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Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:In fact it's completely pointless because they don't have time anyway so really only realspace events matter.

By insisting on trying to understand the Immaterium only in terms of the Materium, you are setting yourself up for failure.

On the contrary, I'm separating them completely. If event's 1-3 happen in a left-to-right-way and 4 then went right and then left and up and down the point is 1-3 still happened first. The Dark Gods are not time travelling supervillians who use their time travelling super powers to thwart the Imperium at ever turn before it even happens. In fact I don't think there's a single mention of the Big 4 ever going back in time to do anything.

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:In fact it's completely pointless because they don't have time anyway so really only realspace events matter.

By insisting on trying to understand the Immaterium only in terms of the Materium, you are setting yourself up for failure.

If realspace events don't matter, cutting off realspace from the Warp as the oldcrons planned and the newcrons might be planning would have been meaningless.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:In fact it's completely pointless because they don't have time anyway so really only realspace events matter.

By insisting on trying to understand the Immaterium only in terms of the Materium, you are setting yourself up for failure.

On the contrary, I'm separating them completely. If event's 1-3 happen in a left-to-right-way and 4 then went right and then left and up and down the point is 1-3 still happened first. The Dark Gods are not time travelling supervillians who use their time travelling super powers to thwart the Imperium at ever turn before it even happens. In fact I don't think there's a single mention of the Big 4 ever going back in time to do anything.

They can't. Because time DOES exist in the Warp, just not in the ordered fashion it exists in reality.

If time is not ordered then it is not time. It makes sense to say that Slaanesh did not intervene in events in the Milky Way before M29. It does not make sense to say that Slaanesh did not exist before M29, except from a very narrow point of view that basically excludes understanding Slaanesh, the Warp, and the other Chaos Gods.

Manchu wrote:If time is not ordered then it is not time. It makes sense to say that Slaanesh did not intervene in events in the Milky Way before M29. It does not make sense to say that Slaanesh did not exist before M29, except from a very narrow point of view that basically excludes understanding Slaanesh, the Warp, and the other Chaos Gods.

Time in the Warp could be described as an hourglass, all the tiny grains of sand moving towards a single end, but can an infinitely varied route to get there. The 'gods' or even Chaos per se did not exist at all before the War in Heaven. Back then, the Immaterium was calm and peaceful, and while predators lived in the Warp, they were not the malevolent sentient 'daemons' of the present. It was only during the War in Heaven did the Immaterium get twisted into Warp, and 'gods' and 'daemons' came into existence.

Nope. Chaos is the Warp; the Warp is Chaos.

Manchu wrote:Nope. Chaos is the Warp; the Warp is Chaos.

Which absolutely contradicts all the fluff on the War in Heaven.

No it doesn't. Why do you think the Old Ones invented the Webway in the first place?

And you want to get down to the bottom line it's the fact the people of the Milky Way did not have to contend with the problem of Slaneesh consuming their souls before the year ~29,990AD. Fancy warp time or not. Just as people at other unspecified dates didn't have to deal with Tzeentch and Nurgle.

Going all the way back, let's not forget these "gods" were created unintentionally by the Old Ones. Once upon a time the warp didn't suck. It was calm, but the Old Ones actually invented psychic powers as weapon to use against the C'tan because the Necrontyr were being jerks. The warp was essentialy weaponized by the Old Ones and when it was the created races emotions (and beliefs!) started to affect it. That's when the the energies started to coalesce into sentient beings.

brief summary: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Old_ones

Edit: quasi-ninja'd

Manchu wrote:No it doesn't. Why do you think the Old Ones invented the Webway in the first place?

FTL travel that was faster and more reliable than Warp jumping? In fact, the reason the Eldar weren't created until the situation turned desperate was because the Old Ones feared that violent psychic races would have a catastrophic effect on balance of the Warp. They were right. It was only after the Eldar turned the tide with their psychic powers did 'daemons' come into existence and the Warp was reduced into a nightmarish mire.

