The Imperial Truth

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Tadashi**

Elector wrote:Okay, seriously, where did you read that the Warp is affected by belief.

Because every OTHER piece of fluff indicates it's affected by emotions.

Also, nobody knows if the Eldar gods were actual entities or just myths, but your argument that the Warp and Chaos are one the same supports the argument that all entities in the Warp are beings of Chaos in some respect.

(also the Emperor shaman-thing? They were thousands of psykers who would die and enter the Warp temporarily, absorb psychic energy, and reincarnate, until their souls started to be consumed by the Powers instead of being born anew, so they had a suicide-pact and reborn at the same time as one immortal. They weren't Warp entities.)

The Eldar Gods came into existence because of the Eldar's belief in them...

Manchu wrote:Quite simply, the Ruinous Powers do not exist because real space beings "believe" in them.

Also, you might want to define (hopefully with a source) what the Imperial Truth is.

Its not referenced like the Imperial Creed, but the HH novels define it as setting aside faith, superstition, and organized religion for logic, reason, and scientific progress. Very inviting really...yes, I am serious.

**Elector**

The Eldar gods are very vague as to their nature in the fluff, they aren't the best example (whether they're myths, Warp entities, or Old Ones is all to be argued)

And yes, that's basically the definition from the article in the 2 srouces I found (one being the lexicanum: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Truth#.T_p-6vV_VyJ

It still doesn't in any way indicate belief is what drives what's what in the Warp.

**Tadashi**

Elector wrote:
It still doesn't in any way indicate belief is what drives what's what in the Warp.

No, neither of us is wrong. Belief and emotion drive the Warp together. And I never stated 'daemons' and 'gods' would vanish. Dreams and nightmares will keep giving birth to 'daemons', while the Powers would still exist because of people's emotions. They'd just be impotent, that's all. In the end, it boils down to because the fluff is so vague, we can both be right or wrong, or one of us is right and the other is wrong.

**Elector**

And I never thought you were saying they'd vanish. What I'm saying is they will still be as potent as ever, as more fluff very specifically says emotion gives them power/purpose (or whatever you feel qualifies them to be gods) than any fluff that claims belief plays a part beyond people trying to get the gods' attention through worship.

**Tadashi**

Elector wrote:And I never thought you were saying they'd vanish. What I'm saying is they will still be as potent as ever, as more fluff very specifically says emotion gives them power/purpose (or whatever you feel qualifies them to be gods) than any fluff that claims belief plays a part beyond people trying to get the gods' attention through worship.

Belief won't affect them directly, its the Warp itself that will be affected by belief, which will affect the Powers. The Powers don't have complete control of the Warp, as otherwise the Emperor, and the Eldar and Ork Gods would be rendered impotent. The Ork Gods are actually the opposite, described in Codex: Orks 4th Edition as the mightiest entities in the Warp and surpassing in power everything else - only their anarchic and single-minded nature (just like the Orks themselves) prevent them from achieving complete domination.

**KingDeath**

Tadashi wrote:
Elector wrote:Okay, seriously, where did you read that the Warp is affected by belief.

Because every OTHER piece of fluff indicates it's affected by emotions.

Also, nobody knows if the Eldar gods were actual entities or just myths, but your argument that the Warp and Chaos are one the same supports the argument that all entities in the Warp are beings of Chaos in some respect.

(also the Emperor shaman-thing? They were thousands of psykers who would die and enter the Warp temporarily, absorb psychic energy, and reincarnate, until their souls started to be consumed by the Powers instead of being born anew, so they had a suicide-pact and reborn at the same time as one immortal. They weren't Warp entities.)

The Eldar Gods came into existence because of the Eldar's belief in them...

Manchu wrote:Quite simply, the Ruinous Powers do not exist because real space beings "believe" in them.

Also, you might want to define (hopefully with a source) what the Imperial Truth is.

Its not referenced like the Imperial Creed, but the HH novels define it as setting aside faith, superstition, and organized religion for logic, reason, and scientific progress. Very inviting really...yes, I am serious.

The exact nature of the Eldar gods has never been stated. In fact what little we know about them points to the theory that they are, just like Slaanesh, aspects/ reflections of the eldar psyche and have not much to do with believe.

