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2012/07/12 14:22:29
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Manchu wrote:We really don't know what the Eldar and Ork "gods" are. I'm not going to even touch on the subject of Gork and Mork because there is nothing even remotely trustworthy written about them.
That's a rather nonsensical thing to say.
IF you think codices making unequivocal statements about the subject (which are not attributed to the orks themselves, I should note, but are instead written from the narrator's perspective) are "nothing even remotely trustworthy", then I would go so far as to say you only think things you agree with are trustworthy.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2012/07/12 14:31:45
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Melissia wrote:... then I would go so far as to say you only think things you agree with are trustworthy.
Then you would go too far. The Ork perspective is unique because it does not make any pretense whatsoever to objectivity. Even the deeply prejudiced and superstitious Imperium operates under the assumption of trying to understand the universe for what it really is. That's why the Imperium invents things like Geller Fields while the Orks "jess get da weirdboyz ta sort it out" or whatever. The Orks don't need scientific materialism to be effective in the world; they just will things to happen. So when the Orks say that there is a such thing as Gork and Mork, I have no doubt that there are truly such things. Just like I have no doubt that for them the "red wunz" are indeed faster. But the orks' attitude towards paintjobs hardly qualifies them as mechanical engineers.
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2012/07/12 14:31:47
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Melissia wrote:Manchu wrote:We really don't know what the Eldar and Ork "gods" are. I'm not going to even touch on the subject of Gork and Mork because there is nothing even remotely trustworthy written about them.
That's a rather nonsensical thing to say.
IF you think codices making unequivocal statements about the subject (which are not attributed to the orks themselves, I should note, but are instead written from the narrator's perspective) are "nothing even remotely trustworthy", then I would go so far as to say you only think things you agree with are trustworthy.
She does have a point. The fluff on Gork and Mork from Codex: Orks 4th Edition is quite clear to their power level and nature.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/12 14:38:05
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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[MOD]
Solahma
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That codex is also quite clear that the orks always win every battle even when they lose. :/
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2012/07/12 14:43:53
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Manchu wrote:That codex is also quite clear that the orks always win every battle even when they lose. :/
Because they never actually lose. They'll just keep coming back. In-universe, that's the reason Orks are the most successful race in the galaxy. For them survival is not a question - its a fact.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/12 14:46:19
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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[MOD]
Solahma
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They're not interested in survival; they're just interested in fighting. They're also not interested in understanding the Warp. The Ork perspective isn't much good for finding anything out about the 40k universe except regarding the Ork perspective itself.
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2012/07/12 14:49:38
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Manchu wrote:They're not interested in survival; they're just interested in fighting. They're also not interested in understanding the Warp. The Ork perspective isn't much good for finding anything out about the 40k universe except regarding the Ork perspective itself.
Why should they worry about survival when there's no need to so? And the existence of Gork and Mork (who surpass all others in the Warp) make it clear that belief has as much effect as emotion in the Warp. The Ork perspective is the purest in 40k...everything else is muddled by civilization, history, culture, etc. Just look at the Orks and there you see the perfect species and the perfect example for Warhammer 40,000.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/12 14:52:23
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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[MOD]
Solahma
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So are you going to change you avatar and sig to something about orks now? 
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2012/07/12 14:56:25
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Manchu wrote:So are you going to change you avatar and sig to something about orks now?
Of course not. Pardon me if I lapse this once into roleplay but, I fight for the Fallen Emperor's ideals of truth and enlightenment, not the whims of a council of bureaucrats.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/12 15:03:31
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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[MOD]
Solahma
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You know, if you really like that idea you might want a Soul Drinkers avatar rather than a 1k Sons avatar. They think exactly the same way.
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2012/07/12 15:07:25
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Manchu wrote:You know, if you really like that idea you might want a Soul Drinkers avatar rather than a 1k Sons avatar. They think exactly the same way.
