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Support-staff Psiennes. And the numbers of Sisters Hospitalliers is an unknown affair, but I assume they are more than we suspect due to them being actually more well-known to the Imperial citizenry than the Battle-Sisters. Also setting up a hospital takes more than a single Sister Hospitallier.

When it comes to Ciaphas Cain I'm of the simple impression that he is smarking over sport-results Lynata, and that is a hell of a grudge, and I would know. I wouldn't even put it past him to deliberately lie about one and for once fooling Veil, due to the sport-result grudge.

The "support staff" of the Sisterhood is either Initiates or other members of the Ecclesiarchy, or members of the other groups I mentioned previously. They don't have "Chapter Serfs" or anything of the sort like the Astartes do.

And how do you explain the following many girls join the ranks of the Adepta Sororitas, yet their small number? It just doesn't add up, however, if you consider the support-material, then the number-crunch get a bit easier. Most entering the convents in my mind will never put on the powered armour as they are likely found wanting in some way without being condemned to the Sister Repentia.

Psienesis wrote:I'd imagine that the Sisters in a war-zone have the locals to depend on for defense of their hospital, under normal circumstances, whether that's the local citizen militia, the PDF, the IG on-world with the Sisters or even a local Arbites detachment. At the very least, I can see the Sisters looping some Frateris Militia guys into guarding the doors to the hospital in the event they feel it would be necessary, and this is, of course, assuming that no actual Battle Sisters are present to provide the service.

Duh, I completely forgot about local support. That makes a lot of sense. *nods*

Psienesis wrote:I don't see the Hospitallers generally traveling in sufficient numbers to provide the medical care that is their primary mission and also able to post several guards over a hospital facility.

That's the question. They do seem to be structured much like the Orders Militant in terms of deployment. See this Force Disposition Chart on the 13th Black Crusade - and note that the Orders of the Ermine Mantle and the Wounded Heart are Hospitallers. Naturally, the majority of them would be doctors and nurses, but I could see them including a few armed guards, perhaps even Battle Sisters who were once members of an Order Militant but have been transferred to the Hospitaller for this very purpose. Not many, of course, just about 4-5 for the entire convent. A token vigil, if you will. Or, well, the alternative, with the Orders Hospitaller stockpiling weapons and having the nursemaids pick them up when the situation requires. They are trained to use them, after all. If I remember correctly, one of the FFG books had a short story about one such occurrence, and though I criticize much of their version of the Sororitas for not being up to par to GW material, this is something I'd be willing to adopt.

Psienesis wrote:Being as they're nuns, I can see them being very good at guilting IG commanders into giving up a few troops to use as guards.

A good point.

Beaviz81 wrote:And how do you explain the following many girls join the ranks of the Adepta Sororitas, yet their small number?

I don't think it's that many who join them - granted, they have the entire Schola Progenium to tap for (wo)manpower, but they're still only recruiting the top performers. It's why even the Major Orders at times can go down to just a few hundred Sisters from their nominal size until the Schola has funneled enough novices to them to make up for the losses.

Of course, recruitment numbers depend on one's interpretation, so I suppose this is something where our individual visions of the Sisterhood might disagree.

I guess so, I'm sort of a realist, I want the numbers to make sense, as a continent-spanning convent populated with 300 SOB makes less than zero sense, also not every failed Space Marine ends up dead. They end up as the guys driving the Battle Barges, washing the Space Marines, making the meals, doing the logistics, must be like 200 guys doing some work for every Space Marine, and they also know some of the secrets of the Chapter. That being said, I think of the Sisters of Battle in that way as well. And with the massive support around them plus all that gets execute for not being pure of faith.

Of course, if you don't like it, then you are free to disagree.

Beaviz81 wrote:I guess so, I'm sort of a realist, I want the numbers to make sense, as a continent-spanning convent populated with 300 SOB makes less than zero sense, also not every failed Space Marine ends up dead. They end up as the guys driving the Battle Barges, washing the Space Marines, making the meals, doing the logistics, must be like 200 guys doing some work for every Space Marine, and they also know some of the secrets of the Chapter. That being said, I think of the Sisters of Battle in that way as well.

