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rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Of course a FAQ like Celestines one way or another would solve this.

Do you know of any other place that "at this stage" is used?

In 40k's rules, no - I don't think so.
In common English - http://idioms.yourdictionary.com/at-this-stage

There are a couple different ways "at this stage" is defined in your link. It could mean the SA step, or the Assault Phase. I see what you're saying and it could be read either way.

ND - but your entire argument is betrayed by the fact WBB never worked - and it saved the unit even later, the next Necron turn.

You are trying to save the unit. You have to break a rule, SA, to do so.

You are *still* wrong. Shock.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Of course a FAQ like Celestines one way or another would solve this.
Do you know of any other place that "at this stage" is used?

In 40k's rules, no - I don't think so.
In common English - http://idioms.yourdictionary.com/at-this-stage

There are a couple different ways "at this stage" is defined in your link. It could mean the SA step, or the Assault Phase. I see what you're saying and it could be read either way.

I disagree - the context of SA makes it read similar to "I'm not sure if you can help at this stage, but perhaps you can pitch in later."
Perhaps you can save the unit later - but you need explicit permission to do so. EL does not provide explicit permission.

time wizard wrote:

copper.talos wrote:Orb has the wording and a faq to make it work for an IC and his unit. And that is because it affects how the RP and EL rules resolve.

Right here you found the key to the lock.

Orb works for an IC and his unit. So even though the IC is nothing more than a counter on the board, it is still part of the unit.

If it is part of the unit for the res orb, then it is part of the unit for SA.

And SA.....destroys.....the.....unit.

EL specifically states that if the unit is destroyed, the model with EL may come back within 3" of the token. The FAQ supports this. At the end of the phase, the EL model has left the unit which invalidates your assertion.

The reason is because res orb is wargear that works while the model is dead and has it's own exceptions so unfortunately can't be used to clear this up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Of course a FAQ like Celestines one way or another would solve this.
Do you know of any other place that "at this stage" is used?

In 40k's rules, no - I don't think so.
In common English - http://idioms.yourdictionary.com/at-this-stage

There are a couple different ways "at this stage" is defined in your link. It could mean the SA step, or the Assault Phase. I see what you're saying and it could be read either way.

I disagree - the context of SA makes it read similar to "I'm not sure if you can help at this stage, but perhaps you can pitch in later."
Perhaps you can save the unit later - but you need explicit permission to do so. EL does not provide explicit permission.

For a unit to survive SA and stay in combat "at this stage" it must be like this:
1) SA - you may not help now.
2) ATSKNF - you may help now.

EL - if you take stage to mean at this step:

1) SA - you may not help now.
2) EL - you may help later.

There is no contradiction so explicit permission is not required.
This of course relies on you understanding "at this stage" to mean for the duration of SA and not for the whole phase.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
EL specifically states that if the unit is destroyed, the model with EL may come back within 3" of the token. The FAQ supports this. At the end of the phase, the EL model has left the unit which invalidates your assertion.

The reason is because res orb is wargear that works while the model is dead and has it's own exceptions so unfortunately can't be used to clear this up.

IC cannot leave a unit during the assault phase. Being dead is no excuse.

Edit: this also explains why the Orb works, he's still part of the unit.

ND making rules up wrote:
At the end of the phase, the EL model has left the unit which invalidates your assertion.

The IC or otherwise has no permission to leave the unit until the movement phase, not assault. Your assertion is still invalid, as you are back to making up rules again.

Try again.

grendel083 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
EL specifically states that if the unit is destroyed, the model with EL may come back within 3" of the token. The FAQ supports this. At the end of the phase, the EL model has left the unit which invalidates your assertion.

The reason is because res orb is wargear that works while the model is dead and has it's own exceptions so unfortunately can't be used to clear this up.

IC cannot leave a unit during the assault phase. Being dead is no excuse.

Edit: this also explains why the Orb works, he's still part of the unit.

The necron codex disagrees completely. EL states if the model with EL comes back within coherency with two units you may choose which one to join. In other words, it can leave the unit it was part of and join another unit. Unless of course you take the third option and claim it can be part of two units at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From necron codex p29 under EL "If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units (your choice)."