Chaos is most definitely NOT the warp. The Warp is "universal" as seen with the warp being calm at the fringes and outside our galaxy. Chaos is a localized threat, sure, there is the chance that another galaxy has their own version of chaos but it is definitely not the chaos that is localized in our galaxy. Also, it is stated in the Oldcron codex (and has not been countered or rendered obsolete by any of the new fluff so don't you dare use that argument), that the Old Ones, in their desperation to create races capable of countering the Necrons and the C'tan, created Chaos from all the turbulence in the Warp they and their warp-tuned spawn created. Remember, FLUFF FACT: The Warp was a very calm, peaceful, and harmonious place prior to the War in Heaven. It was not until the War that the area of the Warp parallel to our galaxy became a chaotic place which, you hopefully guessed it, birthed Chaos.

And cutting off our galaxy does starve out chaos. Ever read the fluff about the necron pylons (i prefer obelisks, gets too confusing with the Necron Pylons from FW otherwise)? The C'tan were constructing those pylons to a)cut our galaxy off from the Warp, b) starve out the gods in the Warp effectively rendering them impotent (sucks for Slaanesh ). And that fluff has yet to be countered/rendered obsolete.

KP- winning

King Pariah wrote:
And cutting off our galaxy does starve out chaos. Ever read the fluff about the necron pylons (i prefer obelisks, gets too confusing with the Necron Pylons from FW otherwise)? The C'tan were constructing those pylons to a)cut our galaxy off from the Warp, b) starve out the gods in the Warp effectively rendering them impotent (sucks for Slaanesh ). And that fluff has yet to be countered/rendered obsolete.

Weren't one of the three goals of the Star Gods in the oldcron codex the destruction of Chaos?

KP- winning

lol.

Not just chaos but every warp spawned "god"

And you know damn well I am lol

Tadashi wrote: more reliable than Warp jumping

Wonder why ...

Also, I just read the pages of Necron fluff quoted by Lexicanum and they do not support your points (or theirs). On page 26, it is said that the warp magicks of the young races disturbed the Warp so that entities in the Warp became predacious towards real space. In other words, exactly what I have been saying all along.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

King Pariah wrote:Chaos is most definitely NOT the warp.

Refuted by explicit reference: C:CD 4E p6

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote: more reliable than Warp jumping

Wonder why ...

Also, I just read the pages of Necron fluff quoted by Lexicanum and they do not support your points (or theirs). On page 26, it is said that the warp magicks of the young races disturbed the Warp so that entities in the Warp became predacious towards real space. In other words, exactly what I have been saying all along.

No, they only became that way because of the disruptions caused by the War in Heaven. 'Gods' and 'daemons' did not exist until the War in Heaven's final, violent, phases.

King Pariah wrote:Chaos is most definitely NOT the warp.

Refuted by explicit reference: C:CD 4E p6

Tadashi wrote:'Gods' and 'daemons' did not exist until the War in Heaven's final, violent, phases.

Go read the book. Page 26: "Older warp entities became terrifying predators ..."

Then the existence of the Emperor (before his death), the Ork Gods, and perhaps the Eldar Gods are rendered moot.

Not even close.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:'Gods' and 'daemons' did not exist until the War in Heaven's final, violent, phases.

Go read the book. Page 26: "Older warp entities became terrifying predators ..."

Exactly. They 'became' - only the disruptions in the Warp caused by the material universe made them that way.

Then the existence of the Emperor (before his death), the Ork Gods, and perhaps the Eldar Gods are rendered moot.

Not even close.

Why not? If all the Warp is Chaos, then the shamans shouldn't have succeeded in creating their collective reincarnation. Why would Chaos allow something more powerful than itself manifest in the form of the Ork Gods? Why gods of order like the Eldar Gods exist at all?

Here's a possible explanation: with enough psychic power, the Warp energies could be manipulated, right? Psykers do so all the time, albeit on a massively smaller scale, so why couldn't warp entities like the Eldar Gods and shamans (collectively the, or one of the, most powerful psykers ever?)

Elector wrote:Here's a possible explanation: with enough psychic power, the Warp energies could be manipulated, right? Psykers do so all the time, albeit on a massively smaller scale, so why couldn't warp entities like the Eldar Gods and shamans (collectively the, or one of the, most powerful psykers ever?)

