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Thing is it's all very well making a breach (which the DKoK can do very well with their masses of artillery) but then you need the troops to take the breach. A breach in a fortification, as history has shown, becomes a meat-grinder very quickly, hence the old adage of needing 3:1 to beat the defender, 5:1 in an establish position, 10:1 in a fortified position. The horrors of climbing up a pile of rubble to go between the shoulders of broken wall with explosions going off around you, shots plucking men back, the stench of blood, explosives, firearms stinging the nostrils, is not a pleasant experience. In order to carry a breach you need troops who won't stop moving forward, who will ignore the losses & press on, who will be willing to drown the enemy in their bodies so that those who follow-on can capture the position - hence why the Death Korp are the best siege troops the Imperium has & they fully deserve that accolade. They have the numbers, the equipment, the know-how & the zealous determination to carry the day.

(By the way, like your OW character link in your sig - just been mapping out the...maps for my chaps first mission with the OW beta.)

Exalted.

Lynata wrote:You're right, this was changed in-between editions.

Old Codex: All troops recruited from a planet at one time form a single regiment. Back then, this was taken as an explanation on why regiments vary in size.
New Codex: Depending on the world's tithe grade, more than one regiment may be recruited. The new explanation for varying regimental sizes is their effective combat power, so that a regiment of Cadian Shock Troops has the same strategic value as a regiment of Randomworld Farmer Conscripts - the latter will just have lots more men to make up for lack in training and equipment.

My bad!

Still, I'm a bit miffed at someone at Forgeworld discarding the CJ army list and Andy Hoare's drop-podding Sisters.
That, and I think the Munitorum's own Sapper Regiment should hold the IG trophy of breaching fortifications in the most efficient way.

The DkoK has it's own engineering corps which are super hardcore. It's not unusual for them to spend years digging underground to break a seige. Quite frankly, it's ridiculus to not refer to FW about DKoK stuff. The Sisters aren't discounted; they're army is very nice and fancy but the Munitorium is basing this on straight up war-record. The DkoK are the best. Unleashing the Death Korps is like deploying a weapon of mass destruction.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Thing is it's all very well making a breach (which the DKoK can do very well with their masses of artillery) but then you need the troops to take the breach. A breach in a fortification, as history has shown, becomes a meat-grinder very quickly, hence the old adage of needing 3:1 to beat the defender, 5:1 in an establish position, 10:1 in a fortified position. The horrors of climbing up a pile of rubble to go between the shoulders of broken wall with explosions going off around you, shots plucking men back, the stench of blood, explosives, firearms stinging the nostrils, is not a pleasant experience. In order to carry a breach you need troops who won't stop moving forward, who will ignore the losses & press on, who will be willing to drown the enemy in their bodies so that those who follow-on can capture the position - hence why the Death Korp are the best siege troops the Imperium has & they fully deserve that accolade. They have the numbers, the equipment, the know-how & the zealous determination to carry the day.

You make a very convincing argument.
And I suppose drop-podding might not exactly count as breaching, anyways.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:By the way, like your OW character link in your sig - just been mapping out the...maps for my chaps first mission with the OW beta.

Thanks!
We'll run our 2nd session in just a few minutes. Gotta hold that trench!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Sisters aren't discounted; they're army is very nice and fancy but the Munitorium is basing this on straight up war-record.

Nah, the FW writers just have a habit of forgetting them. A Rogue Cardinal of the Ecclesiarchy, and the one force that has policing such cases in their main job description doesn't show up? Please.

Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards

And that's if they are lucky. They are off to fight some abomination unto God, that could easily shrug off almost anything, and easily rip a man in half.

@Lynata As you know but have forgotten there was quite a turf war between Ordo Herectus and Ordo Malleus that Malleus won and so GKs were deployed.

Anyways I didn't know SoBs could even use Drop Pods. Is that in the WD pseudo-dex?

