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yakface wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:
Should you ask me before hand to have a game with fully open lists I would, as per p. 118 exercise my prerogative and, agree to it. That's just me though

Are you coming to this event? It would be great to see you, remember the store moved locations!

As of right now, I am planning on attending (gotta get my crap together though).

Where did it move to and when did this happen? I'll have to check the website!

Awesome. http://gameempirepasadena.com/about-TheBigMove.php

They moved several months ago, just 3-4 blocks west. Huge, amazing new store. It is easily 3x the size of the previous store. Massive gaming space.

The Flying MC issue is, along with units of characters, one of the elements of this edition that is a problem. Either solution is sub-optimal. Either:

1. Grounded replaces Swooping when it occurs. This 'makes more sense', but it is not necessarily RAW, depending on your reading. It also adds the liability to the Flying MC that it can be shot easier.

2. Grounded is a 'once each time' effect, which may be more in line with RAW (again, depending on your reading), but doesn't make a lot of sense since the model is then somehow Swooping in the air while having simultaneously crashed to the ground, and adds the liability of the Flying MC having to take multiple Grounded tests per turn, creating the potential for it to take any number of Lascannon hits in addition to any other shots it takes.

I'm not saying that Grounded = Gliding. I'm saying that Grounded is its own state that the model can be in, which is unique and replaces Swooping. When Grounded is applied, Swooping no longer applies. As far as dive goes, I consider that a state the model can be in, the difference being that a model can be diving concurrently with Swooping and follow the rules for both.

Arbitrary? Maybe. It's the solution I'm happiest with, given the perceived ambiguity. All of this aside, we're talking about like five models in the game that this whole discussion affects, and one of them doesn't even exist yet!

If I were to take a strict RAW stance on everything in the book, then the tournament would be a nightmare. Not only would there be the issue with players placing terrain before each game (landmine), there's placing objectives after picking table sides (landmine), and the whole argument about lists is out the window, since, by RAW, you should let your opponent look at your list after the game, make clear which squads (just squads, not units or characters) are embarked where, and players should agree whether or not to look at lists during the game, so there's no possibility of seeing the list before the game anyway, and lots of disagreements to arbitrate about looking at lists (BOOM! It's a Grot's Life! ).

Speaking of lists: You must explain which units are embarked in which transports, and since most units are unique in some way you must be clear about distinguishing those units as well. This means that you can't say "A Character" if it's Mephiston. As for verifying lists during the game, Once your opponent uses an element of their army that is not WYSIWYG (like, when a Runepriest hits your Grounded Harpy with Jaws and it falls into the earth), you can look at their list to make sure the RP has Jaws like your opponent says.

I've watched more tournament games than should be healthy and most players might, at most, glance over their opponent's list once before deployment, and often start putting models out with no more knowledge than what army the other guy is playing. Once I start running Warmachine-style two-list tournaments, then there'll be an obvious necessity for looking at lists beforehand so you can choose which one of yours to run.

I'm going to try it tomorrow. If I have rampant cheating and a line of players waiting to lodge complaints against their opponents for misrepresenting their armies and lists, then I won't be doing it again.

Good luck all.

26 players for the event! Round one is drawing to a close now, as I said to the gathered throng at the beginning of the event, I don't think there's any woodwork left, with how many people came out of the woodwork!

This is a really good sign, when the 4th-5th switch happened, the mood was decidedly less enthusiastic. There's a field full of lots of guys I haven't seen in a while, and a lot of crazy armies are on the field!

I think we're just missing Darrian from the grand ole gang.

