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mortetvie wrote:I suppose I could use a maple bar as a command barge. I could also stick pipe cleaners into donut holes and call them wraiths.


This is my WIP sofar, the bacon strip is supposed to be my Necron lord. What do you think of my color scheme? The blue plate is not part of the model BTW.

I think a Necron Lord would be better represented as a pig in a blanket. Color looks good.

Blegh! I hate maple bars.

DQ'd!

I don't think that was part of "forging the narrative" that they were talking about.

It was forging the narrative of my breakfast invasion. BTW maplebars are probably the quintessential donut IMO and I'm not just saying that because I am Canadian and love maple syrup...oh wait maybe I am.

I might just settle for using nids and proxying this as a Tervigon...French fries will be termagaunts of course and the cheese represents toxin sacs.



SERIOUSLY though, I want your ruling on the army I really AM going to bring (TS with allied demons woohoo I can stop playing my TS as cheaterknights).

Do Thousand Son aspiring sorcerer's only generate one roll on the discipline chart because they can only purchase one power or do they generate 2 because they are mastery level 2? (base 1+1 for mark of Tzeench letting them cast another power).

Also, does a Chaos Sorcerer generate a power for each one purchased or can I buy the 1 compulsory power, buy mark of tzeench (making him mastery 2) and a familiar and get 3 rolls? It's not entirely clear to me though I can see it going either way.

It says in the FAQ, any model with psychic powers can exchange a purchased power for a roll on the available table/s. Seems pretty straightforward.

Yeah, I think the rulebook and FAQs are definitely a bit confusing on the matter although if you read it really carefully the answer is pretty clear.

The big issue is that psychic mastery level = the number of powers a pysker is able to use each turn, not necessarily how many powers they actually have.

The rulebook states that if it isn't specified otherwise that psykers know the # powers equal to their mastery level, but in the case of older codexes (which they pretty much are all now in this regards):

• If a rule states that a psykers can use X number of powers per turn, this is the psykers mastery level.
• When exchanging out core psychic powers for random ones, you roll for each power the psyker knows...if this happens to be more than his mastery level, that's fine. The psyker knows extra powers (and therefore randomly generates them) but can still only cast as many per turn as his mastery level allows.


So a Chaos Sorcerer with a Mark of Tzeentch and a Familiar would still be Mastery Level 2 (as he can use 2 powers a turn) but as he has 3 powers, he would be able to exchange all 3 for rolls on the random psychic power charts.

Yeah thanks guys. I remember reading what Dok pointed out in the Eldar FAQ but I glossed over it in the CSM FAQ, my bad! I was really hoping deep down that I could get 3 rolls for just buying the 1 compulsory power, mark and familiar but nooo, I guess I have to pay for it all =(.

And Tzeench doesn't get access to divination? *grumbles at GW*.

I think I am most mystified with how a fast skimmer moving 42" can be hit just as easily as a Leman Russ going .01"...

mortetvie wrote:Yeah thanks guys. I remember reading what Dok pointed out in the Eldar FAQ but I glossed over it in the CSM FAQ, my bad! I was really hoping deep down that I could get 3 rolls for just buying the 1 compulsory power, mark and familiar but nooo, I guess I have to pay for it all =(.

And Tzeench doesn't get access to divination? *grumbles at GW*.

I think I am most mystified with how a fast skimmer moving 42" can be hit just as easily as a Leman Russ going .01"...

Having been on the receiving end of 2 telepathy powers in different games, I think that it is the best discipline. Especially if you role hallucination as one of your powers. psykotroke grenades, give me hallucination any day!

You still have to roll and get lucky with the powers (though Invisibility and Hallucination are perhaps some of the most game changing powers), I rather fancy gate of infinity from telekinesis (spellcheck almost turned telekinesis into televangelist lol...) and that lore in general seems to have more useful powers no matter what you roll. The Primaris power is ok as well to put units into difficult terrain.

If I play you maybe I will choose telepathy just for you =).

mortetvie wrote:You still have to roll and get lucky with the powers (though Invisibility and Hallucination are perhaps some of the most game changing powers), I rather fancy gate of infinity from telekinesis (spellcheck almost turned telekinesis into televangelist lol...) and that lore in general seems to have more useful powers no matter what you roll. The Primaris power is ok as well to put units into difficult terrain.

If I play you maybe I will choose telepathy just for you =).

I had that power turn off my Draigostar last night for a turn Luckily his 10 man shooty terminator squad needed to roll a 10 through difficult terrain and failed. Otherwise that would have been a lot of dead Paladins who couldn't strike back...

mortetvie wrote:

I think I am most mystified with how a fast skimmer moving 42" can be hit just as easily as a Leman Russ going .01"...