The game itself also lends misconceptions to the Guard fluff. I mean the average Guardsmen sucks on the table top. But, in the fluff there are many Guardsmen/units that are bad ass. Hell Gunny Sargent Harker broke a genestealers neck bare handed. Marbo, can kill fething anything, Commissar Yarrick, Commissar Guant, Commissar Cain, Ollanius Pius, Vance melon-fething Stubbs. Here is a good link that shows how bad ass the Guard can be. http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Imperial_Guard

Makarov wrote:The game itself also lends misconceptions to the Guard fluff. I mean the average Guardsmen sucks on the table top. But, in the fluff there are many Guardsmen/units that are bad ass. Hell Gunny Sargent Harker broke a genestealers neck bare handed. Marbo, can kill fething anything, Commissar Yarrick, Commissar Guant, Commissar Cain, Ollanius Pius, Vance melon-fething Stubbs. Here is a good link that shows how bad ass the Guard can be. http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Imperial_Guard

Not only that but if you look at the stats of a single guardsmen and compare it to the units of many other more "elite" factions, you'll notice many similarities, especially the base line 3 stats. For instance, lets look at Inquisitorial Henchmen, they have the same exact stats as a guardsmen but the only thing setting them apart is their storm bolter. In addition, the cheapest eldar troop choice(forgot the name) also has base line 3 stats with the exception of their initiative 4 and str 4 weapon. Also, Space Marine Scouts and blood claws have the same combat prowess as regular guardsmen as well with their ws 3 and bs 3 despite recieving much harsher training and testing before getting their black carapace.

Of course, table top stats don't 100% represent fluff but that could work both ways.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:@Lynata As you know but have forgotten there was quite a turf war between Ordo Herectus and Ordo Malleus that Malleus won and so GKs were deployed.

Yeah, but the Sisters have always been working for the Church first, Inquisition second. The Ordo Hereticus could've stayed out and I would have expected a force of Sororitas either way, simply because we're talking about an Apostate Cardinal here.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anyways I didn't know SoBs could even use Drop Pods. Is that in the WD pseudo-dex?

If only...
No, that was a special Strike Force list from GW's Citadel Journal, in an article written by Andy Hoare. It represented a task force specifically geared towards purging a Marine Chapter, and they featured Dominica- and Deathwind-pattern drop pods to deliver the hurts extra-quick. The article stressed the primary mission goal as being the elimination of the Chapter's leadership. Kind of what was attempted with the Sons of Malice I guess.

I actually considered taking a bunch of Marines as allies for 6E just to get drop pods, but then noticed that allies can never share transports.

Makarov wrote:But, in the fluff there are many Guardsmen/units that are bad ass. Hell Gunny Sargent Harker broke a genestealers neck bare handed. Marbo, can kill fething anything, Commissar Yarrick, Commissar Guant, Commissar Cain, Ollanius Pius, Vance melon-fething Stubbs.

I'll never accept Cain as "fitting in", but when you're talking badass Guardsmen, don't forget Colonel Straken - the man who strangled a CSM Lord!
Shame that Ollanius Pius had to be retconned from GW's version of events, tho.

On a related note, we failed to hold that trench. Our Comrade-Sergeant fell first, then the whole squad went down one by one. We had some really bad luck with our explosives (grenades rolling back, missiles misfiring) and the Orks were particularly agile this night.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle him in the HH novels, since they introduced him in Know No Fear.

Lynata wrote:And I suppose drop-podding might not exactly count as breaching, anyways.

Well it does, in it's own way, as it bypasses defences such as walls. Problem is delivering enough troops to make the difference.

Lynata wrote:Thanks!
We'll run our 2nd session in just a few minutes. Gotta hold that trench!

I've got to wait a few weeks until I can run my campaign Need to finish a Black Crusade one and a DnD campaign first. Really want to throw the chaps into a 'Cockleshell Commandos meets Guns of Navarone' mission.

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Sisters aren't discounted; they're army is very nice and fancy but the Munitorium is basing this on straight up war-record.

