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As a casualty is fluff now? I forget, you get to redefine / ignore words in the middle of a rule when they destroy your argument.

Lol, you just get worse

Oh, and still doesnt affect Sweeping Advance, which ignores EL and RP.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As a casualty is fluff now? I forget, you get to redefine / ignore words in the middle of a rule when they destroy your argument.

Lol, you just get worse

Oh, and still doesnt affect Sweeping Advance, which ignores EL and RP.

Is this supposed to be a response to my quoting the FAQ and all other reason and evidence I've shown?

Instead of responding to the individual point, you instead accuse me of not being consistent and then move on to make some unsupported statement about some other part of the rule.

If there is anything someone can see from my history on this board is that I do my best to support my statements consistently and from RAW.

1) You like to ignore words / part phrases that destroy your a rgument - "distance" and "as a casualty" are just a couple of your most recent efforts. Your history on this board is a complete failure to argue actual rules, instead preferring your own made up version which has no basis in the written word and betrays a dishonest approach to arguing

2) The rule requires you to have been removed as a casualty in order to place a token. Jaws removes you from Play, not as a casualty. So you dont get to place a token. Your "response" to this is to declare that "as a casualty" is fluff - right in the middle of the rule You have no actual rules basis for sayingt his, of course, but then this isnt a shock.

3) Sweeping advance entirely ignores EL and RP, because neither EL and RP specify they work aginst SA. So yes, there is more than one way for a unit to be wiped out, and this is the more specific situation than the FAQ.

nosferatu1001 wrote:1) You like to ignore words / part phrases that destroy your a rgument - "distance" and "as a casualty" are just a couple of your most recent efforts. Your history on this board is a complete failure to argue actual rules, instead preferring your own made up version which has no basis in the written word and betrays a dishonest approach to arguing

Your entire argument on "distance" is based on a method of measuring (in a circle to show coherency) that is not described anywhere in the rules. It's completely fabricated. Yet you claim I am not referencing actual rules?

I have shown many times clearly that "as a casualty" is fluff. BRB p. 24 defines what the rule mean by "casualty". It means "not necessarily dead". That can only be fluff as models are not actually alive. The sad fact is that the entire RFP vs RFPaaC is pushed by Space Wolves players trying to make JotWW remove models in some special way NEVER defined by the BRB. In EVERY instance in the BRB removal of a model also uses the fluff term "as a casualty" with the true in game effect - removal.

At this point I don't expect an objective response from you in any case.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The sad fact is that the entire RFP vs RFPaaC is pushed by Space Wolves players trying to make JotWW remove models in some special way NEVER defined by the BRB.

False. Please apologize. a) I'm not a Space Wolves player, and likely never will be. b) I've been one of the bigger proponents of RFP != RFPaaC. c) I do my best to not inject bias into any rules argument.
Accusing me otherwise without proof isn't very polite.

The definition of casualty in the rules (last paragraph on page 24) is fluff. The phrase "removed from play as a casualty" is not fluff.

Whether or not any model in a unit is removed as a casualty or removed from play has no bearing on sweeping advance.

When a unit is swept, it is destroyed. The entire unit. And it is destroyed at that point. So any rule that might take effect at the end of the phase can't help the unit either.

And again, sweeping advance requires that an army's special rule must specify that it ignores sweeping advance.

I see the points people are arguing about, but feel like I may have missed something.

If a unit is swept it's destroyed. No tokens placed, no way of saving them.

In order to be swept the necrons have failed their moral test so any RP tokens already placed are removed.

If an EL model is killed in close combat (a powerfist to the face for example), a EL token is placed.

What I'm missing is how the sweep removes the already placed token. Is the token specifically part of the unit, and so must be removed?

It doesn't. That token stays on the table. SA only affects the unit .

grendel083 wrote:What I'm missing is how the sweep removes the already placed token. Is the token specifically part of the unit, and so must be removed?

SA destroys the unit, and nothing can bring the unit back unless it explicitly specifies it works vs SA.

Bringing an EL model from the unit back is bringing the unit back.

So the token stays - you can even roll for it if you want - but actually bringing the model back is prevented.

time wizard wrote:Whether or not any model in a unit is removed as a casualty or removed from play has no bearing on sweeping advance.

When a unit is swept, it is destroyed. The entire unit. And it is destroyed at that point. So any rule that might take effect at the end of the phase can't help the unit either.

And again, sweeping advance requires that an army's special rule must specify that it ignores sweeping advance.

I agree, for a unit to stay in combat and not be killed or removed and combat to continue, a special rule must specify it ignores SA.

Whether a EL model may place a token when swept is not always important. If a model with EL is killed before the end of combat certainly there can be a token already placed. SA does not remove these tokens.