**Manchu**

The Eldar gods might not even exist outside of Eldar stories. As for Gork and Mork ... who knows what they are? The Orks do have a tendency to "will" things into being by sheer belief; something that is not found in other species at such a literal level. This does not describe the "birth" of Slaanesh (that is, when real space mortals in the Milky Way first drew the attention of the Warp in the way that they named "Slaanesh") or the process of a daemonic incursion, however.

As for the Imperial Truth: I don't think we have enough information to even give it a meaningful definition. As far as I can tell, the Imperial Truth was actually a lie. The Imperial Truth seems to hold that there are no gods or daemons; but these things definitely exist. Calling them "extra-dimensional aliens" or something similar is paltry semantics. It's like insisting we use the word "planet" instead of "world."

**Tadashi**

Manchu wrote:

As for the Imperial Truth: I don't think we have enough information to even give it a meaningful definition. As far as I can tell, the Imperial Truth was actually a lie. The Imperial Truth seems to hold that there are no gods or daemons; but these things definitely exist. Calling them "extra-dimensional aliens" or something similar is paltry semantics. It's like insisting we use the word "planet" instead of "world."

No, its true. They're not really 'gods' or 'daemons'. In fact, if we let Necrons/Tyranids/Orks kill everything in the galaxy, they'd cease to exist. Not so divine or demonic then, are they?

**Manchu**

Making a law that no one can call daemons "daemons" does not make them any less what they actually are: daemons.

The Warp Gods are not dependent upon material life forms for their existence. If all life in the Milky Way galaxy was to suddenly die out, the Ruinous Powers would simply not be interested in the Milky Way any more. I suppose one could say that they would therefore "cease to exist" with regard to the Milky Way galaxy. But that's a turn of phrase rather than a meaningful fact.

**Tadashi**

Manchu wrote:Making a law that no one can call daemons "daemons" does not make them any less what they actually are: daemons.

The Warp Gods are not dependent upon material life forms for their existence. If all life in the Milky Way galaxy was to suddenly die out, the Ruinous Powers would simply not be interested in the Milky Way any more. I suppose one could say that they would therefore "cease to exist" with regard to the Milky Way galaxy. But that's a turn of phrase rather than a meaningful fact.

They certainly didn't exist before M2, Imperial Calendar, didn't they? Or for that matter, daemons didn't come into being until the latter part of the War in Heaven. In other words, they are dependent on the material universe. Why do you think Necrons are so hell-bent (well, maybe not as much with the newcrons) on disconnecting reality and the Warp? Disconnect the two, and their greatest enemies, daemons and psychic powers, cease to exist.

**Lord Rogukiel**

Because the emotions and fears and hatred and all that kind of stuff would not reach the warp and therefore deprive chaos of its nutrition.

**Tadashi**

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Because the emotions and fears and hatred and all that kind of stuff would not reach the warp and therefore deprive chaos of its nutrition.

I never stated Chaos wasn't fed by emotions. I merely stated that belief would cause the Warp to react. But since under the Imperial Truth 'gods' and 'daemons' don't exist, instead of creating a 'god' embodying these concepts, the Warp would instead react by restraining and rendering impotent 'gods' and 'daemons' alike.

**Manchu**

Tadashi wrote:They certainly didn't exist before M2, Imperial Calendar, didn't they?

They may have. There is no fluff on M2. Even assuming M2 is actual history, why would you be so convinced that what was happening on Earth at the time is indicative of the nature of the Warp?

Tadashi wrote:In other words, they are dependent on the material universe.

A conclusion without evidence is not an argument. Here is an example of an argument:

Manchu wrote:There are a few direct, if purposefully contradictory, images of the Warp.
It is a place where gods thrive in constant war, fighting over the raw stuff of anti-creation that birthed them.
C:CD 4th p.4

Here we see that the Chaos Gods arise from the Warp itself. Is it because the Warp is something that is stirred up into Chaos that would otherwise be placid nothingness? That does not seem to be the case:
Warpspace is Chaos, Chaos is Warpspace; the two are indivisible.
C:CD 4th p.6