Except Fast Skimmers can always Jink. You get hit as easy but can dodge a few of them.

You can Jink when Zooming as well by using Evade but then you can only Snap Shot back.

(you probably know this, but I just wanted to be sure)

As far as I can tell:

Jink only works against shooting/ram attacks not close combat attacks .

Fast Skimmers cannot zoom/evade, only flyers can and so you hit Fast Skimmers at normal BS regardless of how fast they move.

The bottom line is that fast skimmers are vulnerable in ways that don't make sense. As I previously mentioned, it makes no sense that a tank going 42" is the same to hit as one going .01" =(

mortetvie wrote:As far as I can tell:

Fast Skimmers cannot zoom/evade, only flyers can and so you hit Fast Skimmers at normal BS regardless of how fast they move.

The bottom line is that fast skimmers are vulnerable in ways that don't make sense. As I previously mentioned, it makes no sense that a tank going 42" is the same to hit as one going .01" =(

You are right that speed does not matter on how hard they are to hit but you are wrong that they don't have Jink. PG 83 under Skimmers under Special Rules.

Jink does not give a save vs. close combat you are right. But, if you are going Flat Out with your Skimmers your Jink save improves to a 4+ against shooting.

2 days away and working on some conversions. I hope I can get done in time.

Blackmoor wrote:2 days away and working on some conversions. I hope I can get done in time.

It would be awesome to have you. Are you going to go back to GK or are you still trying to get the Foot Dark Eldar to work?

BladeWalker wrote:

mortetvie wrote:As far as I can tell:

Fast Skimmers cannot zoom/evade, only flyers can and so you hit Fast Skimmers at normal BS regardless of how fast they move.

The bottom line is that fast skimmers are vulnerable in ways that don't make sense. As I previously mentioned, it makes no sense that a tank going 42" is the same to hit as one going .01" =(

You are right that speed does not matter on how hard they are to hit but you are wrong that they don't have Jink. PG 83 under Skimmers under Special Rules.

Jink does not give a save vs. close combat you are right. But, if you are going Flat Out with your Skimmers your Jink save improves to a 4+ against shooting.

I think we are going in circles saying the same thing, we are on the same page... I never said they don't have jink I only said that jink can only be used against shooting/ram rolls which is what you just said, lol.

The only thing I specifically said fast skimmers don't have is the ability to zoom and evade which is different from jink.

LOL got it. Just wanted to make sure you were getting all your rolls. Some of that stuff is hiding!

I do agree it should be a bit more difficult to land a punch on a Fast Skimmer going Flat Out. :-)

Sadly, even after all that delicious talk of proxies, I won't be able to make it this Saturday. Hope everyone that goes has a good time and I look forward to hearing how it went and checking out battle reports.

So... Closed or open army lists for this, and future, tournaments?

Page 118 "A Note on Secrecy."

Beat me to it!

We will be playing this weekend with closed lists, as per the note on secrecy referenced above. This basically means that the only thing you are compelled to tell your opponent about your list during the game is what units are embarked on which transports.

This, of course, means that WYSIWYG is now a hard-and-fast rule, more so than before; if it's not on the model, they aren't carrying it. Obviously, intangible elements like psychic powers can't be modeled on, but things like combi-plasmas and appropriate heavy weapon upgrades can and must. Further, it means that models must be fully built to represent what it is, so no more unarmed Valkyire-chassis flying around.

The rule of Cool still applies, though you are now beholden to fully explaining everything beforehand.

This leaves Mysterious Objectives as the last element I'm uncertain of including.... I'm of the mind that I should just go whole hog and do it, since we're already doing most everything else from 6th unmodified for 'test-run' purposes.

Getting close now... got another small one in on Tuesday, puts me at 7-2-1 for 6th. Orks ftw!

I just wanted to give a heads up that myself and two others will be going to the tournament.

Also which way are you going to play the FMC grounded test argument?

A summary of this discussion can be found in YMDC.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/460633.page

Essentially either a failed grounding test cause the model to stop counting as swooping and therefore can be hit on normal BS.

Or a failed grounding test just has the listed effects and a model can be subject to multiple failed grounding tests per turn.

I can see it being played either way. I just would like to know how you are feeling about it before I pick which army I am bringing Saturday.

You better make sure all those necron players are modelling their crypteks right. And all those GKs have properly modeled grenades. And that all those Tyranids have the correct biomorphs displayed...