Isn't sweeping advance an action taken by the unit and why would SA say "at this stage" if it was meant to be "forever"?

If consolidation occurs after sweeping advance, what prevents the model from coming back at the end of the combat phase?

Regardless of anything else, "at this stage" does not mean "unless you can do something after this."

Nemesor Dave wrote:Isn't sweeping advance an action taken by the unit and why would SA say "at this stage" if it was meant to be "forever"?

Because that's what "at this stage" means in this context.
Until there's something that changes the state (and the SA rules say that whatever does change the state has to specify SA) "at this stage" is the same as "from here on out" or "forever".
It's not a single point in time.

rigeld2 wrote:

grendel083 wrote:What I'm missing is how the sweep removes the already placed token. Is the token specifically part of the unit, and so must be removed?

SA destroys the unit, and nothing can bring the unit back unless it explicitly specifies it works vs SA.

Bringing an EL model from the unit back is bringing the unit back.

So the token stays - you can even roll for it if you want - but actually bringing the model back is prevented.

This makes sense, my confusion was assuming EL was a rule for Independant Characters.

Would the same apply in this case? The IC was not destroyed by the sweep (but by close combat). Returning the IC model would not bring the unit back (if the unit an IC joins is destroyed, he reverts back to being an IC, free to join other units).

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:The sad fact is that the entire RFP vs RFPaaC is pushed by Space Wolves players trying to make JotWW remove models in some special way NEVER defined by the BRB.

False. Please apologize. a) I'm not a Space Wolves player, and likely never will be. b) I've been one of the bigger proponents of RFP != RFPaaC. c) I do my best to not inject bias into any rules argument.
Accusing me otherwise without proof isn't very polite.

The definition of casualty in the rules (last paragraph on page 24) is fluff. The phrase "removed from play as a casualty" is not fluff.

Sorry, I should not say SW players, but certainly the wording of the SW codex can be blamed. The action you make - the thing you do, is remove a model. Do you remove a model differently as a dead, missing in action, or as burned to a crisp?

Certainly I only "remove models" from the table.

An IC is only treated as a separate unit when close combat attacks are resolved. After that, the IC is again treated as a normal member of the unit.

And SA destroys the unit.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Sorry, I should not say SW players, but certainly the wording of the SW codex can be blamed.

If that was the case, then the wording would only exist in the SW codex. I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

The action you make - the thing you do, is remove a model. Do you remove a model differently as a dead, missing in action, or as burned to a crisp?

Yes - that is the action you take. That is not the rules effect of you taking that action. The rules treat RFP differently from RFPaaC.

If the IC dies before the SA, it is removed from play. All ties to the unit are severed at that point. The unit swept may not come back but an IC rolling succesfully EL forms its own unit (and this unit never got swept in the 1st palce).

copper.talos wrote:If the IC dies before the SA, it is removed from play. All ties to the unit are severed at that point. The unit swept may not come back but an IC rolling succesfully EL forms its own unit (and this unit never got swept in the 1st palce).

So if the IC has an orb, it does not effect the unit? (ignoring SA for a moment, let's say he died from shooting)

kirsanth wrote:Regardless of anything else, "at this stage" does not mean "unless you can do something after this."

I understand "at this stage" to mean at a specific time in the game and SA is an action that is done and finished before the unit does anything else.

In fluff terms, the winner of combat scours the battlefield crushing the life out of anything left.
Consolidation means they gather together and move off the area.
At the end of phase occurs after all this action is over bits and pieces of the EL guy reanimate.

Certainly if Celestine can come back it works no differently for necrons.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Regardless of anything else, "at this stage" does not mean "unless you can do something after this."

I understand "at this stage" to mean at a specific time in the game and SA is an action that is done and finished before the unit does anything else.

And that's not how the phrase is normally used.

Certainly if Celestine can come back it works no differently for necrons.

Celestine has an FAQ allowing it. Do Necrons?

rigeld2 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:If the IC dies before the SA, it is removed from play. All ties to the unit are severed at that point. The unit swept may not come back but an IC rolling succesfully EL forms its own unit (and this unit never got swept in the 1st palce).

So if the IC has an orb, it does not effect the unit? (ignoring SA for a moment, let's say he died from shooting)

An IC cannot leave a unit in the shooting or assault phase (think this answers my earlier question, he is tied to the unit).

Unless being killed counts as leaving a unit? (a stupid question for anyone other than necrons)

Orb has the wording and a faq to make it work for an IC and his unit. And that is because it affects how the RP and EL rules resolve.