The idea that a IC may never leave a unit unless in its movement phase is proven false by this. Note, this can also happen in the shooting phase.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
The necron codex disagrees completely. EL states if the model with EL comes back within coherency with two units you may choose which one to join. In other words, it can leave the unit it was part of and join another unit. Unless of course you take the third option and claim it can be part of two units at the same time.

A good point, but that implies that at the point of returning it can leave/join units. Until it returns you don't get the option.

If it can't return, it can't choose to join/leave units.

Edit for clarity

I always took '...at this stage' in the SA rules to mean anytime after a SA was performed. Not a specific instance in time. I think that is a correct reading of the SA rules.

Given that the unit is destroyed by SA, nothing can reconstitute that unit.

Given that the IC is still attached to the unit via the EL token, returning the EL token returns the unit (violating the SA prohibition).

There are really only 2 ways to break down this line of reasoning. The first is the EL token is not a part of the unit, the second is that 'stage' in the SA rules refers only to the exact moment you pickup your unit and make a sad face.

I do not think either of these points can be shown explicitly in the rules.

Arguing the first point (EL token is not part of the unit) would necessitate giving up a KP when the unit is destroyed and every single time an EL character is swept.

Arguing the second point has more potential, but is a specific reading of the SA rule that attributes timing parameters to the game that are not generally applied in the rules. It is, overall, a much weaker argument than the one suggesting (even through the fluff narrative) that a Swept unit cannot function as a cohesive fighting body for the remainder of the game.

Nemesor Dave wrote: For a unit to survive SA and stay in combat "at this stage" it must be like this:
1) SA - you may not help now.
2) ATSKNF - you may help now.

SA - You are destroyed now, but might come back later if you're allowed to.
ATSKNF - loljk - we aren't running, we want to keep stabbing.

ATSKNF completely overrides the SA rule. There is no "at this stage" because if they lose the initiative roll off, ATSKNF skips the entire thing and just applies No Retreat saves.

EL - if you take stage to mean at this step:

Yes - but based on how the sentence is phrased, that's not the way to take it.

This of course relies on you understanding "at this stage" to mean for the duration of SA and not for the whole phase.

If by "phase" you mean "ever" that's exactly what it does mean.

rigeld2 wrote:ATSKNF completely overrides the SA rule.

Yes, it does. Which is another good point.

It overrides SA because it specificaly says that if the marines are caught in a sweeping advance they are not destroyed.

Nowhere in RP or EL do you find the words "sweeping advance" so there is no specific override, so the unit is destroyed.

The entire unit including attached characters. They are still part of the unit, as evedenced the the res orb FAQ.

When GW has anything to say about time or phases they usually say so - immediately, at the start of, in this X phase and so on. IMO the "at this stage" in the SA rule refers to the fact that you've been swept, not when it happened.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

ND making rules up wrote:
At the end of the phase, the EL model has left the unit which invalidates your assertion.

The IC or otherwise has no permission to leave the unit until the movement phase, not assault. Your assertion is still invalid, as you are back to making up rules again.

Try again.

Sorry. the EverLiving rules and FAQ seem to totally disagree with you.

Try again.

NecronLord3 wrote:Sorry. the EverLiving rules and FAQ seem to totally disagree with you.

Um, no - they don't.
Nothing in the Ever Living rules or FAQ says that the model leaves the unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Sorry. the EverLiving rules and FAQ seem to totally disagree with you.

Um, no - they don't.
Nothing in the Ever Living rules or FAQ says that the model leaves the unit.

Don't agree.


If the EL roll is passed and the model is placed within coherency of one or more friendly units you get to choose which unit the model joins. Because you can roll for EL at the end of every phase it is possible that an EL model can join a different unit at the end of any phase (given the right conditions). So if there are two units within range (Units A and B) and the EL model originally was part of unit A, when you return the model you could choose to have it join unit B. By necessity you would have to leave unit A. You can't be a member of both units.

