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Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:so we start with the kid in iowa.
http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/2012/0423/Iowa-teen-s-suicide-prompts-strong-anti-bullying-statement

to dan savage talking about his anti bully campaign
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao0k9qDsOvs&lc=j-YbM5SPUjUPzo0p1-TocPT2kJtNM1IcU-DFLQlE5TQ&feature=inbox

to this pastor in NC
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/05/02/north-carolina-pastor-sean-harris-urges-parents-to-man-up-and-punch-effeminate-children/

so pastors tell people to beat their kids if they act gay, dan savage says can't we just ignore that 1 extra part of the bible on top of all the other stuff we already ignore, to kids being bullied to the point of suicide.

Whats so awesome is thats completely not what the firestorm with gak for brains Savage is about.

Okay, so he links three stories. In the second one, a pastor tells his congregation:

Pastor Harris wrote:“So your little son starts to act a little girlish when he is four years old and instead of squashing that like a cockroach and saying, ‘Man up, son, get that dress off you and get outside and dig a ditch, because that is what boys do,’ you get out the camera and you start taking pictures of Johnny acting like a female and then you upload it to YouTube and everybody laughs about it and the next thing you know, this dude, this kid is acting out childhood fantasies that should have been squashed….Can I make it any clearer? Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch. Ok? You are not going to act like that. You were made by God to be a male and you are going to be a male.”

And in the second, Dan Savage says that some parts of the Bible are bs, and we should ignore those parts. A sentiment that you agree with.

And Dan's the firestorm gak for brains? Sometimes you really do post unconscionable things. I know you're not a stupid guy, but that was a doozy. Did you actually watch the video, or did you skip it? He didn't bash Christianity in general. He insulted hypocrites and bigots, not all Christians.

I think Dan was a little rough in his choice of rhetoric. You catch more flies with honey, after all. You can make the point that Christians routinely ignore inapplicable or immoral instructions in the Bible without having to use profanity. I think it would work better. That said, I'm not a gay dude and have never been beaten up or hated for my sexuality, so I can't really know where he's coming from in terms of lingering anger. Being gentler might sell the Christians better. That said, maybe he thinks it's more inspiring to the gay kids to be defiant, and that channeling that anger will help some of these kids not kill themselves.


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Frazzled wrote:Its ok. The Mannster and I have a special relationship and reserve the right to call each other flaming poopy heads of poopy poop, while at the same time knowing that if he comes to town he'll be forced to do my new found fun run of a swig of the Wife's private label wine (Wiener dog wine: red with a little bite) followed by stopping at Wtare to Wine before a movie where we sample a flight of wines, followed by the Flix Brewhouse where we will sit in leather recliners, watch a movie, eat dinner and drink...beer (ok more wine for me). The next morning I'll drag him out of bed to go blow up milk jugs with a few thousand rounds. Tbone will make him throw a ball a few hundred times (but only a few feet as he can't see it more than that).

Manny's He's my little Yankee Buddy.

Thanks, man. You're my little Redneck Buddy. I will hold you to that itinerary, though as I recall there needs to be some rum and single malt scotch in there, as previously-agreed. Sounds like I need to add a day or two if I go down to Austin for WargamesCon. Flix Brewhouse is better than the Alamo Drafthouse?

Amaya wrote:It wasn't that bad, but just like Thundercats and GI Joe (amongst other things), it's a wildly overrated children's show that people are nostalgic and obsessive over.

Thundercats, I used to really like that show. I think that was the dawn of the furries.

Back on topic though, no longer replying to amaya.

its odd that we can't seem to have a constructive conversation about how to deal with bullies. I mean really trying to bully other dakka members?

What can we do to stop bullies in school before the problem gets out of hand. We should be able to as a enlightened society find a way to keep kids from being bullied to the point where some will commit suicide, and others will go and shoot up the school.

Awareness is always the perfect place to start.

After that, instead of just suing the school, the parents of bullies need to be sued. The bullies need to be punished and the parents made part of the solution. just telling the victim to suck it up is not an answer.

If the parents of bullies don't seem to be able to control their kids, then the kids should be taken away from the parents.

I think this will go a long way to ending bullying in our schools.