@grendel083 if something is removed from play how can it be affected by something in play?

grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:If the IC dies before the SA, it is removed from play. All ties to the unit are severed at that point. The unit swept may not come back but an IC rolling succesfully EL forms its own unit (and this unit never got swept in the 1st palce).

So if the IC has an orb, it does not effect the unit? (ignoring SA for a moment, let's say he died from shooting)

Unless being killed counts as leaving a unit? (a stupid question for anyone other than necrons)

That's how I read copper's assertion, and why I'm asking for clarification.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:Orb has the wording and a faq to make it work for an IC and his unit. And that is because it affects how the RP and EL rules resolve.

@grendel083 if something is removed from play how can it be affected by something in play?

It isn't. The unit is.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
Your entire argument on "distance" is based on a method of measuring (in a circle to show coherency) that is not described anywhere in the rules. It's completely fabricated. Yet you claim I am not referencing actual rules?

Lol. Your entire argument ignored that word "distance" and tried to claim that every single time you measure ANYTHING in 40k it is base to base. When confronted with how totally and utterly wrong this was - measuring distance for a units move - you ignored it and continued on pretending that the word "distance" did not exist. You not only made up rules, you entirely ignored words AND rules when given to you.

You have one consistent thing - you lie about rules. All the time.

Nemesor Dave wrote:I have shown many times clearly that "as a casualty" is fluff. BRB p. 24 defines what the rule mean by "casualty". It means "not necessarily dead". That can only be fluff as models are not actually alive.

Wrong. As has been shown to you - but yet again you like to make up rules, so arguing you with is pointless. Correcting your posts and pointing out that you have zero credibility when arguing rules, so others arent taken in by your made up gak, is the only reason I respond to your posts.

Nemesor Dave wrote: The sad fact is that the entire RFP vs RFPaaC is pushed by Space Wolves players trying to make JotWW remove models in some special way NEVER defined by the BRB.

Bzzzzzzzt. I guess you havent read the DE codex either - or is this now a conspiracy by DE players as well? Anyone else you would like to insult while you're here? Apologies all round I would suggest.

Nemesor Dave wrote:At this point I don't expect an objective response from you in any case.

I've already given objective answers, multiple times. You make up rules, lie about existing rules, and ignore inconvenient words and phrases as you see fit in the vain hope people will be taken in by your arguments. We're not.


Fact: Sweeping Advance removes any and all EL or RP models that are members of the unit. Downed models awaiting EL rolls are still members of the unit - ICs or not. Copper of course has no rules to back up his idea that unit ties are severed when the EL model is downed (and is in fact contradicted by the Necron codex, pointing out that the EL toek model is still joined to the unit, but thats yet another inconvenient fact) so this can be safely ignored as unsupported opinion.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Regardless of anything else, "at this stage" does not mean "unless you can do something after this."

I understand "at this stage" to mean at a specific time in the game and SA is an action that is done and finished before the unit does anything else.

And that's not how the phrase is normally used.

Of course a FAQ like Celestines one way or another would solve this.

Do you know of any other place that "at this stage" is used?

Nos - you've gone way overboard on this. The lack of civility and accusations not to mention demanding proof from others while providing none of your own are beyond reasonable.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Of course a FAQ like Celestines one way or another would solve this.

Do you know of any other place that "at this stage" is used?

In 40k's rules, no - I don't think so.
In common English - http://idioms.yourdictionary.com/at-this-stage

copper.talos wrote:Orb has the wording and a faq to make it work for an IC and his unit. And that is because it affects how the RP and EL rules resolve.

Right here you found the key to the lock.

Orb works for an IC and his unit. So even though the IC is nothing more than a counter on the board, it is still part of the unit.

If it is part of the unit for the res orb, then it is part of the unit for SA.

And SA.....destroys.....the.....unit.

Be careful Time, your relentless application of actual rules and logic may actually get through this time...

rigeld2 wrote:

grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:If the IC dies before the SA, it is removed from play. All ties to the unit are severed at that point. The unit swept may not come back but an IC rolling succesfully EL forms its own unit (and this unit never got swept in the 1st palce).

So if the IC has an orb, it does not effect the unit? (ignoring SA for a moment, let's say he died from shooting)

Unless being killed counts as leaving a unit? (a stupid question for anyone other than necrons)

That's how I read copper's assertion, and why I'm asking for clarification.

From what I can tell the only time an IC can leave a unit is in the movement phase. No mention of being dead counted, so even if being brought back by EL on his own he would still count as being part of the (now destroyed) unto until his next movement phase (which is disallowed by the sweep).

And seriously, can you lot flinging insults at each other take it somewhere else. Any resolution of the original question is just being buried under a mountain of bitching.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Be careful Time, your relentless application of actual rules and logic may actually get through this time...

One can always hope so!