There was no time in which the Warp was not Chaos, a thing to be catalyzed into what we might recognize as Chaos. Still, we should look further to find if Chaos/the Warp is meaningfully different from the Chaos gods (i.e., if they are just inhabitants of Chaos/the Warp). Again, this does not seem to be the case:
... for if all other Warp Powers were obliterated, the Warp would become a still, unmoving mass and Chaos would no longer exist.
C:CD 4th p.8

Here is a concise statement of the unity of the Chaos Gods and the Warp. The Chaos Gods are the essence of Chaos; without them, there is no Chaos. And we know, from the quotation above, that Chaos and the Warp are the same thing. No Chaos Gods means no Warp. Still, we'd be remiss to say that the Chaos Gods and the Warp are entirely synonymous, given (as you assert) opinions to the contrary. We have, after all, the Eldar narrative of the birth of Slaanesh. Without their Fall, there would be no Slaanesh and we know the Warp existed before their Fall -- therefore, the Chaos Gods must somehow be separate from the Warp, deriving their existence from emotional triggers in real space. The Daemon dex helpfully reminds us that this is just a matter of perspective:
That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe; in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause and effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed.
C:CD 4th p.7

In other words, the Eldar account is just that: the account that makes sense to the Eldar. But Chaos is not something that can be neatly categorized by something as puny as a mere racial myth. The "birth" of Slaanesh, as I said, is better understood as a moment when Slaanesh took significant interest in the Eldar in the realspace inhabited by them. Their fall caught the attention of Slaanesh and allowed Slaanesh to catastrophically interfere with realspace.

**Melissia**

They weren't reacting to the Imperial Truth, but to the Emperor, who was powerful enough to destroy them.

**KamikazeCanuck**

The Eldar gods existed. An Avatar is a splinter of Khaine and Harlequins souls are protected by the only surviving god, the laughing god, to this day.

**Melissia**

As do Gork and Mork, who beat up the other Chaos Gods (including the Eldar ones) like schoolyard bullies.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Everyone's mind/soul registers in the warp, to what degree depends largely on the species. If it is significantly, (I.e. more than a Tau) their beliefs and emotions will manifest in the immaterium and subsequently the "materium" too.

**Manchu**

The Gork and Mork deal is only known to Orks. And Orks' perception of reality can't actually be trusted. Similarly, the only race that seems to recognize the Eldar gods' existence is ... go figure ... the Eldar. In short, we have very little information to go on when it comes to comparing the Ork deities and Eldar deities with the Ruinous Powers. There really is no reason to assume they are different examples of the same type of being.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Since The Laughing God really does protect Harlequinns from Chaos and Gork & Mork really do protect Orks in a Fashion from the other warp beings and an Avatar really is a "good" deamon that is actually summoned with warpcraft there's no reason to assume they are not examples of the same type of thing.

**Tadashi**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Everyone's mind/soul registers in the warp, to what degree depends largely on the species. If it is significantly, (I.e. more than a Tau) their beliefs and emotions will manifest in the immaterium and subsequently the "materium" too.

My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether or not the Chaos Powers existed forever in the context of the Warp, they don't have full control over it, otherwise, the existence of the Ork Gods or the Emperor don't make sense. Believe in something strong enough, and the Warp will react - I've said it before, the instead of creating a 'god' embodying the virtues of Imperial Truth (truth and enlightenment), it will reduce 'gods' and 'daemons' alike to paper tigers because that's what the most numerous sentient species in the galaxy believe, especially once the Emperor begins turning every Human into fully-realized psykers like the Eldar.

**BolingbrokeIV**

Tadashi wrote:Some people have argued that the Imperial Truth would never have worked. But while I agree that in the short-term it didn't work, I believe in the long run it would have. Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist. These so-called 'gods' and 'daemons' are merely energy-based xenos from a parallel universe. They merely feed on the emotions of beings from our universe. If people believed they didn't exist, then the Warp would react to people's belief and make it so - causing the former to revert to mere vortexes of primal emotion with no sentience and the latter into mere embodiments of dreams and nightmares but with no purpose or direction. The biggest evidence for this is the Chaos Power's reaction to the Imperial Truth's spread...if it wouldn't have affected them, why did they react so vehemently, when they have basically largely ignored the material universe until then?

What are your thoughts on the matter?