Nah, the FW writers just have a habit of forgetting them. A Rogue Cardinal of the Ecclesiarchy, and the one force that has policing such cases in their main job description doesn't show up? Please.

Maybe they were told not to put Sisters & Hereticus into Vraks? Afterall GW must proof read the Imperial Armour books otherwise FW could be saying all sorts of things without GWs approval, especially as it was a few years ago when GW seemed to be trying to fade out the Sisters. We'll never find out but yes it is peculiar that the Ordo Hereticus & the Sororitas don't turn up and do their thing. Mind you having the Sisters swoop in & take out the arch-heretic is not so dramatic as 14 million or so Korpsmen dieing to take back the planet yard by bloody yard.

There was a small detachment of Sisters of the Argent Shroud on Vraks protecting the Shrine, remains and relics of St Leonis.

During the early stage of the rebellion, they tried to resist but were overwhelmed by a combination of treachery of the Cardinal himself and superior numbers.

Several were captured, tortured and imprisoned. Six survived the 18 year Siege and became a source of huge debate and issue between elements of the Inquisition. They were condemned by the Conclave of Scarus to the outrage of several Ordo Herecticus Inquisitors. The book implies this was partly politics between the Ordo Malleus and Herecticus

The Sisters were subsequently known as the "Matryrs of Vraks" and the Order of the Argent Shroud considered it a criminal act. The relics of Saint Leonis were not recovered either.

Regarding direct assault - the Astartes considered the citidel far too difficult to assault directly without loss of all ships and marines involved so the same would likely hold true for the Sisters.

I completely forgot about them! I focus so much on the Death Korp that they completely slipped my mind.

Mr Morden wrote:

Regarding direct assault - the Astartes considered the citidel far too difficult to assault directly without loss of all ships and marines involved so the same would likely hold true for the Sisters.

Indeed, IIRC 1/3rd of the Dark Angels chapter died on Vraks (I think they came in with 500 DA's and left with 200 or something like that? don't have my book here at work...) during their short lived assault on the spaceport, far from the DKoK's main battle lines. Though, to me, that's exactly the sort of actions marines are for (and also shows why the Astartes aren't what many think they are).

The issue with the Sisters isn't that they aren't capable, but there aren't many of them and they lack a lot of capabilities. They work well as elite shock infantry, but they really don't have the capabilities to engage in battles like the Imperial Guard, having no AA guns, no Artillery or similar support weapons, relatively little in the way of Armour, very limited long range anti-tank capabilities, no sappers, etc. They simply do not have the numbers or capabilities within their Orders for certain types of battles.

Mr Morden wrote:There was a small detachment of Sisters of the Argent Shroud on Vraks protecting the Shrine, remains and relics of St Leonis.

Frankly, that doesn't count in my eyes - it's even more worse than omitting them entirely, as it once again stresses that, apparently, all they're good for is dying and getting tortured. It's business as usual, just so that the Spess Mehreens can show how awesome they are.

It just doesn't make a lot of sense that the Ecclesiarchy itself did not care for the issue at all when one of their Cardinals goes rogue.

Fits to Forgeworld's "extensive" range of products for the SoB compared to every other Imperial army, though.

Vaktathi wrote:The issue with the Sisters isn't that they aren't capable, but there aren't many of them and they lack a lot of capabilities. They work well as elite shock infantry, but they really don't have the capabilities to engage in battles like the Imperial Guard, having no AA guns, no Artillery or similar support weapons, relatively little in the way of Armour, very limited long range anti-tank capabilities, no sappers, etc. They simply do not have the numbers or capabilities within their Orders for certain types of battles.

True, but you could say the same of the Space Marines. That's what I find weird - either we're talking "rapid insertion" in which the difference between Sisters and Marines is comparatively small, or we're talking siege warfare, in which (with the exception of a few specialized Chapters like the Iron Hands) the Astartes should be less suitable than the DKoK. But maybe it was just the usual "Marines must be #1 no matter what" rule.