-Yad

My reading of that part of the rule is for IC's who are not part of a unit. So in your example, the IC is not eligible to join Unit B as it is a part of Unit A. If the IC was not a member of Unit A or B, then he could join either one.

NecronLord3 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

ND making rules up wrote:
At the end of the phase, the EL model has left the unit which invalidates your assertion.

The IC or otherwise has no permission to leave the unit until the movement phase, not assault. Your assertion is still invalid, as you are back to making up rules again.

Try again.

Sorry. the EverLiving rules and FAQ seem to totally disagree with you.

Try again.

Ever Living allows an IC to join a different squad (in effect leave the old one) when returning to play. But this is when it returns to play. If it can't be returned it can't leave the squad.

If it's part of a squad that's been swept it can't return.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Sorry. the EverLiving rules and FAQ seem to totally disagree with you.

Um, no - they don't.
Nothing in the Ever Living rules or FAQ says that the model leaves the unit.

Except the fact that the EverLiving rules do not work EVER if it is a part of the unit for Royal Court Members. And the FAQ.

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

Ever Living:

If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, the and roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, in coherency...
...If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join...

Hmm whats this? Placed in coherency. eligible to join. How is an EL unit eligible to join a unit, if already attached to one.

That's right. It's not attached to a unit when it is removed as a casualty.

NecronLord3 wrote:
Sorry. the EverLiving rules and FAQ seem to totally disagree with you.

Try again.

Like this FAQ?

Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes.

...his, and his unit's, ...

Now a necron overlord, an independent character, can have a res orb, and has EL, so even though he may be removed as a casualty (and replaced by an EL counter) he is still a member of the unit as he and his unit can benefit from the res orb.

And a necron lord, from a royal court and not an independent character, can have a res orb, and has EL, so even though he may be removed as a casualty (and replaced by an EL counter) he is still a member of the unit as he and his unit can benefit from the res orb.

And if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance, the unit is destroyed.

Unless you want to argue that if the overlord or lord are removed and replaced by an EL counter that they are suddenly no longer a part of the unit. In which case, the unit could not benefit from the res orb. But the FAQ says they can.

So they are still one unit supported by the FAQ, and that's a fact.

time wizard wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:
Sorry. the EverLiving rules and FAQ seem to totally disagree with you.

Try again.

Like this FAQ?

Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes.

...his, and his unit's, ...

Now a necron overlord, an independent character, can have a res orb, and has EL, so even though he may be removed as a casualty (and replaced by an EL counter) he is still a member of the unit as he and his unit can benefit from the res orb.

And a necron lord, from a royal court and not an independent character, can have a res orb, and has EL, so even though he may be removed as a casualty (and replaced by an EL counter) he is still a member of the unit as he and his unit can benefit from the res orb.

And if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance, the unit is destroyed.

Unless you want to argue that if the overlord or lord are removed and replaced by an EL counter that they are suddenly no longer a part of the unit. In which case, the unit could not benefit from the res orb. But the FAQ says they can.

So they are still one unit supported by the FAQ, and that's a fact.

Except the FAQ specifically permits the EL model to return to play when the UNIT no longer exists.

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

If i'm reading the rules posted right, only when you pass your EL roll and return the model are you allowed to join another unit (leaving the now destroyed one).

But with the EL model being attached to a unit that's been swept would prevent it making the roll in the first place.

Or am I reading it wrong?

NecronLord3 wrote:Except the fact that the EverLiving rules do not work EVER if it is a part of the unit for Royal Court Members.

What? Maybe my migraine is messing with my brain too much, but I can't parse that sentence.

Hmm whats this? Placed in coherency. eligible to join. How is an EL unit eligible to join a unit, if already attached to one.

That's right. It's not attached to a unit when it is removed as a casualty.

You're making an assumptive leap that's not supported by rules.

An EL IC is eligible to join a unit if it dropped unattached and stands up in range of units.
You're making the assumption that because it mentions the words eligible, all EL IC's *must* be eligible - with no rules basis for that assumption.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NecronLord3 wrote:Except the FAQ specifically permits the EL model to return to play when the UNIT no longer exists.

Now you're back to EL coming back from SA.