If all the hatred towards gays seem to come from 3 lines in the bible, then openly discussing the bible is not persecuting christians. its getting to the root of a problem.

Flix Brewhouse is better than the Alamo Drafthouse?

Both are good. I like the seating for Flix better (seating by group being the earlier you ordered tickets the earlier you get in). Plus they are located next to an excellent wineshop.

I don't really know who the guy is., I don't care that much. I just don't like bashing Christians in a public forum with high school students.

Redneck? Well I did get hot today walking Tbone. I walked the other guys first then me and TBone to a nice slow Tbone walk because he can't keep up. Darned if a cat didn't run up to us and try to start gak. Seriously? Tbone mosied up to it and realized it wasn't a dog and had one of his senior moments anf got confused about where the hell he was at.

The whole "man up, deal with it, that's just life" arguments have always seemed strange to me. The deviant behaviour would be the bully's not the victim's is it not? Seems odd to request the victim to change their behaviour to comply with their tormentors, rather than demand the aggressor to stop being a bully.

Also I don't understand why sensitive people and the like need to "toughen up" and so on, shouldn't they be treated more delicately on account of you know...being sensitive? It's seems spiteful to criticize someone who already is very sensitive. Does being overly sensitive itself warrant the harassment? That seems like a very counter intuitive way of "fixing" them as it were.

Why should you 'ignore' parts of the Bible? If you actually consider those parts, you might notice that it's a pretty horrible book in places and not something to base morality on in the 21st Century.

As for bullying... it'll always happen so long as some kids are just exceptionally strange when considered next to the norm. I guess it should be discouraged and those that do it punished, but it's never going to leave. Children are cruel and generally dislike 'freaks'.

Frazzled wrote:

Flix Brewhouse is better than the Alamo Drafthouse?

Both are good. I like the seating for Flix better (seating by group being the earlier you ordered tickets the earlier you get in). Plus they are located next to an excellent wineshop.

Cool. Sounds like a plan!

Frazzled wrote:I don't really know who the guy is., I don't care that much. I just don't like bashing Christians in a public forum with high school students.

Understood, of course. If you watch the video you will see that he was not bashing all Christians. He was specifically bashing bigoted and hypocritical Christians. He used provocative language, talking about "bs in the Bible", which was probably making the point a bit rougher than he needed to, and has since apologized. I've been reading his stuff off and on for about twenty years now, and he's a bit of a personal hero, though he's screwed up a few times trying to do the right thing and make a difference. Heck, he's one of the few liberals I knew who supported going to war with Iraq, because he genuinely believed it was the right thing to do at the time, and was willing to go against the crowd to say so publicly.

Frazzled wrote:Redneck? Well I did get hot today walking Tbone. I walked the other guys first then me and TBone to a nice slow Tbone walk because he can't keep up. Darned if a cat didn't run up to us and try to start gak. Seriously? Tbone mosied up to it and realized it wasn't a dog and had one of his senior moments anf got confused about where the hell he was at.

Nice. If you're going to call me "little buddy", I get to call you redneck.

This is the first thing that comes to mind when someone mentions bullying:

ahahahaha

It's interesting that people keep telling people it will stop after high school. Standing up for yourself is something you have to learn early or else you'll be walked on all your life. They may not be shoving you in your locker and stealing your lunch money, but they will still walk all over you.

People are cut-throat and just because older folks know not to call someone a epithet and punch them in the gentle person parts, doesn't mean they won't stab you in them when the time comes.

The methods change, but bullying remains.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:It's interesting that people keep telling people it will stop after high school.

In some ways it can be a bit worse after high school. Working for a dick can have much larger implications than having to deal with one at school where it doesn't affect your career or livelihood.

asimo77 wrote: It's seems spiteful to criticize someone who already is very sensitive.

It depends entirely on the intent of the criticism. Is it specifically done to spite them, or is it just a descriptive statement regarding the nature of some aspects of life and that people should develop skills to cope with the fact that there are dildos roaming the earth?

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
The methods change, but bullying remains.

And the methods of countering it are much more delicate.

dogma wrote:

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
The methods change, but bullying remains.

And the methods of countering it are much more delicate.

Strychnine?