Lynata wrote:True, but you could say the same of the Space Marines. That's what I find weird - either we're talking "rapid insertion" in which the difference between Sisters and Marines is comparatively small, or we're talking siege warfare, in which (with the exception of a few specialized Chapters like the Iron Hands) the Astartes should be less suitable than the DKoK. But maybe it was just the usual "Marines must be #1 no matter what" rule.

I don't disagree at all, the Space Marines realistically would be unable to fight many, if not most, of the battles they are portrayed as fighting, they have neither the numbers nor required organic capabilities (and, superhuman or no, can't be in multiple places at once either). No SM chapter (or chapterS) is going to be able to *conquer* a well defended world, at least not one that has any sort of redundant command structure, with a thousand (or even a few thousand) marines against and opponent with millions (or tens of millions/hundreds of millions/etc) of troops, and laying siege to hive cities with hundreds of millions of people with but a thousand marines is ridiculous, but in the end, it is, as you say, Marines #1.

Cool, we are in agreement!

Thinking about it, I suppose one could make the argument that the Munitorum's opinion doesn't have to be very objective. I mean, most likely we're talking pencil pushers (seeing as they have to be in the position to believe they'd be able to compare Imperial forces with each other) who have never actually witnessed the Space Marines in action themselves and rely on public perception. Given how the Imperial bureaucracy works, I doubt that they could compare accurate and objective statistics. Even if they'd have these (which I doubt), they prolly wouldn't be able to find them!

I believe this has been scaled back a little to make the Marines appear more awesome, but I've always rolled with the 2E IG Codex' description of the Astartes being awesome as a rapid reaction force, yet the Guard having to step in once a battle becomes too big. It just makes the most sense to me, and is (or so I believe) a good narrative balance between the various Imperial forces. It just makes the IG seem more important than some sort of auxiliary troops people only want around if there's no Marines nearby.

What are we agreeing on? That Space Marines aren't good at war now? No, I don't agree with that. Once again the Vraks trilogy shows a good example of how Space Marines deal with a situation like that. The Dark Angels strike a furious assualt upon the space port killing many thousands of enemy troops. Their main advantage against superior numbers besides the shock of their attack is that they never tire. The are never not on the offensive for one second. When Marines fight for a week they fight for every second of that 168 hours and that's very difficult to deal with for the enemy.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are we agreeing on? That Space Marines aren't good at war now? No, I don't agree with that.

Sorry, I was replying to Vaktathi with that.

Also, "war" is a pretty general and all-encompassing term. If you think that, just for the Space Marines, this includes any subset such as, say, sieges and trench warfare and wars of attrition, and that they have to be the best one for each, then ... well, that'd be your interpretation of them, and much of the more current fluff would agree with you. Some of us prefer every faction having strengths and weaknesses, though, especially when they have been pointed out in the fluff before and where they make perfect sense.

Yes, and Marines are bad at prolonged wars of attrition but good at breaching defenses and attacking fortified positions.

See, and if we're referring to drop podding in from above rather than breaking down the front door, then so are the Sisters.

There's little difference in how both forces are employed, so I just don't agree on the idea that the SoB are left out of the equation entirely and continue to believe that, quite simply, none of the writers at Forge World just has a high opinion of them or is aware of even half the fluff GW wrote about that army.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are we agreeing on? That Space Marines aren't good at war now? No, I don't agree with that. Once again the Vraks trilogy shows a good example of how Space Marines deal with a situation like that. The Dark Angels strike a furious assualt upon the space port killing many thousands of enemy troops. Their main advantage against superior numbers besides the shock of their attack is that they never tire. The are never not on the offensive for one second. When Marines fight for a week they fight for every second of that 168 hours and that's very difficult to deal with for the enemy.