What I'm saying is that secret lists are terrible. If I wanted to play a game where I move my pieces into random surprises hoping I don't get blown up, I would play stratego.

But then again, I can't make this one, so have fun!

disdainful wrote:Beat me to it!

We will be playing this weekend with closed lists, as per the note on secrecy referenced above. This basically means that the only thing you are compelled to tell your opponent about your list during the game is what units are embarked on which transports.

This, of course, means that WYSIWYG is now a hard-and-fast rule, more so than before; if it's not on the model, they aren't carrying it. Obviously, intangible elements like psychic powers can't be modeled on, but things like combi-plasmas and appropriate heavy weapon upgrades can and must. Further, it means that models must be fully built to represent what it is, so no more unarmed Valkyire-chassis flying around.

The rule of Cool still applies, though you are now beholden to fully explaining everything beforehand.

This leaves Mysterious Objectives as the last element I'm uncertain of including.... I'm of the mind that I should just go whole hog and do it, since we're already doing most everything else from 6th unmodified for 'test-run' purposes.

Getting close now... got another small one in on Tuesday, puts me at 7-2-1 for 6th. Orks ftw!

Wha?

The note on secrecy clearly specifies that you can agree to see each others' list before the game...so its an option, and that's precisely the kind of thing that a tournament can and should do (require openness).

List secrecy only leads to one possible thing in tournaments and that is a giant sh**storm.

So please tell me what happens if I think my opponent is playing with too many points and then at the end of the game I check his list and find out he had the wrong models on the table? Do I win the game?

Maybe I'll just show up and play my first game with a 2,000 point army, it will be awesome...anything that dies I'll put back in my miniature case and then deny I ever had it on the table if challenged after the game is over.

What a great idea this is!

3 things.

1. I think random objectives are good. They help to balance out the current power curve that is balanced towards flyers, they provide armies without skyfire a chance to get some units the rule.

2. As far as closed lists go the brb says to agree prior to the match. If I insist on having open lists and my opponent refuses what happens? Neither of us is right or wrong per the rules, and we are both well within our rights to want to play it either way. In a normal, non-tournament game, we could simply agree to disagree and not play one another but that isn't the case here. I don't think closed lists work for tournaments.

3. I love the hard WYSIWYG rule. I get tired of having to constantly ask where the guns on DE flyers are or trying to approximate LoS for weapons that are missing. But what do we do about things like Grenades or Crypteks that are either too small (grenades) to see effectively, or there are no differentiated models (crypteks) and therefore all look the same?

Looks like I need to swap out my Trygon tails to get them WYSIWYG.

As for closed lists, I have not found there to be a problem playing fantasy with closed lists, even in tournaments. I think in fantasy there is even more chances for closed list problems (banner and items that never get modeled like scrolls and potions), but everyone seems to put the best bit forward and there are not issues.

The only downside I see comes from having to change how one hobbies things. For example If I have a carnifex who has green goo dripping from his mouth is that a representation of poison or is it just modeled to look like he has saliva dripping? I think that could be where issues come up.

L'Etat C'Est Moi wrote:Looks like I need to swap out my Trygon tails to get them WYSIWYG.

As for closed lists, I have not found there to be a problem playing fantasy with closed lists, even in tournaments. I think in fantasy there is even more chances for closed list problems (banner and items that never get modeled like scrolls and potions), but everyone seems to put the best bit forward and there are not issues.

The only downside I see comes from having to change how one hobbies things. For example If I have a carnifex who has green goo dripping from his mouth is that a representation of poison or is it just modeled to look like he has saliva dripping? I think that could be where issues come up.

Closed lists are not a problem as long as everyone is a complete gentleman and does not take advantage of the rule.

So basically they completely hinge on the good graces of all your players. It only takes one bad apple to completely ruin the whole thing and when its bad, its really bad because the problems tend to only be definitely 'caught' once the games have already finished, at which point it becomes a he said/he said argument...as opposed to open lists, which an error can be caught mid-game and a fix applied at that point which hopefully still allows players to finish their games feeling okay.


Have you guys never been in a game where an opponent has accidentally screwed something up in their army, you think it looks odd, so you ask to see their list and point out the issue?

I mean, even if someone isn't trying to purposely screw people over this rule is a terrible idea...simple mistakes are less likely to get caught and instead turn a small gaffe into a giant bunch of hurt feelings after the game is over.

disdainful wrote:We will be playing this weekend with closed lists, as per the note on secrecy referenced above. This basically means that the only thing you are compelled to tell your opponent about your list during the game is what units are embarked on which transports.

Heh.