NecronLord3 wrote: Except the FAQ specifically permits the EL model to return to play when the UNIT no longer exists.

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

I must be missing the line in there that says the character can make that roll if the entire unit is wiped out due to a sweeping advance.

Therefore, there is no specific exception to the sweeping advance rule.

A few points here: is a regular Lord an IC? On page 30 of the codex he is listed as one. A cryptek on the next flipped page is listed as a character, not an IC. Odd.

The RP states explicitly that Characters don't save units. So the only argument left is if a EL character can get back up through sweeping advance.

At current Sweeping Advance specifically overrides any special rule though so unless a FAQ shows up saying IC's can still get up I think they are destroyed.

Mind, I am primarily a necron player so am not voting in my own favor here, this just makes the most sense to me.

Spectral Dragon wrote:A few points here: is a regular Lord an IC? On page 30 of the codex he is listed as one.

Page 30 under special rules says, "...Independent Character (Necron Overlord only), ..."

The regular lord is: Infantry (Character)

The Overlord is an independent character.

time wizard wrote:

Spectral Dragon wrote:A few points here: is a regular Lord an IC? On page 30 of the codex he is listed as one.

Page 30 under special rules says, "...Independent Character (Necron Overlord only), ..."

The regular lord is: Infantry (Character)

The Overlord is an independent character.

Somehow missed that, thanks.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Sorry. the EverLiving rules and FAQ seem to totally disagree with you.

Try again.

No they dont - well, not unless you totally make gak up that has no basis in rules.

Oh wait, I see what you did there. You DID make gak up that has no basis in rules!


Try again - some actual rules owuld be useful, anytime you feel like it

I think what we have here is a clear indication of rules from the past contradicting rules form the present and possible future

The Necrons suffered for a long time with 3rd Ed rules in a 5 Ed game ,now they are suffering from 5th ed rules with (and i am sure most will agree) 6th ed rules based codex

The EL rules has been written with 6th Ed in mind making the 5th Ed SA rule superfluous.

Until the 6th Ed is released we have to use 5th Ed rules ,which will (as has been seen with other crossed Ed codex's) cause rules issues.

The argument we have here should be( I hope) resolved with SA rules being re written for 6th Ed , until then this Argument will rage on with no satisfactory outcome for any side of the argument

Although i do not like the SA trumps EL argument, unfortunately until the 6th ed is released ,it is what it is ,and EL fails under those rules

Happyjew wrote:My reading of that part of the rule is for IC's who are not part of a unit. So in your example, the IC is not eligible to join Unit B as it is a part of Unit A. If the IC was not a member of Unit A or B, then he could join either one.

Hmm, I don't see that same linkage as you. I read that particular section of the EL rules as describing how to return:

An EL model that returns to a unit which is still present (and was attached to that unit).
An EL model that is not part of a unit and returned to play.

There there's a statement which applies to either case. This is in regards to making sure that the returning EL model is not placed within 1'' of an enemy model.

Finally, there is a statement that describes a situation in which the returning EL model can be placed in coherency to one or more friendly units. The bit about eligible is in reference to staying within 3'' of the marker and at least 1'' away from an enemy model.

And EL doesn't care about being an IC. It only cares about models that have the EL property. Meaning as long as a model has EL it can potentially leave and join another unit (per the EL rules) at the end of any phase.

-Yad

Yad wrote:And EL doesn't care about being an IC. It only cares about models that have the EL property. Meaning as long as a model has EL it can potentially leave and join another unit (per the EL rules) at the end of any phase.

-Yad

Yes! Indeed! It can leave the unit and/or join another at the end of the phase.

Perfect!

And when does one roll for RP and EL? At the end of the phase.

And when does a sweeping advance occur? From page 40, if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately."

Let's repeat that so everyone gets it. "The destroyed unit is removed immediately."

Not at the end of the phase, not when they make their EL roll, but immediately!

So, the character with the EL rule is part of the unit, again as per the res orb FAQ, and if the unit is swept, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately.".

So at the end of the phase, there are no RP or El counters to roll for, they have already been removed when the unit was destroyed.