To be fair, the statement "Marines aren't good at War" is, or really should be, true. They are good at conducting *battles*, they have neither the numbers, organic capabilities, or supply systems to conduct a full blown war by themselves. They lack significant artillery assets, especially heavy artillery, have very few answers to enemy aircraft (especially in any numbers, and if they've got a half-decent range), and any extensive anti-orbital defense system will make it very difficult for SM ships to stay in close orbit for support, especially given their typically small deployment, and very little in the way of logistical support for extended operations. And Emperor help them if the enemy has extensive amounts of armor, if they have to face lots of tanks on a scale like that seen during the 2nd world war (i.e. pitifully small for the 40k universe), they just don't have enough AT weapons, and can't cover enough ground to prevent themselves from being outflanked/surrounded/bypassed/etc.

Yes, Space Marines can fight on for extended periods of time relative to what a normal human can remain in direct combat for, but don't have the same supply capabilities that the IG do. The SM's would have a very difficult time remaining supplied with ammunition for instance in a battle going more than a few days, especially if not constantly resupplied from their ship.

Yes the Dark Angels killed many thousands of heretic troops on Vraks. Those heretic troops deaths were irrelevant in terms of the strength of the enemy, while the Dark Angels, as a Chapter, was reduced in size to what would by any modern military estimate be considered broken and in dire need of immediate withdrawal for reinforcement, a third of their chapter will never leave Vraks after but a few short days of battle in an 18 year long war that ended with twenty million dead. (IIRC 12 million dead Imperial troops, 8 million dead Vraksian inhabitants).

The Dark Angels accomplished a task in very short order that would have taken the Death Korps and unacceptable amount of time to accomplish. But they fought one battle and left. They did not fight a war.

And to be fair, that's exactly what Space Marines should be, the only problem is that half the time the SM's are portrayed doing what the Death Korps was doing on Vraks like it's no big deal, and there realistically just aren't enough Marines, and they aren't present in enough in enough places, to have the effect they are described as having

Vaktathi wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are we agreeing on? That Space Marines aren't good at war now? No, I don't agree with that. Once again the Vraks trilogy shows a good example of how Space Marines deal with a situation like that. The Dark Angels strike a furious assualt upon the space port killing many thousands of enemy troops. Their main advantage against superior numbers besides the shock of their attack is that they never tire. The are never not on the offensive for one second. When Marines fight for a week they fight for every second of that 168 hours and that's very difficult to deal with for the enemy.

To be fair, the statement "Marines aren't good at War" is, or really should be, true. They are good at conducting *battles*, they have neither the numbers, organic capabilities, or supply systems to conduct a full blown war by themselves. They lack significant artillery assets, especially heavy artillery, have very few answers to enemy aircraft (especially in any numbers, and if they've got a half-decent range), and any extensive anti-orbital defense system will make it very difficult for SM ships to stay in close orbit for support, especially given their typically small deployment, and very little in the way of logistical support for extended operations. And Emperor help them if the enemy has extensive amounts of armor, if they have to face lots of tanks on a scale like that seen during the 2nd world war (i.e. pitifully small for the 40k universe), they just don't have enough AT weapons, and can't cover enough ground to prevent themselves from being outflanked/surrounded/bypassed/etc.

Yes, Space Marines can fight on for extended periods of time relative to what a normal human can remain in direct combat for, but don't have the same supply capabilities that the IG do. The SM's would have a very difficult time remaining supplied with ammunition for instance in a battle going more than a few days, especially if not constantly resupplied from their ship.

Yes the Dark Angels killed many thousands of heretic troops on Vraks. Those heretic troops deaths were irrelevant in terms of the strength of the enemy, while the Dark Angels, as a Chapter, was reduced in size to what would by any modern military estimate be considered broken and in dire need of immediate withdrawal for reinforcement, a third of their chapter will never leave Vraks after but a few short days of battle in an 18 year long war that ended with twenty million dead. (IIRC 12 million dead Imperial troops, 8 million dead Vraksian inhabitants).

The Dark Angels accomplished a task in very short order that would have taken the Death Korps and unacceptable amount of time to accomplish. But they fought one battle and left. They did not fight a war.