Thing is, and once again sorry if I slip into roleplay, I'd rather go after the Black Library and use its knowledge to go back in time and stop the Horus Heresy from ever happening. AT ALL. Blood Ravens could possibly be Thousand Sons, are more knowledgeable about the Warp, and are my favorite legion.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/12 18:08:43
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Manchu wrote:We really don't know what the Eldar and Ork "gods" are. I'm not going to even touch on the subject of Gork and Mork because there is nothing even remotely trustworthy written about them. As for the Eldar Gods, they could be the Eldar's dim memory of their creators, the Old Ones. Or perhaps they are the Eldar's own original ancestors -- the ones closest to the Old Ones and therefore the most powerful Eldar psykers to ever exist (similar to the Emperor). Nothing published explicitly indicates that they are necessarily "gods" in the sense of the Ruinous Powers.
Except all the things people have pointed out already which you keep conviently ignoring.
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2012/07/12 18:16:23
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Manchu wrote:Then you would go too far.
I probably don't go far enough, really.
Just because the Imperium doesn't believe in them doesn't mean that they don't exist. I don't see any logical basis for your argument except a peculiar desire to deny their existence for...some.... reason....
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2012/07/12 19:38:03
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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[MOD]
Solahma
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except all the things people have pointed out already which you keep conviently ignoring.
I've actually addressed them all. Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:Just because the Imperium doesn't believe in them doesn't mean that they don't exist. I don't see any logical basis for your argument except a peculiar desire to deny their existence for...some.... reason....
Well, at least I have proof that you don't understand my position. You see, I didn't claim that the Ork gods and Eldar gods don't exist. I simply said we don't know how they exist(ed).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/12 19:39:09
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2012/07/12 20:21:57
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Manchu wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except all the things people have pointed out already which you keep conviently ignoring.
I've actually addressed them all.
If addressing them is simply ignoring something because it's in the Eldar codex then that's a poor arguement. We should also ignore what's in the Daemons codex because it could just all be written off as the Big 4 bragging about how awesome they are. At least the Eldar were actual people.
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2012/07/13 03:40:39
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Manchu wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except all the things people have pointed out already which you keep conviently ignoring.
I've actually addressed them all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:Just because the Imperium doesn't believe in them doesn't mean that they don't exist. I don't see any logical basis for your argument except a peculiar desire to deny their existence for...some.... reason....
Well, at least I have proof that you don't understand my position. You see, I didn't claim that the Ork gods and Eldar gods don't exist. I simply said we don't know how they exist(ed).
Okay, that's understandable.
Personally I think it's simply them as a manifestation of the galactic Ork WAAAGH! effect.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2012/07/13 03:58:08
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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[MOD]
Solahma
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:At least the Eldar were actual people.
No, they're aliens, too. But they show an interest in objective reality. Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:Personally I think it's simply them as a manifestation of the galactic Ork WAAAGH! effect.
I completely agree that this is the most reasonable explanation.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/13 03:58:53
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2012/07/15 03:55:11
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Wishing I still kept my Oldcron codex so I could site the damn passages... *grumble grumble grumble...*
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Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB |
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2012/07/17 03:45:44
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
Some Throne-Forsaken Battlefield on the other side of the Galaxy
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The Imperial Truth would have worked, minus the part about explaining the existence of Chaos to the masses*. Knowing about Chaos would cause mass corruption and basically send 40k back to 3rd edition. However, if the average Imperial citizen knew more than "The Emperor is a god!" it would be beneficial to Humanity.
*I think that was part of the Imperial Truth, but I'm not sure.
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2012/07/17 03:49:03
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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DOOMBREAD wrote:The Imperial Truth would have worked, minus the part about explaining the existence of Chaos to the masses*. Knowing about Chaos would cause mass corruption and basically send 40k back to 3rd edition. However, if the average Imperial citizen knew more than "The Emperor is a god!" it would be beneficial to Humanity.
*I think that was part of the Imperial Truth, but I'm not sure.
No. The Imperial Truths sets aside faith, superstition, and religion for reason, logic, and scientific progress. The Emperor had the XIII Legio Astartes Ultramarines burn Monarchia to the ground as it was the center of the Lectitio Divinitatus (the old name for the Imperial Cult).
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/17 08:18:30
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
Madrid
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Tadashi wrote:DOOMBREAD wrote:The Imperial Truth would have worked, minus the part about explaining the existence of Chaos to the masses*. Knowing about Chaos would cause mass corruption and basically send 40k back to 3rd edition. However, if the average Imperial citizen knew more than "The Emperor is a god!" it would be beneficial to Humanity.
*I think that was part of the Imperial Truth, but I'm not sure.