Bromsy wrote:
Strychnine?

I was thinking more "Frame them for embezzlement."

dogma wrote:

Bromsy wrote:
Strychnine?

I was thinking more "Frame them for embezzlement."

Sounds exhausting.

But satisfying!

Henners91 wrote:Why should you 'ignore' parts of the Bible?

Generally speaking, the idea is that the old testament and the new testament essentially refer to different covenants with god-- the old testament being the Old Covenant, while the new testament is the New Covenant, and overrides the old. Thus the core message of Christianity is usually placed to be in the new testament section.

Henners91 wrote:Why should you 'ignore' parts of the Bible? If you actually consider those parts, you might notice that it's a pretty horrible book in places and not something to base morality on in the 21st Century.

A lot of people find quite a lot of meaningful and wonderful stuff in it; enough to support a functional and lovely system of worship and morality. There's also a lot of stuff in the Bible that's not so nice, and which has been used over the centuries to justify a lot of barbarity and bigotry. Christians can and do evaluate for themselves what parts of the Bible they will emphasize or focus on in their own lives, and most of them do that just fine.

As adults we are each responsible for our own system of ethics and morals, and for how we treat one another. Each of us develops his own code or modifies one we have been taught or studied on our own. Christianity is a source like others, and one with a long history and rich traditions, which give a lot of people a sense of continuity- Of being grounded in history; part of a living tradition which connects them to the past and to what has been (for the most part, by most folks' lights) an embodiment of the better impulses and noble, charitable feelings of humanity. Of course there are a lot of other darker things associated with any powerful institution, and a lot of nastiness that's been perpetrated in its name, but that doesn't mean the whole thing should be discarded.

There's actually rather a long tradition of noted thinkers taking the parts of the Bible they find "sublime and benevolent", and disregarding the parts they do not.

Ah, here it is, found it.

http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/Conclusions.php

For those still concerned at the fact that the modern world utterly ignores so many of the obscure rules in the Bible, consider a final result of translation. English-speaking Christians universally call the two major sections of the Bible the Old Testament and the New Testament. There is, however, better terminology for these two: the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Though they (and we) routinely broke it, the Israelites began with a covenant with God: Canaan from the Nile to the Euphrates would belong to them if they would follow God’s Law. Part of the basic thesis of Christianity is that the sacrifice of Jesus has fundamentally altered this relationship between mankind and God. Reflecting the change clearly by viewing the non-Hebraic part of the Bible as a New Covenant might help focus attention more on the love that the message of Jesus centers on rather than rituals which helped distinguish the Hebrews from the non-Hebrews among whom they lived – but which the Bible ceaselessly points out had not successfully caused people to live in the faith to which God calls them.

As Mannahnin says, it's up to each individual person what they believe, especially on matters of faith.

Really sad stuff, and i do agree with the previous comments of schools don't care. they're too careful, too afraid of reprisal in some form.

On the other hand, that pastor, too far, and as always, one insensitive nut job should not set the standard for all in the faith.

Back on topic though, the victim has a right, even a responsibility to let people who will listen know or take the matters into their own hands if things become physical. On the other side of the fence though, some of these kids may be going through puberty and not to speak badly of the dead, but killing yourself is pretty stupid, and in some cases , sympathy for the victim can be hard to come by, not that the aggressor is exhonerated from what he's done though.

asimo77 wrote:The whole "man up, deal with it, that's just life" arguments have always seemed strange to me. The deviant behaviour would be the bully's not the victim's is it not? Seems odd to request the victim to change their behaviour to comply with their tormentors, rather than demand the aggressor to stop being a bully.

I'm so sick to hear the arguements that favors bullyism. it's simply inhumane! it is like you say Gangsterism is a good thing. it's like to say, Slavery is okay. and 'Massacre is nessessary to keep peace and order'

asimo77 wrote:The whole "man up, deal with it, that's just life" arguments have always seemed strange to me. The deviant behaviour would be the bully's not the victim's is it not? Seems odd to request the victim to change their behaviour to comply with their tormentors, rather than demand the aggressor to stop being a bully.