I felt like a middle schooler tossing a stink bomb into the auditorium right as the doors closed for an assembly on this one.

First though, the easy(ish) one. I checked the Flying MC thread about the grounding issue. Wow, did that one get hot quick! In my view, it's not quite so black and white as some would make it out to be. As I see it, it's a question of modes and states. Flying MCs can choose to either Swoop or Glide as their movement mode, and risk acquiring the Grounded state if hit by enemy fire. The question in my mind is whether or not the Grounded state can be applied concurrently with the Swooping mode, or if it replaces it entirely? I would not be surprised to see this get FAQ'd (and I would not be surprised to see it break it either way!), but in the interim, at my events, Grounded replaces Swooping, which means that if a model become Grounded, it is no longer Swooping.

The alternative creates some nonsensical situations where a Flying MC is on the deck but people still can't hit it, and it could potentially have to take multiple Grounded tests over the course of a turn.

And on to the

The intent of this event is not to be a referendum on the edition or its seaworthiness, so to speak. As stated in the initial post, this is going to be a light, not intensely competitive event with the intent of players getting a chance to play games against a wide variety of opposing armies across a variety of terrain in the interest of refining our skills with the rules of the new edition. However, I pointedly understand the concerns a completely closed list format raises.

With that in mind, We will be playing the army lists closed, with the modification that you must make your list available to your opponent to verify elements of your list during the game as or after you have used them, and the list must be made open to your opponent after the game. It's similar to our solution in WHFB. Players must specify which units are embarked in which transports, and this includes being clear about which characters are where by name, if applicable.

For reference, there is no mention at all of showing lists to your opponent before or after the game in 2nd or 3rd; the 4th ed book specifies that players are not normally allowed to look at their opponent's list during the game, including not having to specify about embarked units, but are free to agree otherwise, 5th says you should make your list available to your opponent after the game but you should make it clear which units are embarked where, and that players can agree otherwise and has a parenthetical noting that such an agreement would be the norm in tournaments. 6th says that you should make your list available to your opponent after the game and make it clear what units are embarked where, and says players can agree to look at lists during the game. The tournament proviso is noticeably absent in 6th, which follows with the current viewpoint that GW is specifically de-emphasizing competitive play.

(I have all the books in front of me, the virtues of a nearby used book section! )

The idea of someone bringing extra models or some other shenanigans that are blatantly cheating, it harkens to yakface's 40k Rule #1. Someone can try to cheat like that under any rules format.

With the intent of this event being to learn and test out the various elements of the new system, I'm not particularly worried about how much of the sky is falling just yet. This is my fourth 40k edition switch during my career in gaming and if all of the other changeovers are any indication, it's going to take a year and a few new codexes or so for things to settle down anyway.

I took a look at the Golden Throne GTs take on Mysterious Terrain and I like it a lot. Not enough to put it back in at the eleventh hour, but it will probably pop up in subsequent events.

Finally, Mysterious Objectives are in.

disdainful wrote:
I felt like a middle schooler tossing a stink bomb into the auditorium right as the doors closed for an assembly on this one.

First though, the easy(ish) one. I checked the Flying MC thread about the grounding issue. Wow, did that one get hot quick! In my view, it's not quite so black and white as some would make it out to be. As I see it, it's a question of modes and states. Flying MCs can choose to either Swoop or Glide as their movement mode, and risk acquiring the Grounded state if hit by enemy fire. The question in my mind is whether or not the Grounded state can be applied concurrently with the Swooping mode, or if it replaces it entirely? I would not be surprised to see this get FAQ'd (and I would not be surprised to see it break it either way!), but in the interim, at my events, Grounded replaces Swooping, which means that if a model become Grounded, it is no longer Swooping.

The alternative creates some nonsensical situations where a Flying MC is on the deck but people still can't hit it, and it could potentially have to take multiple Grounded tests over the course of a turn.

I'm assuming that if you're ruling that grounded = switching back to being gliding (essentially) that would mean the restriction on firing snap shots in the next turn for a diving FMC would be removed too? Because if the leap is being made that grounded effectively removes the swooping status, that penalty for diving should go away as well to be fair.

With that in mind, We will be playing the army lists closed, with the modification that you must make your list available to your opponent to verify elements of your list during the game as or after you have used them, and the list must be made open to your opponent after the game. It's similar to our solution in WHFB. Players must specify which units are embarked in which transports, and this includes being clear about which characters are where by name, if applicable.

The idea of someone bringing extra models or some other shenanigans that are blatantly cheating, it harkens to yakface's 40k Rule #1. Someone can try to cheat like that under any rules format.