Still doesn't explain how Gork and Mork could exist if all the Warp is Chaos. Orks aren't like other psykers. They don't draw on the Warp, they generate their own latent psychic field.

True, but their emotions do feed into the Warp (as does any sentient creature's). Given how orks outnumber just about every other species (except maybe the Tyranids), their emotions and traits would feed into a very powerful couple of entities.

(we have covered that Warp Entities do get stronger from emotions, even if they do not need it I survive)

Tadashi wrote:

King Pariah wrote:
And cutting off our galaxy does starve out chaos. Ever read the fluff about the necron pylons (i prefer obelisks, gets too confusing with the Necron Pylons from FW otherwise)? The C'tan were constructing those pylons to a)cut our galaxy off from the Warp, b) starve out the gods in the Warp effectively rendering them impotent (sucks for Slaanesh ). And that fluff has yet to be countered/rendered obsolete.

Weren't one of the three goals of the Star Gods in the oldcron codex the destruction of Chaos?

KP- winning

lol.

Now, now, no one wins when a giant nerd war about toy soldiers breaks out. We're all losers...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:We're all losers...

And proud of it!

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:We're all losers...

And proud of it!

Aye, that's the one thing we can all agree on!

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:'Gods' and 'daemons' did not exist until the War in Heaven's final, violent, phases.

Go read the book. Page 26: "Older warp entities became terrifying predators ..."

Exactly. They 'became' - only the disruptions in the Warp caused by the material universe made them that way.

Liber Chaotica, I think it's the Slaanesh section, mentions that during the War in Heaven the Eldar summoned their Gods to assist them and along with them came other Warp Entities, after the war they would never summon their Gods the same way again to prevent this from happening. Basically, when they summoned their gods, Daemons broke through as well. Whether they were Daemons of the big four or not isn't told. But think on this if the Eldar Gods exist, why not the Chaos Gods? Khaine is quite possibly a distant relative of Khorne, in the early fluff Khorne fought with Slaanesh during the fall because Khaine

When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way.

It's a head fnarp basically, they haven't existed yet they always have, so even though we say that they came into being during the middle ages they were in fact always there and never there

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Then the existence of the Emperor (before his death), the Ork Gods, and perhaps the Eldar Gods are rendered moot.

Not even close.

Why not? If all the Warp is Chaos, then the shamans shouldn't have succeeded in creating their collective reincarnation. Why would Chaos allow something more powerful than itself manifest in the form of the Ork Gods? Why gods of order like the Eldar Gods exist at all?

They don't have much choice in the matter I guess, emotions formed them and the emotions of other races will give birth to other things. The Shamans recognised the threat in the Chaos Gods and made the sacrifice themselves to bring about the life of the Emperor. It's much like Psykers and Ships using the Warp, they can do it using their own will, but woe betide should you attract the attentions of the predators in the warp.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:We're all losers...

And proud of it!

Aye, that's the one thing we can all agree on!

Indeed

Pilau Rice wrote:

When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way.

It's a head fnarp basically, they haven't existed yet they always have, so even though we say that they came into being during the middle ages they were in fact always there and never there

Which proves my belief that the Powers of Chaos were equal or stronger than the Eldar Gods.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Then the existence of the Emperor (before his death), the Ork Gods, and perhaps the Eldar Gods are rendered moot.

Not even close.

Why not? If all the Warp is Chaos, then the shamans shouldn't have succeeded in creating their collective reincarnation. Why would Chaos allow something more powerful than itself manifest in the form of the Ork Gods? Why gods of order like the Eldar Gods exist at all?

They don't have much choice in the matter I guess, emotions formed them and the emotions of other races will give birth to other things. The Shamans recognised the threat in the Chaos Gods and made the sacrifice themselves to bring about the life of the Emperor. It's much like Psykers and Ships using the Warp, they can do it using their own will, but woe betide should you attract the attentions of the predators in the warp.