No. The Imperial Truths sets aside faith, superstition, and religion for reason, logic, and scientific progress. The Emperor had the XIII Legio Astartes Ultramarines burn Monarchia to the ground as it was the center of the Lectitio Divinitatus (the old name for the Imperial Cult).
That's not entirely true, the Imperial Truth was basically a lie to hide Chaos to the people, personally, after reading the Horus Heresy books I get the impression that the emperor is not as "good" as people think of him, while his initial goal seems very clear, it seems to be more and more diluted as time passes.
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 5.000  2.000
"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, yet you still dare to oppose our will."
Never Forgive, Never Forget
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2012/07/17 08:26:13
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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jgehunter wrote:Tadashi wrote:DOOMBREAD wrote:The Imperial Truth would have worked, minus the part about explaining the existence of Chaos to the masses*. Knowing about Chaos would cause mass corruption and basically send 40k back to 3rd edition. However, if the average Imperial citizen knew more than "The Emperor is a god!" it would be beneficial to Humanity.
*I think that was part of the Imperial Truth, but I'm not sure.
No. The Imperial Truths sets aside faith, superstition, and religion for reason, logic, and scientific progress. The Emperor had the XIII Legio Astartes Ultramarines burn Monarchia to the ground as it was the center of the Lectitio Divinitatus (the old name for the Imperial Cult).
That's not entirely true, the Imperial Truth was basically a lie to hide Chaos to the people, personally, after reading the Horus Heresy books I get the impression that the emperor is not as "good" as people think of him, while his initial goal seems very clear, it seems to be more and more diluted as time passes.
You ought to read the older posts - we've been discussing for a long time now that the Imperial Truth was meant to 'kill' or 'emasculate' Chaos in the long-term.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/17 08:35:49
Subject: Re:The Imperial Truth
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
Madrid
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Although that was his plan I don't think it would have worked as it appears that Actions rather than Belief are what fuel them and while there were any Xenos left to kill, Khorne would still be up there.
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5.000 2.000
"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, yet you still dare to oppose our will."
Never Forgive, Never Forget
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2012/07/17 08:47:06
Subject: Re:The Imperial Truth
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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jgehunter wrote:Although that was his plan I don't think it would have worked as it appears that Actions rather than Belief are what fuel them and while there were any Xenos left to kill, Khorne would still be up there.
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We've already discussed that problem earlier...this thread is six pages long. Look for it.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/17 08:49:25
Subject: The Imperial Truth
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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jgehunter wrote:Tadashi wrote:DOOMBREAD wrote:The Imperial Truth would have worked, minus the part about explaining the existence of Chaos to the masses*. Knowing about Chaos would cause mass corruption and basically send 40k back to 3rd edition. However, if the average Imperial citizen knew more than "The Emperor is a god!" it would be beneficial to Humanity.
*I think that was part of the Imperial Truth, but I'm not sure.
No. The Imperial Truths sets aside faith, superstition, and religion for reason, logic, and scientific progress. The Emperor had the XIII Legio Astartes Ultramarines burn Monarchia to the ground as it was the center of the Lectitio Divinitatus (the old name for the Imperial Cult).
That's not entirely true, the Imperial Truth was basically a lie to hide Chaos to the people, personally, after reading the Horus Heresy books I get the impression that the emperor is not as "good" as people think of him, while his initial goal seems very clear, it seems to be more and more diluted as time passes.
Was it a lie though or was it more of an attempt to rationalize everything, to give everything a classification that can be explained? I'm sort of with Tadashi in regards to why the Imperial Truth was bought about. There are no Gods or Daemons, just powerful extra dimensional xenos.
But then it comes down to the individuals interpretation, when faced with something, like Kyril Sindermann was in Horus Rising, seeing something like the Daemon Possessed Jubal is enough to test ones own beliefs, even the most stoic of believers. Which is the what the Chaos Gods want you to do, they show you something extraordinary that your mind has never comprehended before, just so you start believing in something else. Is the belief not enough, maybe not, but you start to investigate what is beyond your knowledge and you open your mind to suggestion.
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No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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289th Descaal Janissaries: around 2kpts
Imperial Fists 4th company (Work In Progress)
Warhost of Biel-Tan (Coming Soon!)