*edit - Players and army lists

Ismael C. - Blood Ravens
Overwatch from http://www.captureandcontrol.com - Grey Knights
Chris A. - Grey Knights
Chris H. - Dark Angels
Anthony G (from http://www.turn7wargaming.com) -Tyranids
Evan B - Chaos Marines (Aegis Defense Line)
Ken K. - Imperial Guard / Black Templars (Imperialars)
Scott E. - Imperial Guard
Yakface - Tau / Orks (Torks)
Andrew W. - Imperial Fists (all Bikes!!!)
Chris M. - Necrons
Andy V. - Grey Knights
Steve M. - Tyranids
Blackmoor - Eldar / Dark Eldar (Deldar)
Scott W. - Necrons
Dean H. - Tyranids
Ethan S. - Orks
Andrew H. - Orks
Keith M. - Orks (Aegis Defense Line)
Bruce M. - Tau
Casey H. - Chaos Marines / Tau (Bastion) (Tauos)
Louie E. - Eldar
Carlos C. - Space Wolves
Scott C. - Tau / Eldar (Taudar)
Chris T. - Dark Eldar
Charlie N. - Space Wolves

So five armies with allies, three with fortifications.

Awesome turn out! I got to play yakface round 3, first time we've actually gotten paired together, it was a great game.

It really helped me to iron out what I like and don't like in competitive 6th ed 40k. Still don't like closed army lists , I don't like placing objectives after deployment sides have been chosen , but I like all the rest. All my games went fast too which was nice, playing a 19 model Draigowing army probably helped.

Look out, sir...

Results????

Andy V. - Overall
Allan/Blackmoor for accomplishing the most 6e secondary objectives (9 for 9) - - a 6e tourney specific prize
Best paint - Louie's eldar (looked great!)
Andrew W. for being the first to blow up a bastion (my bastion, BTW).
Casey H. (me) for Best Sportsman.
- - I guess I took it rather well when my bastion was blown up, *twice*.

Thanks for running this event, it was a blast as usual. In terms of RTT TO's you take the cake for sure.

Realized as I was driving out of the parking lot that in all three of my games we never rolled once for mysterious objectives...oops,

2-1 with the nids, not a bad day at all. Thanks to my opponents, they were all great!

I forgot Mysterious Objectives in all of my games as well, and I forgot to roll for night fight before the game in round 2 and forgot to roll for night fight on turns 5+ in round 3.


Definitely not firing on full rules cylinders for 6th edition just yet!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oh, and I told a few people during the tournament (including Overwatch during our game, sorry!) that there is range sniping in 6th edition, which actually looking closely at the rules now seems to be incorrect.

Range is only checked when initially firing with the unit, and as long as you're within range of at least one visible model in the target unit then the firing model is considered to be in range and can fire.

When it gets to wound allocation, only models in the target unit that are completely out of LOS of all firing models are immune to being casualties...range is actually not a limiting factor in casualty removal!


Whoops!

Great tourney, thanks Travis for running it. As far as I could tell it went off without a hitch. The other two guys I dragged along had a great time as well.

Any idea what point level the next tourney will be?

Also, damn you for giving me another scout bike!

yakface wrote:
I forgot Mysterious Objectives in all of my games as well, and I forgot to roll for night fight before the game in round 2 and forgot to roll for night fight on turns 5+ in round 3.


Definitely not firing on full rules cylinders for 6th edition just yet!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oh, and I told a few people during the tournament (including Overwatch during our game, sorry!) that there is range sniping in 6th edition, which actually looking closely at the rules now seems to be incorrect.

Range is only checked when initially firing with the unit, and as long as you're within range of at least one visible model in the target unit then the firing model is considered to be in range and can fire.

When it gets to wound allocation, only models in the target unit that are completely out of LOS of all firing models are immune to being casualties...range is actually not a limiting factor in casualty removal!


Whoops!

No worries. It's a new rule set we are bound to do some stuff wrong!

Thanks everyone! I'm glad it was a good time and everyone had fun; that's the measure of an event for me.

I also gave out a dual prize to Steve and Carlos for the Best Duel - A Swarmlord fighting a Wolf Guard Battle Leader, in a challenge, last turn of the game, both were the army Warlord, both had rolled +1 for killing the enemy Warlord trait, Purge the Alien Mission! It seemed fittingly epic. And one to Chris for coming up with the most brain-steaming rules Q That I had not previously addressed in a game (whip-coils/wargear that lowers your initiative vs. pile in at multiple steps, thence into madness).