Brother Thomas wrote:The emperor is empowered by believers. The Chaos gods are not powered by believers, but evil and corruption via humans and adhumans

Would like to point out that the Emperor is powered by the hope of his beleivers, not the beleif itself, IMO

brentyboi wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:The emperor is empowered by believers. The Chaos gods are not powered by believers, but evil and corruption via humans and adhumans

Would like to point out that the Emperor is powered by the hope of his beleivers, not the beleif itself, IMO

The God-Emperor is...an incomplete 'god' in the Warp. The Emperor died in the Horus Heresy.

Tadashi wrote:
My point was that Manchu was wrong that the whole Warp is Chaos, which would the Powers who each represent an aspect of Chaos, have complete control over it. Obviously, they don't, as the shamans could fuse their souls to create the Emperor, and the Orks believed Gork and Mork into existence, and the Eldar might have done the same during the War in Heaven.

He's not wrong, it's a direct quote from Codex: Chaos Daemons.

During the Heresy according to Collected Visions the Chaos Gods calmed the Warp or made the Warp unstable at a whim, this isn't so apparent in the actual Heresy series though, as there is a lot of new Tech being mentioned to do stuff like this.

It is hard to explain though and I am not sure anyone can, I get what you are saying. I think you are being to restrictive in your thinking perhaps. Maybe if the sentence was along the lines of Chaos is made of the stuff of the warp, but the warp is Chaos? Basically the Warp is a chaotic place, where there is no time or no up or down, and Chaos, the actual denizens are made of the stuff of the Warp, they share an affinity with each other

Yes, it is hard to explain ...

Pilau Rice wrote:


It is hard to explain though and I am not sure anyone can, I get what you are saying. I think you are being to restrictive in your thinking. Perhaps if the sentence was along the lines of Chaos is made of the stuff of the warp, but the warp is Chaos? Basically the Warp is a chaotic place, where there is no time or no up or down, and Chaos, the actual denizens are made of the stuff of the Warp

Yes, it is hard to explain ...

I think I've got it. The Warp is a chaotic place, but the 'Chaos' represented by the Four Powers do not represent the Warp as a whole, nor do they have complete control over it. This is why the Orks and maybe Eldar were able to 'believe' their 'gods' into existence, and how the shamans could create the Emperor. On a lesser level, this allows trained psykers of any race to use the Warp with relative safety.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:


It is hard to explain though and I am not sure anyone can, I get what you are saying. I think you are being to restrictive in your thinking. Perhaps if the sentence was along the lines of Chaos is made of the stuff of the warp, but the warp is Chaos? Basically the Warp is a chaotic place, where there is no time or no up or down, and Chaos, the actual denizens are made of the stuff of the Warp

Yes, it is hard to explain ...

I think I've got it. The Warp is a chaotic place, but the 'Chaos' represented by the Four Powers do not represent the Warp as a whole, nor do they have complete control over it. This is why the Orks and maybe Eldar were able to 'believe' their 'gods' into existence, and how the shamans could create the Emperor. On a lesser level, this allows trained psykers of any race to use the Warp with relative safety.

I would say that you pretty much have it, but then I might be wrong, I don't think we are supposed to be able to comprehend the warp at all. The Warp is also a big place, and regardless of how ever present the Chaos Gods are there is always a distraction, possibly one of the other Gods has an interest of a lesser God forming to lend assistance to it's cause for a while, keeping it hidden from its brothers or maybe they are to heavily involved in the Great Game at one time.

Gork and Mork are just to stubborn to accept what the Chaos Gods say and just force their way through, the same way as the Orks do. I think the Orks uniqueness is what allows these two to exist. With the Emperor it was a collective conscious sacrifice that bought his existence about, he remembers each of his past lifes.

We really don't know what the Eldar and Ork "gods" are. I'm not going to even touch on the subject of Gork and Mork because there is nothing even remotely trustworthy written about them. As for the Eldar Gods, they could be the Eldar's dim memory of their creators, the Old Ones. Or perhaps they are the Eldar's own original ancestors -- the ones closest to the Old Ones and therefore the most powerful Eldar psykers to ever exist (similar to the Emperor). Nothing published explicitly indicates that they are necessarily "gods" in the sense of the Ruinous Powers.