And to be fair, that's exactly what Space Marines should be, the only problem is that half the time the SM's are portrayed doing what the Death Korps was doing on Vraks like it's no big deal, and there realistically just aren't enough Marines, and they aren't present in enough in enough places, to have the effect they are described as having

Most of that is reasonable however I'd disagree that Marines have trouble dealing with armour or orbital defense. Attacking a position with strong orbital defense is their specialty, arguably their purpose. Battle Barges are good at that. SM carry around heavy weapons like normal rifles and armour doesn't pose a greater threat to them than other forces. Obviously, they are weak in artillery and air assets. That battle showed Marines do have good logistical supply chains for protracted battles. It's most likely drop based.

As for the causalties, yes they took an astounding amount of casualties. Hundreds as you say. That is why FW stuff is good. The DAs were very effective at what they did but they paid the price too. They didn't just swoop down like Superman and oabsolutely obliterate everything. It was a more realistic portrayal of the combat effectiveness of Space Marines. Not invincible but still very effective.

The DAs didn't withdrawl because of causalties but because their mission was complete. In fact they didn't even remark that the causalties were that worrying which makes me think that Chapters taking those kinds of losses in massive wars like Vraks isn't that unusual. The Raptors had a similarily realistic portrayal in the Taros campaign.
Also a lot of other chapters would have stayed on and tried to break other strongpoints but y'know that's not how Dark Angels roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:See, and if we're referring to drop podding in from above rather than breaking down the front door, then so are the Sisters.

There's little difference in how both forces are employed, so I just don't agree on the idea that the SoB are left out of the equation entirely and continue to believe that, quite simply, none of the writers at Forge World just has a high opinion of them or is aware of even half the fluff GW wrote about that army.

I'm sorry but if I had to pick an Imperial force (and there are many) that had the worst war record in the Imperium it would be the Sisters of Battle. I mean really, how many wins do they actually have on record? Two? Three?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Most of that is reasonable however I'd disagree that Marines have trouble dealing with armour or orbital defense. Attacking a position with strong orbital defense is their specialty, arguably their purpose.

And yet the defenses of Vraks, a relatively minor outpost compared with many worlds, were extensive enough that no Space Marine Chapter would take on the job until long after the Guard landed and even then engaged largely away from the front lines and the well protected (in terms of AA and AO capability) Citadel itself.

Battle Barges are good at that.

Battle Barges are good at pounding landing zones and ground defenses into dust, if big ground based guns are shooting back, then their ability to do that is imperiled and trying to bombard something that's shooting right back is a big risk. Yes, they can do it to some degree, but a single Battle Barge, or even several, are not going to engage a well defended planet on their own. The Vraks citadel by itself was powerful enough that no SM chapter would take it on, and it wasn't by any means the mightiest fortress of the galaxy, it was considered by the Munitorum to be a necessary sideshow that they eventually just wrote-off as a loss and went about business as usual.

SM carry around heavy weapons like normal rifles

Not quite, they carry them around much easier yes, but they are still cumbersome, typically requiring an SM to brace while stationary to fire them with any accuracy.

and armour doesn't pose a greater threat to them than other forces.

Other forces, by which I mean the IG, have the numbers and bigger guns to deal with armor. If an SM company is faced against a full battallion of armor, then there is going to be an issue if for every marine there's an enemy battle tank and the only way most SM's have to hurt a tank requires them to literally climb on top of it, which, unless the tanks are very stupidly trying to drive into a city or dense forest without infantry support, is not likely to happen.

Obviously, they are weak in artillery and air assets. That battle showed Marines do have good logistical supply chains for protracted battles. It's most likely drop based.

I don't recall anything about marine re-supply in most SM fiction, they usually aren't anywhere long enough for it to matter or just never address it, and given the often isolated/cell-like nature of battle companies and the like, it doesn't sound like their ships resupply except upon return to their homeworld typically. If they exhaust the supplies aboard their vessel, or their vessel is driven off/AA defenses prevent drops, they really don't appear to have much alternative, whereas the Munitorum will have vessels constantly on route to warzones with fresh supplies and much more capability with the Imperial Navy to suppress enemy aircraft/anti-orbital defenses.