It's like this: Someone is doing something wrong, perhaps even several someones. Correcting an inappropriate behaviour is time consuming and resource intensive, to do it correctly. The system does not have the resources, or worse yet, the system is too indifferent to utilize those resources toward correcting the behaviour.

Now, consider this: You're the only one getting disadvantaged by the someone doing something wrong. You can either stamp your feet until you get the system to change (if they ever will), or you can do whatever it takes to overcome your disadvantage on your own. Which one requires the least external cooperation? Which one is the most likely to happen?


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Note: I'm not saying this is how life should be. It sucks. Totally. It's just an analysis of how life is.

Lone Cat wrote:I'm so sick to hear the arguements that favors bullyism. it's simply inhumane!

I think you'll find that bullying is part of human nature. In fact, it's not just humans, it's most social mammals, and this is why you cannot simply make a rule that says 'don't bully'. Claiming that bullying is inhmane either shows a lack of understanding of human nature, or a lack of understanding that the root of humane is human.

Social animals need hierarchies. Bullying is a more primal way of establishing a hierarchy among adolescents. As we get older, we get past the whole 'who is physically stronger' and establish our hierarchies around things like who has a bigger paycheck, who has better thoughts, or who has been promoted the most. But for most adolescents, hierarchies are established by various types of bullying, either physical or verbal. Sometimes they're guided by adults, as you'll find in sports (the 'best' player is atop a hierarchy, for example), but what is generally referred to as bullying is really just a form of establishing dominance and ones place within the society.

Those who are bullied are perceived as being weak in some way. It may be because they're deliberately attempting to avoid the societal norms, it may be because they act overly submissive and don't stand up for themselves. Whatever the reason, they get bullied because the bullys want to put on a show of dominance to raise their standing in the hierarchy.

You can see the same behaviours in adolescent dogs. And, like with dogs, the best solution is to allow the "bullied" party figure their own way out of it. A dog that is overly protected by its owner doesn't learn to stand up for itself, and will exhibit problem behaviours when meeting other dogs for most of its life. A dog that is allowed to figure it out for themselves is going to learn the tools that will help it avoid problems as an adult dog, and will be a happier healthier dog because it will have gained confidence in itself.

A kid who constantly has to appeal to authority figures - figures who will not always be present - to avoid being bullied is not going to learn to stand up for himself. He's not going to learn any conflict resolution skills. He's never going to get the self-confidence that will result in him being a happy, healthy member of society. (And, this is a lesson that comes up over and over and over in movies. Consider Back to the Future, for example).

This really isn't "pro-bullying" - it's pro-reality. You cannot get rid of bullying, because it is part of being a social mammal, and it's a natural stage that adolescents go through. Encouraging draconian laws with harsh consequences for bullying won't get rid of bullying, it will just put the bullys into 'the system', and prevent the bullied from learning to stand up for themselves.

This is why bullies will always exist:

(NSFW due to man wearing diapers, and all other kinds of shenanigans)
http://www.sonichu.com/cwcki/Chris

Please spoiler that, that comic is NSFW. As is that page.

I wish I was joking.

Redbeard wrote:I think you'll find that bullying is part of human nature. In fact, it's not just humans, it's most social mammals, and this is why you cannot simply make a rule that says 'don't bully'. Claiming that bullying is inhmane either shows a lack of understanding of human nature, or a lack of understanding that the root of humane is human.

The first definition given by most dictionaries for humane is something along the lines of:

"Having or showing compassion or benevolence."

Thus, bullying is inhumane by that definition. This is also the most commonly used definition and makes your entire post look rather pedantic at best, and nonsensical at worst.

From dictionary.reference.com:

Word Origin & History:
humane
mid-15c., variant of human, used interchangeably with it until early 18c., when it began to be a distinct word with sense of "having qualities befitting human beings."

I think this also applies to your next post as well

Melissia wrote:[...] and makes your entire post look rather pedantic[...]

Redbeard wrote:Claiming that bullying is inhmane either shows a lack of understanding of human nature, or a lack of understanding that the root of humane is human.

The fact that "humane" stems from "human" isn't relevant, as the word's meaning is not "Of, or pertaining to, humans." Humane actions are those that are compassionate, or noble, and the term essentially denotes the "higher" aspects of human tendencies. To put it bluntly, an action can be taken by a human (say, torture) and still be inhumane.