To be fair it's this way with all the different forces in GW publications - no one cares to describe the support functions in any great detail because it's assumed we all want to hear about the grimdark endless war and the people fighting the bloody fight. Chapter serfs sweating as they load up ammo in a Rhino and drive it to the front? Nah, instead show us a marine crushing a skull with his left fist while simultaneously blasting down three enemies with the bolter in his right hand, that's cool! Unarmed Sisters lighting candles and saying prayers for the wounded? Bah! Give us armored Sisters instead, relentlessly advancing through a battle-scarred cityscape as they burn out heretics and traitors with flamethrowers and massed close-in bolter fire.

We're even given force lists on how marine chapters are organized, down to individual vehicle counts and fleet strength - and not a word on how many crewmen, serfs and servitors it takes to keep all that stuff running at peak efficiency. As some posters have pointed out in other threads a chapter could hardly field more than half it's listed strength if it was actually full marines driving all the vehicles and commanding all the ships.

You are spot on with my point Spetulhu.

And check the real-life soldiers as well, there there are 50 guys for every guy in the trench doing the boring work you don't wanna hear about.

Yes GW is generally very poor with numbers. They have tried to explain away the whole 1 million Astartes dilemma and have gotten quite adept at it, but it still doesn't make very much sense.

SoB's are in a worse mess though. Going by GW numbers I'd be surprised if there were 250,000. Really, a major Order Militant should be 1 million Battle Sisters and an undefined number of Lessers around 100,000. They'd still be grossly undermanned for their mission, but it'd be a start at least.

Given the way they are used, or at least should be used, a single Space Marine in the fluff is worth a dozen average guardsman.

And check the real-life soldiers as well, there there are 50 guys for every guy in the trench doing the boring work you don't wanna hear about.

No, there's 4 or 5 support personnel for every combat-ready soldier. Not 50. And this average, at least in the US military, is changing, moving more towards 3-4 support personnel for every combat arms soldier.

Of the Sisterhood, they don't execute one another for laxity of faith, except in the rarest of circumstances. It is rare in the utmost for a Sister to commit anything that would be considered a Heresy, and of those that do make such a transgression, that is what they have the Sisters Repentia for. She will find her absolution in death destroying the foes of the Emperor. The Sisterhood does not make use of anything approaching a Commissar.

Of the girls from the Schola who attempt to become Sisters, but fail to make the cut, they cycle them back into other roles or occupations within the Adeptus Terra or the Ecclesiarchy. There are, after all, plenty of jobs in the Administratum or the Ecclesiarchy that can be performed by women without those women needing to be Sisters of Battle. Some sects of the Imperial Cult even have all-female orders that are not the Sororitas, or mixed-gender priesthoods and such.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Where do the SoB get their troops from?

Storks.

Occasionaly GW stores but now they have to mail order them or get them on ebay.

TermiesInARaider wrote:What's the selection/training process like?

Evening gown, talent and swimsuit.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Is there any sort of augmentation, or are the SoB baseline humans?

Silicone.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Also, are they dateable?

Sure.

Provided you're a 10' tall guy in solid gold armor.

Psienesis wrote:

And check the real-life soldiers as well, there there are 50 guys for every guy in the trench doing the boring work you don't wanna hear about.

No, there's 4 or 5 support personnel for every combat-ready soldier. Not 50. And this average, at least in the US military, is changing, moving more towards 3-4 support personnel for every combat arms soldier.

But that average is being moved by using so-called military contractors for support work. Instead of some Colonel having to report a soldier killed a corporate CEO or his aide sends a message about how contractor so-and-so has been killed in the line of duty.

The only way you get to 50 is if you also figure in the guys making all your arms and equipment.

Harriticus wrote:SoB's are in a worse mess though. Going by GW numbers I'd be surprised if there were 250,000. Really, a major Order Militant should be 1 million Battle Sisters and an undefined number of Lessers around 100,000. They'd still be grossly undermanned for their mission, but it'd be a start at least.