With the intent of this event being to learn and test out the various elements of the new system, I'm not particularly worried about how much of the sky is falling just yet. This is my fourth 40k edition switch during my career in gaming and if all of the other changeovers are any indication, it's going to take a year and a few new codexes or so for things to settle down anyway.

I don't quite get how having closed lists promotes a fun casual learning event, and actually I think the reverse is probably true, but I'm certainly not going to take my toys to my room and refuse to play because of it.

But what exactly does it mean that its available to verify elements of their army? Can I expect to be able to ask players what their units on the table are equipped with and get answered? Does this apply to things that you wouldn't expect to visually see like selected codex psychic powers, for example?

And if players have to designate what is in reserves and what is arriving in what transport, how vague are they allowed to be? Obviously they have to say what type of vehicle is going into reserve but can they keep the weapon and wargear configurations a secret? Do they just have to say the type of unit it is transporting, thereby allowing them to play a shell game between multiple Rhinos arriving with multiple Tac squads (for example)?

In other words, I normally just ask my opponents to tell me everything about their units as they're putting them on the table or into reserves. What exactly am I allowed to know and ask about and what am I not allowed to ask about and know?

yakface wrote:

disdainful wrote:
I felt like a middle schooler tossing a stink bomb into the auditorium right as the doors closed for an assembly on this one.

First though, the easy(ish) one. I checked the Flying MC thread about the grounding issue. Wow, did that one get hot quick! In my view, it's not quite so black and white as some would make it out to be. As I see it, it's a question of modes and states. Flying MCs can choose to either Swoop or Glide as their movement mode, and risk acquiring the Grounded state if hit by enemy fire. The question in my mind is whether or not the Grounded state can be applied concurrently with the Swooping mode, or if it replaces it entirely? I would not be surprised to see this get FAQ'd (and I would not be surprised to see it break it either way!), but in the interim, at my events, Grounded replaces Swooping, which means that if a model become Grounded, it is no longer Swooping.

The alternative creates some nonsensical situations where a Flying MC is on the deck but people still can't hit it, and it could potentially have to take multiple Grounded tests over the course of a turn.

I'm assuming that if you're ruling that grounded = switching back to being gliding (essentially) that would mean the restriction on firing snap shots in the next turn for a diving FMC would be removed too? Because if the leap is being made that grounded effectively removes the swooping status, that penalty for diving should go away as well to be fair.

With that in mind, We will be playing the army lists closed, with the modification that you must make your list available to your opponent to verify elements of your list during the game as or after you have used them, and the list must be made open to your opponent after the game. It's similar to our solution in WHFB. Players must specify which units are embarked in which transports, and this includes being clear about which characters are where by name, if applicable.

The idea of someone bringing extra models or some other shenanigans that are blatantly cheating, it harkens to yakface's 40k Rule #1. Someone can try to cheat like that under any rules format.

With the intent of this event being to learn and test out the various elements of the new system, I'm not particularly worried about how much of the sky is falling just yet. This is my fourth 40k edition switch during my career in gaming and if all of the other changeovers are any indication, it's going to take a year and a few new codexes or so for things to settle down anyway.

I don't quite get how having closed lists promotes a fun casual learning event, and actually I think the reverse is probably true, but I'm certainly not going to take my toys to my room and refuse to play because of it.

But what exactly does it mean that its available to verify elements of their army? Can I expect to be able to ask players what their units on the table are equipped with and get answered? Does this apply to things that you wouldn't expect to visually see like selected codex psychic powers, for example?

And if players have to designate what is in reserves and what is arriving in what transport, how vague are they allowed to be? Obviously they have to say what type of vehicle is going into reserve but can they keep the weapon and wargear configurations a secret? Do they just have to say the type of unit it is transporting, thereby allowing them to play a shell game between multiple Rhinos arriving with multiple Tac squads (for example)?

In other words, I normally just ask my opponents to tell me everything about their units as they're putting them on the table or into reserves. What exactly am I allowed to know and ask about and what am I not allowed to ask about and know?

Should you ask me before hand to have a game with fully open lists I would, as per p. 118 exercise my prerogative and, agree to it. That's just me though

Are you coming to this event? It would be great to see you, remember the store moved locations!

OverwatchCNC wrote:
Should you ask me before hand to have a game with fully open lists I would, as per p. 118 exercise my prerogative and, agree to it. That's just me though

Are you coming to this event? It would be great to see you, remember the store moved locations!

As of right now, I am planning on attending (gotta get my crap together though).

Where did it move to and when did this happen? I'll have to check the website!