Redbeard wrote:
This really isn't "pro-bullying" - it's pro-reality. You cannot get rid of bullying, because it is part of being a social mammal, and it's a natural stage that adolescents go through. Encouraging draconian laws with harsh consequences for bullying won't get rid of bullying, it will just put the bullys into 'the system', and prevent the bullied from learning to stand up for themselves.

Learning to appeal to mechanisms of authority, be they formal or informal, is part of standing up for yourself. Indeed, once you move past the "I can kick your ass!" phase, its pretty much the only way to stand up for yourself without serious repercussions.

Redbeard wrote:

From dictionary.reference.com:

Word Origin & History:
humane
mid-15c., variant of human, used interchangeably with it until early 18c., when it began to be a distinct word with sense of "having qualities befitting human beings."

Last I checked, it was 2012.

Redbeard wrote:

Lone Cat wrote:I'm so sick to hear the arguements that favors bullyism. it's simply inhumane!

I think you'll find that bullying is part of human nature. In fact, it's not just humans, it's most social mammal.

A kid who constantly has to appeal to authority figures - figures who will not always be present - to avoid being bullied is not going to learn to stand up for himself. He's not going to learn any conflict resolution skills. He's never going to get the self-confidence that will result in him being a happy, healthy member of society. (And, this is a lesson that comes up over and over and over in movies. Consider Back to the Future, for example).

This really isn't "pro-bullying" - it's pro-reality. You cannot get rid of bullying, because it is part of being a social mammal, and it's a natural stage that adolescents go through. Encouraging draconian laws with harsh consequences for bullying won't get rid of bullying, it will just put the bullys into 'the system', and prevent the bullied from learning to stand up for themselves.

So you're now being an advocate to gangsters to extort anyone at will? and and advocate to 'would-be' gangsters?
the 'nature' you quotes here is a clear advocacy to a villanity of gangsterism. which bullyist is likely to become.
If you say. "Anti-bullyism" crusade ruins humanity. what will it be if a victim develops 'countermeasure' through bloodsheds?
if you say any school disciplines to preventt bullyism is a waste. you are saying that school shooting as an act of revenge against bullyist is acceptable.

Discuss this with educational experts. and you'll feel that "Keep it Natural" mindset is a villanity.
You need a debate with those experts who conducts various researches on bullyism and you will see the distinctions between 'Human' and other 'Social mammals'

dogma wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Claiming that bullying is inhmane either shows a lack of understanding of human nature, or a lack of understanding that the root of humane is human.

The fact that "humane" stems from "human" isn't relevant, as the word's meaning is not "Of, or pertaining to, humans." Humane actions are those that are compassionate, or noble, and the term essentially denotes the "higher" aspects of human tendencies. To put it bluntly, an action can be taken by a human (say, torture) and still be inhumane.

Yeh! That's EXACTLY what distincts human and arrays of social mammals

L.

It's also in human male's nature to copulate with every attractive female they encounter. Does this mean rape is justifiable as a means of spreading their dominant seed and strengthening the human race?

dogma wrote:
Learning to appeal to mechanisms of authority, be they formal or informal, is part of standing up for yourself. Indeed, once you move past the "I can kick your ass!" phase, its pretty much the only way to stand up for yourself without serious repercussions.

I supposed you have never needed to negotiate a salary, or a raise? Did you run to the cops and say, I'm not being paid enough, can you talk to my boss for me?

Standing up for yourself, as an adult, has very little to do with appealing to authority.

Amaya wrote:It's also in human male's nature to copulate with every attractive female they encounter. Does this mean rape is justifiable as a means of spreading their dominant seed and strengthening the human race?

While I disagree with your premise, I find your conclusion to be culturally biased towards a modern western culture. There have been successful human cultures in which rape has played a significant role, and they seem to have done okay. The Mongolian culture at the time of Genghis Khan features quite a lot of raiding the neighboring tribes to steal their women. They established the largest empire the world had seen, and their influences to civilization deemed so significant that Time's Man of the Millennium was Genghis Khan, who it is known engaged in the wife-stealing that was accepted in their culture.