Ugh, no. I actually prefer their rarity the way it is presented in GW sources. It makes them seem elite, and it fits both to the exclusiveness of their Astartes-level equipment (10 million suits of power armor?!) as well as the overall theme of "trying to stem the tide". What I mean with this is that there aren't meant to be "enough Sisters", just like there aren't meant to be "enough Space Marines". Providing the Imperium with the resources it actually needs to do what it wants would end up sacrificing the grim hopelessness of the setting and have the Eternal War turn into a heroic conquest of the galaxy that might actually end some day. Sure, some people would like that, but I think the dystopian stalemate is a rather important part of 40k.

Plus, when the Ecclesiarchy has "enough Sisters", what would they need the Frateris Militia - the Ecclesiarchy's actual "line infantry" - for? The gaps left open by the small numbers of the Sisterhood serve a number of purposes in terms of the story.

As usual, it comes down to personal preferences. There are certainly a number of different interpretations that make the Sisters look like an army of millions, in licensed material too.

I didn't know the Ecclesiarchy had line-infantry. They have the Sisters of Battle. Not men under arms, sure many there are males, as only the protestant church lately has had many female priests. But then again I'm broad in my interpretation of an Adepta Sororita just as I'm with the Space Marines. The support-staff likely is members of the Ecclesiarchy, but that points boils it down to different wording.

Lynata wrote:

Harriticus wrote:SoB's are in a worse mess though. Going by GW numbers I'd be surprised if there were 250,000. Really, a major Order Militant should be 1 million Battle Sisters and an undefined number of Lessers around 100,000. They'd still be grossly undermanned for their mission, but it'd be a start at least.

Ugh, no. I actually prefer their rarity the way it is presented in GW sources. It makes them seem elite, and it fits both to the exclusiveness of their Astartes-level equipment (10 million suits of power armor?!) as well as the overall theme of "trying to stem the tide". What I mean with this is that there aren't meant to be "enough Sisters", just like there aren't meant to be "enough Space Marines". Providing the Imperium with the resources it actually needs to do what it wants would end up sacrificing the grim hopelessness of the setting and have the Eternal War turn into a heroic conquest of the galaxy that might actually end some day. Sure, some people would like that, but I think the dystopian stalemate is a rather important part of 40k.

Plus, when the Ecclesiarchy has "enough Sisters", what would they need the Frateris Militia - the Ecclesiarchy's actual "line infantry" - for? The gaps left open by the small numbers of the Sisterhood serve a number of purposes in terms of the story.

As usual, it comes down to personal preferences. There are certainly a number of different interpretations that make the Sisters look like an army of millions, in licensed material too.

~10 Million Sororitas vs billions upon billions of Guardsmen still makes them extremely rare. Just not rarer then Space Marines, which makes no sense as it is as they're inferior to them.

Possibly, but support personnel, even in the days when they were active duty soldiers, were REMFs, and so the odds of them being KIA were remotely slim. As in, you are more likely to be struck by lightning than killed by enemy fire.

Support personnel are, by definition, in a support role elsewhere, performing a job that is, itself, not combat-related, whether that's being a doctor, a cook, a laundry & bath specialist or a bullet counter. Of course, actual military personnel do not get, and have not been, involved in the actual productions of arms and armor in a very, very long time (never in the history of the United States, this has always been private companies).

This does not include the use of "military contractors" who pull security detail, escort and bodyguard duties, and the like. These people are basically mercenaries, and all they are doing is combat-arms roles. So, yes, they are far more likely to find themselves in combat. This, however, is not the role of a "support personnel", and to include them in such a list is... deceptive, at best.

I actually agree with Harriticus. His assessment makes sense, but it all comes down to how we understand the number-cringe.

Plus Arbitrators and Inquisitors get power armour as well, so that renders your point sort of moot Lynata. I would go for their extreme faith before their equipment if I should go for the small numbers as everybody and their dog wears power armour.