Lot of good feedback from the event and I learned a lot as well. I'll be posting my after-action thoughts here a little later today (once I finish writing them), and will most likely be expanding them into a piece for CNC later.

Thanks again to everyone for coming out and making it a great event!

I apologize if this was said earlier, but I'm stuck browzing on my phone, which is a pain.

With that said, I was wondering how the tournament handled terrain placement and fortifications? Thanks!

Ok, here's my after-action take:

Easy Stuff:

- Mysterious Objectives - Many forgot this anyway, since it was the first event of the edition. No one who used them voiced any concerns about them. So, most likely will stay in.
- Fortifications - Largely a non-issue, it came up once or twice during the day about placement and adjusting the pre-set terrain to accomodate a player's preference, but in general guys just set them out like any other part of the army. In.
- Warlord Traits - We did random throughout the day; pick a chart each game and roll on it. Seemed like a broad spread of useful and useless overall, so this will stay in, though it has a lot of potential for adjustment.
- Allies - Didn't dominate with crazy combos, but were interesting and fun to watch. In, obviously. Maybe something will be found that shatters the sky, but until then, in without qualifier.

Contentious Stuff:

- Objective placement - Placing objectives after seeing deployment is silly, as expected. The viewpoint that there's enough other ways to score points in most missions that it won't matter as much doesn't bear out. Someone can still get a super advantageous position and the odd objectives, and squirrel away the primary victory condition from their opponent. Once we see some more codexes, with perhaps more flying transports / outflank / mobility, it might be revisited, but for now, out.

The idea of odd objectives being placed in the no-man's land between deployment zones has been discussed in this thread and that will be in the next event. Yak and I spoke afterward about the Scouring mission as well, and I think I'm getting it mostly correct that we discussed a modification in which each player gets to place a 2 and a 3 value objective in their deployment zone, and the 1 and 4 must be placed in no-man's land, to guard against one player ending up with 3-3-4 objectives all along the back of his deployment zone. I'll have to test that one out a few times, but it seems legit.

- Open vs. closed lists - For a variety of reasons, we tried closed lists a'la WHFB. It was largely a non-issue, mostly because it's just a habit of tournament players to be open about their lists at the beginning of the game. The zeitgeist is open lists, and it would take a sea change to alter that norm in any significant way. Closed lists have a place in league and campaign play, not in tournaments. This, of course, is exactly what I expected to be the case, but it was worth a shot.

- The Flying MC conundrum - Yes, it meant that a Harpy died at least one ignominious death, but until GW says one way or t'other, I'm sticking to my ruling.

- Units of Characters - Didn't make a big splash... Overwatch's Paladin deathstar didn't dominate, but I do think it's an element of the game that is off. My knee-jerk solution would be that such units must nominate one model to be the 'champion' or somesuch, and he is the character in the unit for the duration of the game. That being said, while it may be wonky, it is an are of the rules that is pretty clear, so I'm not quite sure how to treat it just yet.

- Whip coils vs. Pile in - This is a rules black hole much like the Flying MC problem. As I see it, it has to be treated as such: each initiative step is locked as soon as it is determined which models are going to act during the step. All those models pile-in, then make their attacks. Models that move into base contact with whip coils (or the like) still make their attacks, and will suffer the reduction in subsequent turns. Yes, this de-values such pieces of wargear as whip coils in this circumstance, but, like the Flying MC issue, the alternative is similarly sub-optimal and creates greater issues. With the above ruling, a canny player can 'duck' whip coils for a round of CC with excellent positioning, assuming that initiative is fluid and that a model who moves into base contact with a model with whip coils immediately drops to I1, creates that problem that they potentially pile in twice (once at their normal I, once more at I1), and allows the player in control of the model with whip coils to deny attacks completely with canny play and wound allocation. Libro with a force sword piles in at I5 and hits a model with whip coils, dropping to I1 and losing his attacks at I5. Then at the I4 step, the Necron player takes a wound on the model in base with the Libro. Libro's I jumps back to 5, but since that step has already passed, no attacks for you!

