after Sweeping Advance, or at the same time?

Main rulebook, page 33, 'Assault Phase Summary', '3 Resolve Combats', 5th bullet point, second sentence, "Units falling back from close combat must test to see if they successfully break off, if they fail they are destroyed. The winners may then consolidate their position."

Nemesor Dave wrote:When does the Sweeping Advance action done by the winning unit end?

"The destroyed unit is removed immediatley." After that, the sweeping advance action has certainly ended.

This is my understanding too. The winner does the Sweeping Advance - chops the loser into mince, and then Consolidates - regrouping into position to continue the fight. After this consolidation move, abilities like Celestine and EL necrons may resurrect or reanimate.

An important point here is the other part of EL. If the winning units models are all over the spot where the EL necron tries to come back - they're going to kick him in the face. Preventing reanimation.

**grendel083**

Survivor19 wrote:Then the answer would be: RP counters are removed before sweeping advances are made; EL counters are not subject to sweeping advance due to not being part of the unit.

The counters are not part of the unit. The model they are associated with however is. And there lies the problem. Do what you like with the counter, but SA prevents the model returning.

**NecronLord3**

Would someone please cite a reference to the rules for Wipeout in the BRB?

**time wizard**

NecronLord3 wrote:Would someone please cite a reference to the rules for Wipeout in the BRB?

Sure, page 90, right column, top of column, "Wipeout!" which says if your enemy has not units on the table at the end of the game you win regardless of victory conditions.

Not sure what this has to do with sweeping advance though.

**NecronLord3**

time wizard wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:Would someone please cite a reference to the rules for Wipeout in the BRB?

Sure, page 90, right column, top of column, "Wipeout!" which says if your enemy has not units on the table at the end of the game you win regardless of victory conditions.

Not sure what this has to do with sweeping advance though.

Next, find cite the rules for units "wiped out".

**nosferatu1001**

Or, you quit playing silly games with posters and formulate an argument that holds up under scrutiny for more than 2 seconds?

We'll wait.

**Brother Ramses**

Define, "flannigam mudkip!

Yea, stupid games attempts at word game semantics when the rules should be discussed ought to be one of the tenets here.

The easiest request of specified permission to ignore SA continues to be ignored while EL counters before sweeping advance has devolved into stupid word games while the rules are being ignored.

**Voodoo_Chile**

If I can try and get away from the Sweeping Advance issue for a sec:

If a squad of Necrons with an attached Cryptek(for instance) are entirely wiped out in close combat, as in they take more unsaved wounds then they have wounds to take, the Ever Living counter remains correct? There isn't an inherent Sweeping Advance in a total massacre right?

**angelshade00**

Voodoo_Chile wrote:If I can try and get away from the Sweeping Advance issue for a sec:

If a squad of Necrons with an attached Cryptek(for instance) are entirely wiped out in close combat, as in they take more unsaved wounds then they have wounds to take, the Ever Living counter remains correct? There isn't an inherent Sweeping Advance in a total massacre right?

Interesting question. Lets see how this fans the flames of war...

**rigeld2**

Correct. An EL model can get up fine after that, provided his opponent doesn't cover his potential stand up range.

**time wizard**

rigeld2 wrote:Correct. An EL model can get up fine after that, provided his opponent doesn't cover his potential stand up range.

And provided he makes his EL roll.

**Voodoo_Chile**

angelshade00 wrote:
Voodoo_Chile wrote:If I can try and get away from the Sweeping Advance issue for a sec:

If a squad of Necrons with an attached Cryptek(for instance) are entirely wiped out in close combat, as in they take more unsaved wounds then they have wounds to take, the Ever Living counter remains correct? There isn't an inherent Sweeping Advance in a total massacre right?

Interesting question. Lets see how this fans the flames of war...

Heh, honestly it was not my intent. Just had a thought that it is actually better to be massacred then to survive and fail a morale test. Smaller warrior squads for your Crypteks better in the long run?
(As opposed to blobs or Immortals, as Warriors have a higher chance of dying and if you'll be swept anyway...)

rigeld2 wrote:Correct. An EL model can get up fine after that, provided his opponent doesn't cover his potential stand up range.

Ah thanks for that.

**nosferatu1001**

It has always been better for Necrons to be entirely wiped out IN combat, than to risk sweeping advance.

**Exalted Pariah**

Yes, infact I believe Jy2 even suggests that a necron player have the cryptek or lord, take the first hit in melee so that if it dies and the unit is swept/killed/ROFL-stomped, the cyrptek/lord can still get back up and score/attack/save the KP

**Basimpo**

PG 40 of the BRB says

If the winner's total is equal or greater they catch the fleeing enemy with a sweeping advance. The falling back unit is destroyed. We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart, or sent packing, its members left either dead, wounded and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding. The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

There is no relevant errata or FAQs covering this in the rulebook section of FAQs.

I want to emphasize the last sentence in this quote, just like everyone else has previously.