Arbites might get power armor if they are fairly high-ranking, but the average Arbiter wears carapace.

The Frateris Militia is exactly that, a militia. It's hundreds to thousands or more of the faithful, from all walks of life, some being former Guardsmen, others being just Hiveworld sewage workers, to everything in between, that get "on fire" for the God-Emperor and decide to go persecute some Heretics over on that other planet over there.

Most of them don't even have guns or armor, but they can pick up a stick or a knife or a rock or a welding kit or a rock-drill or some other bit of tech that works as a weapon in a pinch and follow the Ecclesiarchy into a War of Faith.

What I want to know is why do all the sisters have white hair?

Because there's not much else to do in the Convent after prayers, classes, training, prayers, training, classes, preaching, incense burning, and polishing the power armor other than to do your hair. Peroxide is cheap and plentiful, and probably used in some other, mundane role, and so is not seen as the sin of vanity or luxury, and is thus the only thing the Sisters have on hand.

So they randomly white-washes their hair?

Can be, I like it better to turn white though.

Sorry, I didn't wanna sound harsh, but the reason sounded odd.

They obviously want to look like their patron saint, Madonna the Materialistic.

Edit: On the size issue, according to Imperial Guard Codex, 5th Edition there are only 10,000 Stormtroopers, excluding Kasrkin and Inquisitorial Storm Troopers.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:Where do the SoB get their troops from?

Storks.

Occasionaly GW stores but now they have to mail order them or get them on ebay.

TermiesInARaider wrote:What's the selection/training process like?

Evening gown, talent and swimsuit.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Is there any sort of augmentation, or are the SoB baseline humans?

Silicone.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Also, are they dateable?

Sure.

Provided you're a 10' tall guy in solid gold armor.

*bludgeons Kyoto Kid with his golden adamantium alloy power fist.* It's not made of gold, me dammit! Gold would be too soft!

Hello ladies, you looking good, you looking fine.

It ain't easy being a pimp...errrr...God Emperor...

Commissar41.0 wrote:What I want to know is why do all the sisters have white hair?

They don't - some do others have varied hair colours - possible reasons:

Its actually natural to sone of the worlds that girels have been recruited from,
There may be a traditon to colour the hair in meomory of some estemed member of the Order

re other points:

Whilst the Church is not allowed troops - there are a few get arounds - the Sisterhood is one - there are also bodygaurds inlcuding the IIRC the Crusaders of Cardinals Crimson:

Crusader of Cardinals Crimson
An ancient and mysterious order of warriors dedicated to martial perfection and unflagging devotion to the Emperor. Bearing their signature arms – power weapons and storm shields, they make perfect bodyguards for the senior members of the Ecclesiarchy

These bodyguards could be reasonable sized units of varying quality.

I sort of assumed they might dye it white for their spiritual purity, or black as they are a penitent organization. Though I think they might have the haircolor turn white or black due to their extreme faith. Stranger things happens daily in the WH40k-universe, like SOB resurrecting and coming back to life as Living Saints.

Bodyguards ain't millions of soldiers. If they are then the Church is blatantly violating the Decree Passive with just a name-change instead of the SOB being the actual soldiers said in the fluff. Also when the Ecchlesiarchy leads men in combat it tends to be badly equipped rabble and zealots with only their bodyguards being a hardened core.

Commissar41.0 wrote:What I want to know is why do all the sisters have white hair?

The Order of Our Martyred Lady has white hair as a symbol of mourning.

The other orders do not have any set hair color.

Beaviz81 wrote:I didn't know the Ecclesiarchy had line-infantry.

Sure. That's what the Frateris Militia effectively amounts to. They're supposed to disband them after a conflict, but in each and every War of Faith or Imperial Crusade or local conflict (especially in local conflicts, as the Confessors can raise a Frateris band much quicker than they would receive Sororitas backup - if it'd come at all), it's the Militia that makes up the vast majority of an Ecclesiarchal host. The Sisters of Battle are merely the vanguard, or spearhead if you will. The experienced and inspiring elite core around which the masses of the faithful form up.