I think the failing of the imperial truth has little to do with wheter or not Chaos gods are gods are not. As is depicted in the remembrances subplot of the first three horus heresy novels, humanity will turn to faith and idolisation in the face of fear and when their concept of reality is questioned.

For example Hamlet after seeing a ghost: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in our philosophy.", questions the science he firmly believed in.

**Tadashi**

Glorioski wrote:
Tadashi wrote:Some people have argued that the Imperial Truth would never have worked. But while I agree that in the short-term it didn't work, I believe in the long run it would have. Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist. These so-called 'gods' and 'daemons' are merely energy-based xenos from a parallel universe. They merely feed on the emotions of beings from our universe. If people believed they didn't exist, then the Warp would react to people's belief and make it so - causing the former to revert to mere vortexes of primal emotion with no sentience and the latter into mere embodiments of dreams and nightmares but with no purpose or direction. The biggest evidence for this is the Chaos Power's reaction to the Imperial Truth's spread...if it wouldn't have affected them, why did they react so vehemently, when they have basically largely ignored the material universe until then?

What are your thoughts on the matter?

I think the failing of the imperial truth has little to do with wheter or not Chaos gods are gods are not. As is depicted in the first three horus heresy novels. Humanity will turn to faith and idolism in the face of fear and when their concept of reality is questioned.

Ironically, the Imperial Truth required more faith and courage to believe than the Imperial Creed.

**BolingbrokeIV**

Wheras idolisation was a crime (see lorgar for more information).

**Tadashi**

Glorioski wrote:Wheras idolisation was a crime (see lorgar for more information).

Religion was proscribed by the Emperor...the 'faith' of the Imperial Truth was actually rationalization, which in the long-run would certainly have worked.

'Gods' and 'daemons' are just energy-based life forms from another dimension.

Psychic abilities are just channeling this parallel universe to bend/break the laws of physics in our universe.

'Sorcery' is to invoke these beings to do it, but while it can be done without psychic talent, its unreliable either way since it depends on a third party.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Tadashi wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Everyone's mind/soul registers in the warp, to what degree depends largely on the species. If it is significantly, (I.e. more than a Tau) their beliefs and emotions will manifest in the immaterium and subsequently the "materium" too.

My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether or not the Chaos Powers existed forever in the context of the Warp, they don't have full control over it, otherwise, the existence of the Ork Gods or the Emperor don't make sense. Believe in something strong enough, and the Warp will react - I've said it before, the instead of creating a 'god' embodying the virtues of Imperial Truth (truth and enlightenment), it will reduce 'gods' and 'daemons' alike to paper tigers because that's what the most numerous sentient species in the galaxy believe, especially once the Emperor begins turning every Human into fully-realized psykers like the Eldar.

Indeed, by superstitiously calling them daemons you are in a way giving them more power. One of the themes of 40K is that the Imperium's brutal tyranny creates as many daemons as it quashes. Even the Imperial Cult, which is to be its sheild from the demons causes problems because those who fall out with the Imperium fall into any sort of anti-imperial-cult. Better to depower the warp than turn it into a warzone.

**Tadashi**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Everyone's mind/soul registers in the warp, to what degree depends largely on the species. If it is significantly, (I.e. more than a Tau) their beliefs and emotions will manifest in the immaterium and subsequently the "materium" too.

My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether or not the Chaos Powers existed forever in the context of the Warp, they don't have full control over it, otherwise, the existence of the Ork Gods or the Emperor don't make sense. Believe in something strong enough, and the Warp will react - I've said it before, the instead of creating a 'god' embodying the virtues of Imperial Truth (truth and enlightenment), it will reduce 'gods' and 'daemons' alike to paper tigers because that's what the most numerous sentient species in the galaxy believe, especially once the Emperor begins turning every Human into fully-realized psykers like the Eldar.

Indeed, by superstitiously calling them daemons you are in a way giving them more power. One of the themes of 40K is that the Imperium's brutal tyranny creates as many daemons as it quashes. Even the Imperial Cult, which is to be its sheild from the demons causes problems because those who fall out with the Imperium fall into any sort of anti-imperial-cult. Better to depower the warp than turn it into a warzone.

And turning everyone into fully-realized psykers means making them learn IRON self-control over themselves and their minds. Add to that the Imperial Truth and you have the recipe for the deadliest 'poison' against the creatures of the Warp.