Either solution is not firmly grounded in the rules in my view, hence black hole. I'm happiest with the ruling above (which I went with during the event when it came up), since, while it may lessen the effect of the whip coils somewhat, it doesn't grant a player the chance to completely strip a model of their attacks.

That's all I've got, thanks again to everyone for coming, and stay tuned for the next one!

I think the unit of Characters idea served to make Paladins and Nob bikerz remain good as deathstar units. Neither unit is insanely OP, both units are slightly more survivable with a 5+ FNP against anything not double toughness, neither unit is significantly better than before. The Character Unit idea certainly gives a boost to Loganwing armies, by which I mean it makes Space Wolf Terminators not a joke anymore!

Great time overall. Still 1500 for the next one right?

OverwatchCNC wrote:I think the unit of Characters idea served to make Paladins and Nob bikerz remain good as deathstar units. Neither unit is insanely OP, both units are slightly more survivable with a 5+ FNP against anything not double toughness, neither unit is significantly better than before. The Character Unit idea certainly gives a boost to Loganwing armies, by which I mean it makes Space Wolf Terminators not a joke anymore!

Great time overall. Still 1500 for the next one right?

I'm not the greatest of players, but I have not been able to get my Loganwing Terminator army to be competitive at all.

The only army I have beaten with them were a drop pod army played by a really bad player and Deathwing, against several players :( Here's hoping this character thing stays and works....

I don't know how viable an all terminator build is for SW but having a single SW terminator squad rolling with Logan would be killer in games nearer the 1850 level.

Yeah, that's something I've been looking at. Logan in a squad of termies is just insanely scary now. A few shields and then all claws or axes and your in business.

Draigo is actually not as killy of a character in the big leagues due to his non-AP2 weaponry. Means Abaddon, Logan, Calgar in TA, Mephiston, & Sanguinor will eat him for lunch.

Hulksmash wrote:Yeah, that's something I've been looking at. Logan in a squad of termies is just insanely scary now. A few shields and then all claws or axes and your in business.

Draigo is actually not as killy of a character in the big leagues due to his non-AP2 weaponry. Means Abaddon, Logan, Calgar in TA, Mephiston, & Sanguinor will eat him for lunch.

Abby's not AP2 either....neither is Mephiston or Sanquinor I thought?

Hulksmash is referring to their armor. Draigo will be whapping them with AP3 wounds, and they'll be laughing as they roll 2+ for saves.

disdainful wrote:Ok, here's my after-action take:
- Units of Characters - Didn't make a big splash... Overwatch's Paladin deathstar didn't dominate, but I do think it's an element of the game that is off. My knee-jerk solution would be that such units must nominate one model to be the 'champion' or somesuch, and he is the character in the unit for the duration of the game. That being said, while it may be wonky, it is an are of the rules that is pretty clear, so I'm not quite sure how to treat it just yet.

OK, I may be biased in this instance but changing this rule till there is a FAQ seems like it would change list building in 6th tremendously. I'm just afraid changes like this (not a ruling but an actual change) is what will as bloggers have been saying "kill tournaments in 6th edition". I know its a harsh thing to say but it will. When every tournament has different house rules to fix "what wrong in 6th" there will be no standard of rules and everything will go to chaos (and not in a cool deamon/CSM way).

Brothererekose wrote:Hulksmash is referring to their armor. Draigo will be whapping them with AP3 wounds, and they'll be laughing as they roll 2+ for saves.

And.....they'll be doing the same thing to him.......

Why is he (Draigo) going to get beat by those guys now?

That's a good point. I went kinda braindead on their weapons. So except for Dante (if it's an axe), Marneus, Lysander & Grimnar with their AP2 goodness most major hitters will be slap fighting.

Oh, and Karandras is gonna eat Draigo now this makes me chuckle

Looks like characters in Terminator/Artificer armor w/ap2 weapons are going to be killing machines in 6th. I'm thinking a power sword & power axe so you can pick which one to use. Or just stick to the fist/hammer

Thats one thing thats going to make Loganwing type units scary. At least until GW FAQs it to let the special characters use the sub types, to appease the marine whining like they always do.

