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Jihallah wrote:

Brymm wrote:Seems to be the right place for it and it seems like it should be brought up...

The FAQ seems to state that CSM Daemon Princes with wings are NOT flyers, just Jump Monsterous Creatures. Right. Chaos Daemons Daemon Princes with Flight ARE flying monsterous creatures. Okay.

So, White Dwarf magazine has a battle report between IG/GK and CSM/CD in some big free for all. In the game, the Chaos player takes a Daemon Prince from the Chaos MARINES codex and NO daemon princes from the Daemons book. In the report, he uses the daemon prince in swoop and glide modes and even performs a Vector Strike THEN a Molten Beam.
Two things here: Daemon Princes per the FAQ and BRB are NOT level 2 psykers so could not have nor use Molten Beam... yes? Second, Daemon Princes are not flying monsterous creatures so shouldn't be able to swoop and vector strike... yes?

So what do we have here? Wishful thinking from the White Dwarf staff? Incorrect rules usage on their part? Actual logic being applied? Are we reading the FAQ wrong? What am I missing here? Any help would be appreciated!

With all the different language faqs and contradictions- Im playing as is in white dwarf. It seems just plain bizarre that CSM DP's with wings are different to daemon DP's with wings. It seems like someone at GW had a derp moment when putting that in. The only monstrous creature with wings in the game that ISN'T a flying monstrous creature! Why? Because its an old book and is getting redone soon? FMC's are nasty and we didn't want CSM/CD allies to go flying circus on everyone? A DP ate my baby and now i don't like them?

I think they should be fluff wise,but the other monstrous creatures in the game pay 60pts for their wings. So i'm not overly upset. No doubt they will fix it with our new codex!

I doubt we'll even get princes in the new Codex, why would they give us access to one of the core units another faction uses as heavey support. They'll probably have them confined to the daemons codex so it forces us to buy into allies.

protonhunter wrote:I doubt we'll even get princes in the new Codex, why would they give us access to one of the core units another faction uses as heavey support. They'll probably have them confined to the daemons codex so it forces us to buy into allies.

I doubt that very much, Daemon princes have been one of the Chaos Marines core HQ's for quite awhile, Daemons get their own version of the Prince, they have some stat differences and play different roles in both Codex's.

blood reaper wrote:

protonhunter wrote:I doubt we'll even get princes in the new Codex, why would they give us access to one of the core units another faction uses as heavey support. They'll probably have them confined to the daemons codex so it forces us to buy into allies.

I doubt that very much, Daemon princes have been one of the Chaos Marines core HQ's for quite awhile, Daemons get their own version of the Prince, they have some stat differences and play different roles in both Codex's.

Yeah but think about things from the perspective of GW. How do you shake up a stagnant meta and at the same time sell the maximum number of models. The current meta is to take a daemon prince give him lash and build from there.

Step 1: don't alienate long time players by making them buy all new models, hey you can still play with the DP but you gotta just buy a new HQ for your chaos guys and a troop choice for your daemons, hey did you know you can take these cool looking other guys after you buy that first troop choice

Step 2: encourage the buying of new models (see above) also why don't you get these shanzy looking cultists we have, They interact really well with that new HQ you bought for the chaos side.

Setp 3: profit

Edit:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/462894.page

Just read through the newest rumers according to them my guess is right but who knows at this point.

Since they seem to be going all retro with the current edition I can see chaos lords just being generic lords and you buy certain daemonic gifts to make him a prince.

Customizable lords and sorcerers.

Like the 3.5 Dex? That would be sweet!

Saying that, if i remember correctly that codex actually had the option to give charcters mauls and stuff. all the CCWs were also separated ('zerkers had "Heavy" chain axes where the best armour save you coudl take was a 4+, take THAT terminators!).

/sigh

Abaddon is still awesome in 6th ed!!!

Two games of 6th ed he's done well, won a game against Space Marines for me, and did well against Nids (unfortunately because the Nid player wasn't sure how to deal with Abaddon and my 10 man Terminator squad, combat was delayed until turn four, because I kept trying to assault rather than run). Also did a one on one with Lysander, and killed him in two rounds of combat. The amount of wounds Abaddon does does kind of negate the AP3 ness of his weapon. Yeah he's expensive, but he's fun, and still very powerful. And I reckon he's going to be even better in the next codex (probably same points cost, but better stats/weaponary/special rules).

rodgers37 wrote:Abaddon is still awesome in 6th ed!!!

Two games of 6th ed he's done well, won a game against Space Marines for me, and did well against Nids (unfortunately because the Nid player wasn't sure how to deal with Abaddon and my 10 man Terminator squad, combat was delayed until turn four, because I kept trying to assault rather than run). Also did a one on one with Lysander, and killed him in two rounds of combat. The amount of wounds Abaddon does does kind of negate the AP3 ness of his weapon. Yeah he's expensive, but he's fun, and still very powerful. And I reckon he's going to be even better in the next codex (probably same points cost, but better stats/weaponary/special rules).

You can get 8 terminators for the price you pay for abbaddon. He is good but I'd rather have the 8 terminators.

sennacherib wrote:Greater Demon
Allied Demon Prince
Allied Nurglings
Allied Soulgrinder

How do you get the allied DP as an elite?
Both him and the soulgrinder are heavies.

rodgers37 wrote:Abaddon is still awesome in 6th ed!!!