**BolingbrokeIV**

Tadashi wrote:
Glorioski wrote:Wheras idolisation was a crime (see lorgar for more information).

Religion was proscribed by the Emperor...the 'faith' of the Imperial Truth was actually rationalization, which in the long-run would certainly have worked.

'Gods' and 'daemons' are just energy-based life forms from another dimension.

Psychic abilities are just channeling this parallel universe to bend/break the laws of physics in our universe.

'Sorcery' is to invoke these beings to do it, but while it can be done without psychic talent, its unreliable either way since it depends on a third party.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Idolising the Emperor was forbidden. The lectio divinatus gained strength during the heresy because of human nature. We will look for a saviour in direst need, it's why even atheists can pray to god when they are in a life threatening situation. A humanity without idols is impossible to maintain.

**Tadashi**

Glorioski wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
Glorioski wrote:Wheras idolisation was a crime (see lorgar for more information).

Religion was proscribed by the Emperor...the 'faith' of the Imperial Truth was actually rationalization, which in the long-run would certainly have worked.

'Gods' and 'daemons' are just energy-based life forms from another dimension.

Psychic abilities are just channeling this parallel universe to bend/break the laws of physics in our universe.

'Sorcery' is to invoke these beings to do it, but while it can be done without psychic talent, its unreliable either way since it depends on a third party.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Idolising the Emperor was forbidden. The lectio divinatus gained strength during the heresy because of human nature. We will look for a saviour in direst need, it's why even atheists can pray to god when they are in a life threatening situation. A humanity without idols is impossible to maintain.

Oh I understand all right. Basically, the Emperor told people not to believe in a divine or demonic third party, but in themselves and in the innate strength and potential of the Human race. Personally, I believe in the existence of God, but I also believe He leaves Humans and other sentient beings (if any in the REAL world) to control their lives and make their own destinies. Otherwise, what's the point of giving free will in the first place?

**BolingbrokeIV**

Tadashi wrote:
I don't think you understand what I am saying. Idolising the Emperor was forbidden. The lectio divinatus gained strength during the heresy because of human nature. We will look for a saviour in direst need, it's why even atheists can pray to god when they are in a life threatening situation. A humanity without idols is impossible to maintain.

Oh I understand all right. Basically, the Emperor told people not to believe in a divine or demonic third party, but in themselves and in the innate strength and potential of the Human race.

Clearly you don't and are having trouble.

To put it plainly. The Emperor told people not to idolise him. Something which is impossible due to human nature. That is why the imperial truth was always doomed to fail. It's got nothing to do with anything you raise in your original post.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Tadashi wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Everyone's mind/soul registers in the warp, to what degree depends largely on the species. If it is significantly, (I.e. more than a Tau) their beliefs and emotions will manifest in the immaterium and subsequently the "materium" too.

My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether or not the Chaos Powers existed forever in the context of the Warp, they don't have full control over it, otherwise, the existence of the Ork Gods or the Emperor don't make sense. Believe in something strong enough, and the Warp will react - I've said it before, the instead of creating a 'god' embodying the virtues of Imperial Truth (truth and enlightenment), it will reduce 'gods' and 'daemons' alike to paper tigers because that's what the most numerous sentient species in the galaxy believe, especially once the Emperor begins turning every Human into fully-realized psykers like the Eldar.

Indeed, by superstitiously calling them daemons you are in a way giving them more power. One of the themes of 40K is that the Imperium's brutal tyranny creates as many daemons as it quashes. Even the Imperial Cult, which is to be its sheild from the demons causes problems because those who fall out with the Imperium fall into any sort of anti-imperial-cult. Better to depower the warp than turn it into a warzone.

And turning everyone into fully-realized psykers means making them learn IRON self-control over themselves and their minds. Add to that the Imperial Truth and you have the recipe for the deadliest 'poison' against the creatures of the Warp.

Eh, I've heard that theory before. Having every human be a psyker makes me a little nervous. I know the theory is they will be able to prevent daemonic incursion through team effort but things have a way of getting fethed up big time in 40K. I think it would just lead to galactic extinction when the warp eats the entire milky way in one big bite.