The relevant special rule from page 29 of the necron codex is

reanimation protocols.
If a model with the reanimation protocols rule is removed as a casualty, there is a chance that it will self-repair and return to play at the end of the current phase. Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken. If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it - any damaged necrons are left behind and self-destruct rather than risk capture by the enemy.

At the end of the phase, after any morale checks have been taken and fall back moves have been made, roll a d6 for each reanimation protocols counter next to the unit. On a 1,2,3 or 4 the damage is too severe and no self-repair occurs - nothing happens. On a 5 or 6, a Necron reassembles itself and continues to fight - returnone of the slain models to play with a single wound, placed in coherency with a model from its unit that has not itself returned through reanimation protocols the phase. Models returning to play in this fashion must be placed at least 1" from enemy models. If the model's unit is engaged in close combat, the model immediately piles in. Models that cannot be placed this way do not return.

Reanimation protocols rolls cannot be attempted if the unit has been destroyed - once the last model has been removed as a casualty, remove all your counters. Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of reanimation protocols - if a character is the only survivor of a unit, his presence is not sufficient to allow a reanimation protocols roll, so remove any remaining counters. Once all reanimation protocols rolls have been made for a unit (passed or failed) remove all your counters from the unit.

Ever-living
If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a reanimation protocols counter to its unit. Instead, place an ever-living counter where the model was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a reanimation protocols counter.

If the model has joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be reutned to play, with a single wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in reanimation protocols. If the model had not joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, within 3" of the counter. In either case, the model must be placed at least 1" away from enemy models. If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units (your choice). If the model was locked in close combat when it 'died', and the combat is ongoing, then it must immediately pile in. If the returning model cannot be placed, for whatever reason, it is lost and does not return. If the roll was failed, remove the counter from play.

The relevant FAQ/errata is

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

To me this is definitive of answering the question of SA vs EL.

But, there is another FAQ/errata rulebook type from GW that might shed further light on this subject

Q: When two special rules or effects contradict each
other how is this resolved? (p2)
A: Roll off using ‘The Most Important Rule!’.

**rigeld2**

Citing TMIR means nothing in YMDC.
And your relevant errata isn't.

**Basimpo**

rigeld2 wrote:Citing TMIR means nothing in YMDC.
And your relevant errata isn't.

There is no errata, i just added the /errata part for effect. Furthermore, the FAQ I quoted from GW about necrons is relevant.

**rigeld2**

I'm sorry - how does "wiped out" have anything to do with SA?
And furthermore, how does EL specify it comes back from SA?

**Basimpo**

How does SA specify that you cannot use EL?
Where does it say in SA that counters that are not part of the unit are also removed?
EL gives exactly the conditions it cannot come back under.

**rigeld2**

Basimpo wrote:How does SA specify that you cannot use EL?
Where does it say in SA that counters that are not part of the unit are also removed?
EL gives exactly the conditions it cannot come back under.

SA says you can't use any save or special ability to rescue the unit.
The counters stay. But you may not place a model back on the table to rescue the unit - SA forbids it unless specified.
EL doesn't specify every condition - that's not possible.

**NecronLord3**

ELcounters are placed on the table top. RP tokens are placed against the unit. Distinctly different and totally permissinble to allow EL to survive after being wiped out. Wiped out in every since of the word. SA, killed to a man, or otherwise. Per RAW and the FAQ.

**rigeld2**

NecronLord3 wrote:ELcounters are placed on the table top. RP tokens are placed against the unit. Distinctly different and totally permissinble to allow EL to survive after being wiped out. Wiped out in every since of the word. SA, killed to a man, or otherwise. Per RAW and the FAQ.

In general, that's right - EL models can always come back.
Oh look, we have a specific rule in Sweeping Advance...
It says that you must explicitly specify to use a rule to rescue a unit.
Does EL explicitly specify?

**Basimpo**

rigeld2 wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:ELcounters are placed on the table top. RP tokens are placed against the unit. Distinctly different and totally permissinble to allow EL to survive after being wiped out. Wiped out in every since of the word. SA, killed to a man, or otherwise. Per RAW and the FAQ.

In general, that's right - EL models can always come back.
Oh look, we have a specific rule in Sweeping Advance...
It says that you must explicitly specify to use a rule to rescue a unit.
Does EL explicitly specify?

Yes.

Reanimation protocols rolls cannot be attempted if the unit has been destroyed - once the last model has been removed as a casualty, remove all your counters. Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of reanimation protocols - if a character is the only survivor of a unit, his presence is not sufficient to allow a reanimation protocols roll, so remove any remaining counters. Once all reanimation protocols rolls have been made for a unit (passed or failed) remove all your counters from the unit.

EL follows RA

If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a reanimation protocols counter to its unit. Instead, place an ever-living counter where the model was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a reanimation protocols counter.

**rigeld2**

I don't see Sweeping Advance mentioned - which is what Sweeping Advance requires.