Two games of 6th ed he's done well, won a game against Space Marines for me, and did well against Nids (unfortunately because the Nid player wasn't sure how to deal with Abaddon and my 10 man Terminator squad, combat was delayed until turn four, because I kept trying to assault rather than run). Also did a one on one with Lysander, and killed him in two rounds of combat. The amount of wounds Abaddon does does kind of negate the AP3 ness of his weapon. Yeah he's expensive, but he's fun, and still very powerful. And I reckon he's going to be even better in the next codex (probably same points cost, but better stats/weaponary/special rules).

You must have been rolling like Tzeentch himself to beat Lysander with Abbie, as his daemon weapon can't pierce terminator armor anymore! In any case, props to you and may you always roll a 6 on his daemon weapon extra attacks die!

Sephyr wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:Abaddon is still awesome in 6th ed!!!

Two games of 6th ed he's done well, won a game against Space Marines for me, and did well against Nids (unfortunately because the Nid player wasn't sure how to deal with Abaddon and my 10 man Terminator squad, combat was delayed until turn four, because I kept trying to assault rather than run). Also did a one on one with Lysander, and killed him in two rounds of combat. The amount of wounds Abaddon does does kind of negate the AP3 ness of his weapon. Yeah he's expensive, but he's fun, and still very powerful. And I reckon he's going to be even better in the next codex (probably same points cost, but better stats/weaponary/special rules).

You must have been rolling like Tzeentch himself to beat Lysander with Abbie, as his daemon weapon can't pierce terminator armor anymore! In any case, props to you and may you always roll a 6 on his daemon weapon extra attacks die!

It was very lucky, rolled a 5 first time, 9 hits, 9 wounds, 2 failed saves, he did 3 wounds I passed all 3 Inv saves. Rolled 4 next round, hit with 7, 7 wounds, 2 fails, Lysander dead. He hit simultaneously and I failed 2 out of 3 wounds this time.

I think Typhus replaces the abilities of Abaddon in this edition, and while Abaddon is quite effective, Typhus plays his role for a cheaper price.

Has anyone used Blight Drones under the new rules? They are Flyers now and have decent survivability with AV 12 11 10, 3 Hullpoints and an 5++ save.

The armament isn't bad either with one S8 AP3 pie plate, a reaper autocannon and less impressive an S6 flamer. Unfortunately they have only BS2 reducing the effectivnes of the reaper autocannon.

Still no sure if they are worth 125p though?

Sephyr wrote:You must have been rolling like Tzeentch himself to beat Lysander with Abbie, as his daemon weapon can't pierce terminator armor anymore! In any case, props to you and may you always roll a 6 on his daemon weapon extra attacks die!

Abbadon still does well, and does not need luck of Tzeentch to win. Let me show you the mathhammer.
Abbadon:
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.67% chance to hit,
S 8 vs. T4 = 83.33% chance to hit (increased to 97.22% with wargear),
Lysander has a 2+ save = 16.67% chance to get through, and
Abbadon has +1d6 bonus attacks, but hits himself instead if he rolls a 1.

66.67% × 97.22% × 16.67% × 0 attacks × 16.67% = 0.00, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 16.67% × 6 attacks × 16.67% = 0.12, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 16.67% × 7 attacks × 16.67% = 0.13, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 16.67% × 8 attacks × 16.67% = 0.15, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 16.67% × 9 attacks × 16.67% = 0.17, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 16.67% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.18 equals ~.74 unsaved wounds per turn.

It takes Abbadon 6 turns to kill Lysander

Lysander:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit,
S 8 vs T4 = 83.33% chance to wound , and
Abbadon has a 4+ invulnerable save = 50.00% chance to get through.

50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 3 attacks = ~0.624975 unsaved wounds per turn.

It takes Lysander 7 turns to kill Abbadon

Summary
Abbadon still edges out over Lysander, though its a much closer fight than before.
The problem is that Abbadon costs 75 more points than Lysander, which means he should do more than just 'edge out' in a duel.
Luckly, there will be a new C:SM codex in September, so this will hopefully be addressed.

(Thanks to Creeperman for showing this mathhammer logic)

Has anyone else noticed that winged chaos lords and sorcerers can no longer fit in rhinos?
Wings makes them Jump Infantry according to the FAQ, rather than just moving like jump infantry as before.

Wasn't that also the case in 5th ed?

(I never took jump troops and the only winged model i had was a DP, which DEFINATELY can't fit in a Rhino)

No wings only counted as for movement before. At least they are immune to jaws now. That bugged me last edition.

Kevlar wrote:No wings only counted as for movement before. At least they are immune to jaws now. That bugged me last edition.

True! I must remember this. I wonder if that is the same for Jump MCs (CSM Winged Princes)

Changes to Chaos in 6th quick summary of the thread-so-far:
-CSM/Daemons make excellent and fluffy allies
-Epidermus/plague marines are pretty good
-Kharn got slapped with the suckstick
-FMC's are win, and ours are arguably some of the best
-Mech still works, but foot is much more viable
-New psychic powers are potent
-Whilst Typhus seems to be much better, the talk of him being the new thing has died down.
-Bloodletters and bloodcrushers took a nerf now they are AP3
-New vehicle movement/assault rules makes screamers much better at their intended role.



I was thinking the other day-guard are cheap. And have some nice vehicular support. A block of guardsmen can be purchased relatively cheaply, along with a cheap HQ to give a big scoring blob of guard that you can use to do things you couldn't before (bubblewrapping for example) and send upfield as meatshields for your CSM, with the added bonus of if the meat does live it can score, putting more pressure on the enemy to destroy it. For 150-250p you can get a fair few boots on the ground. This also allows you access to sexy sexy units like Manticore's, basilisks, Leman russ tanks, valks and vendettas... The human wave tactic sounds fun, fluffy and viable in my head. Hopefully much more viable though with a new codex!