Beaviz81 wrote:The support-staff likely is members of the Ecclesiarchy, but that points boils it down to different wording.

Actually, the Codices make it clear that the convents are Sororitas-only. Unless during rare and exceptional circumstances (such as hosting a VIP or protecting a bunch of refugees), there is literally no-one inside other than the Sisters. They do prize their isolation, as it is part of their way of life.

Harriticus wrote:Just not rarer then Space Marines, which makes no sense as it is as they're inferior to them.

Of course, this argument makes sense only if you are absolutely convinced that a soldier's skill is automatically, at all times, an indicator of how common he or she is.

This way of thinking ends in stuff like "The National Guard is more elite than the U.S. Army because it has fewer members!"

No, that's just not how I see it. In fact, the Battle Sisters' ability to come quite close to the Marines (enough so that they can beat them and have individual commanders call their Orders "equal") is the very reason for why there are so few of them. Space Marines are created artificially; "bred" by recruiting promising candidates and then enhancing them with all kinds of surgical procedures. It shouldn't surprise that there are very, very few "natural" humans who can face the sort of fights that Marines do day by day, even if you've got an entire galaxy to scour for recruits instead of just the one or two worlds assigned to most Chapters.

Plus, it's quite simply the way GW wrote it, and everything in its material - most clearly the Force Disposition Charts for famous battles like Armageddon 3 or the 13th Black Crusade - supports this. A sudden x10 or x100 increase in Sororitas numbers would quite simply make all of this information look conflicted and illogical, and would serve no other purpose than fulfilling this "they must be more than the Marines" opinion.

Funny sidenote: The Imperial Guard Storm Troopers have even fewer numbers than the Sisters of Battle. The entire regiment - and there is just a single one - contains 10.000 soldiers. True story. See the 2E Codex IG.

Beaviz81 wrote:Plus Arbitrators and Inquisitors get power armour as well, so that renders your point sort of moot Lynata.

Wat. I have never seen an Arbitrator with power armour, and Inquisitors are even way fewer than SoB.

Again, though, I'm pointing out that I am following the interpretation propagated by GW material on these subjects. I am well aware that there are some novels and RPGs around which contain contradictory information. In the end, we are all right and it comes down to personal preferences which version of Sisters we'd follow.

Mr Morden wrote:

Commissar41.0 wrote:What I want to know is why do all the sisters have white hair?

They don't - some do others have varied hair colours - possible reasons:
Its actually natural to sone of the worlds that girels have been recruited from,
There may be a traditon to colour the hair in meomory of some estemed member of the Order

It seems to be part of their uniform. If you compare the official pictures, every single Order is associated with one specific hair colour. The only deviations appear to be individual Canonesses who at times have streaks or fringes of hair in a secondary colour. A tiny hint of vanity, perhaps?

I'm also not sure they'd have to dye it regularly. It's 40k, they probably just give you an injection with some drug. Scientifically speaking, hair colour is determined by eumelanin and pheomelanin counts in the follicles. Change the rate at which they are produced and your hair will come out in a different colour.

Arbitrators are given carapace with the exception of a few of the more fortunate officers, according to FFG's materials.

I can agree to the few Sororitas-option, but that goes for faith (and that many fall short at the convents), not the equipment as it's too readily available to not be produced in the millions, which also is likely to be produced by the same women who sort of is rejected (not in the sense that they have utterly failed, as I think just a fraction of any of the millions of girls who take the Novice Advance end up as fully fledged Sororitas, and they are assigned other tasks instead around the Order they are attached to) as their Machine Spirits likely won't be too happy if someone not pure of heart is producing them.

Beaviz81 wrote:not the equipment as it's too readily available to not be produced in the millions

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree on this subject. Of course I'm somewhat biased in that I'm still going by the "blah blah rare blah artificers blah relics" talk GW has been spouting on power armour etc since 2E or so.