MY main concern with the character units it:

A) LOS does not require assigning wounds so that it is killing whole models, so any unit with an IC on point can route the wounds in a manner where no one dies until every model in the unit has already sustained all but one of its wounds. And for extra funsies, the multiwound character units can let the IC dive in the way on a 4+ if they get precission shot or flanked.

B) Precission shot turns all character units into assasins. Good luck keeping your important single model alive when a Nob unit with TL Big Shootas or Loganwing Storm Bolter fest rains down on it, especially if the desired target is not a character, like is common in a nmber of xenos armies.

The one allies trick I am curious if anyone tried is using the Battle Brothers rule with guard to make the super blobs. Imagine taking a Wolf Priest with Stealth and sticking him in a blob unit (dump the Commisars) to convey Counter Attack, ATSKNF, Preffered Enemy, and Stealth to a blob sitting behind an Ageis Defense line. Who cares if they are stubborn with ATSKNF in play and the Wolf Priest in terminator armor. You can even put another blob right next to it with a Runepriest and your cost of entry is a unit of Grey Hunters you can cram into a Vendetta. That (and certain ICs) is how I see the allies rules being broken. Well, that and VG Vets being air dropped by Vendettas....

Phazael wrote:Thats one thing thats going to make Loganwing type units scary. At least until GW FAQs it to let the special characters use the sub types, to appease the marine whining like they always do.

MY main concern with the character units it:

A) LOS does not require assigning wounds so that it is killing whole models, so any unit with an IC on point can route the wounds in a manner where no one dies until every model in the unit has already sustained all but one of its wounds. And for extra funsies, the multiwound character units can let the IC dive in the way on a 4+ if they get precission shot or flanked.

B) Precission shot turns all character units into assasins. Good luck keeping your important single model alive when a Nob unit with TL Big Shootas or Loganwing Storm Bolter fest rains down on it, especially if the desired target is not a character, like is common in a nmber of xenos armies.

The one allies trick I am curious if anyone tried is using the Battle Brothers rule with guard to make the super blobs. Imagine taking a Wolf Priest with Stealth and sticking him in a blob unit (dump the Commisars) to convey Counter Attack, ATSKNF, Preffered Enemy, and Stealth to a blob sitting behind an Ageis Defense line. Who cares if they are stubborn with ATSKNF in play and the Wolf Priest in terminator armor. You can even put another blob right next to it with a Runepriest and your cost of entry is a unit of Grey Hunters you can cram into a Vendetta. That (and certain ICs) is how I see the allies rules being broken. Well, that and VG Vets being air dropped by Vendettas....

The Grey Hunters can't jump into the Vendetta. Nor can Vanguards embark in Vendettas. I believe there is a specific restriction about embarking upon allied transports, battle brothers or not.

They can't use dedicated transports, but the non dedicated are fair game, at least for battle brothers.

Phazael wrote:They can't use dedicated transports, but the non dedicated are fair game, at least for battle brothers.

The BRB says "not even battle brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles." I would assume this means ANY transport, dedicated or not.

mortetvie wrote:

Phazael wrote:They can't use dedicated transports, but the non dedicated are fair game, at least for battle brothers.

The BRB says "not even battle brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles." I would assume this means ANY transport, dedicated or not.

Yep. It does not specify dedicated and therefore all transports are off limits.

Hulksmash wrote:That's a good point. I went kinda braindead on their weapons. So except for Dante (if it's an axe), Marneus, Lysander & Grimnar with their AP2 goodness most major hitters will be slap fighting.

Oh, and Karandras is gonna eat Draigo now this makes me chuckle

Looks like characters in Terminator/Artificer armor w/ap2 weapons are going to be killing machines in 6th. I'm thinking a power sword & power axe so you can pick which one to use. Or just stick to the fist/hammer

No worries homie, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything either! And yes, alot of Characters all the sudden became really good choices!