As for the causalties, yes they took an astounding amount of casualties. Hundreds as you say. That is why FW stuff is good. The DAs were very effective at what they did but they paid the price too. They didn't just swoop down like Superman and oabsolutely obliterate everything. It was a more realistic portrayal of the combat effectiveness of Space Marines. Not invincible but still very effective.

Yup, it was an excellent portrayal of what the SM's should be.

The DAs didn't withdrawl because of causalties but because their mission was complete.

True, but had they taken significantly more casualties there wouldn't have been much left to withdraw with, leaving half the Dark Angels chapter dead in the sand of Vraks. As it is, it's difficult to see isolated chapters of insular warrior-monks who take many years to create and train, keeping pace with such casualties and maintaining operations, especially if average lifespans are as long as they're made out to be. If your numbers are limited to 1000 marines and it takes years to train replacements, losing 300 dudes is going to hurt a lot, and take a very long time to replenish.

In fact they didn't even remark that the causalties were that worrying which makes me think that Chapters taking those kinds of losses in massive wars like Vraks isn't that unusual.

or that the author just didn't realize its significance. Replacing 300 Space Marines takes quite a bit of time that most authors just don't think of or don't address.

Vaktathi wrote:

Lynata wrote:True, but you could say the same of the Space Marines. That's what I find weird - either we're talking "rapid insertion" in which the difference between Sisters and Marines is comparatively small, or we're talking siege warfare, in which (with the exception of a few specialized Chapters like the Iron Hands) the Astartes should be less suitable than the DKoK. But maybe it was just the usual "Marines must be #1 no matter what" rule.

I don't disagree at all, the Space Marines realistically would be unable to fight many, if not most, of the battles they are portrayed as fighting, they have neither the numbers nor required organic capabilities (and, superhuman or no, can't be in multiple places at once either). No SM chapter (or chapterS) is going to be able to *conquer* a well defended world, at least not one that has any sort of redundant command structure, with a thousand (or even a few thousand) marines against and opponent with millions (or tens of millions/hundreds of millions/etc) of troops, and laying siege to hive cities with hundreds of millions of people with but a thousand marines is ridiculous, but in the end, it is, as you say, Marines #1.

Well, it all depends doesn't it? Do they really need to put boots on the ground and strangle every last enemy to death with their bare hands?

Or can they just fire a few lances from the edge of the system, obliterate a few cities to make a point, and call it a day?

Warfare isn't about killing the other guy, it's about making the other guy do what you want. Take Japan in WWII for example, after the Americans dropped the bombs, they didn't need to launch lengthy, protracted and bloody ground campaigns to annihilate the enemy. They'd made their point, and the Japanese surrendered.

Hive cities would be particularly vulnerable to blockades, with their huge populations and tiny resource output. You'd only need to stop a fraction of the incoming supply ships, and the starving people inside the hives would quickly do your job for you.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm sorry but if I had to pick an Imperial force (and there are many) that had the worst war record in the Imperium it would be the Sisters of Battle. I mean really, how many wins do they actually have on record? Two? Three?

Eh, depends on which sources you want to go by. And whether you want to let lack of writer interest overwrite the capabilities they have according to their background.

Kaldor wrote:Warfare isn't about killing the other guy, it's about making the other guy do what you want. Take Japan in WWII for example, after the Americans dropped the bombs, they didn't need to launch lengthy, protracted and bloody ground campaigns to annihilate the enemy. They'd made their point, and the Japanese surrendered.

Whilst that is true, I recall it being said somewhere that this is actually standard procedure and that the really big operations only happen when the IoM wants to capture the area relatively intact. Wasn't Vraks some huge important fuel depot or am I confusing it with another story now?

Kaldor wrote:Hive cities would be particularly vulnerable to blockades, with their huge populations and tiny resource output. You'd only need to stop a fraction of the incoming supply ships, and the starving people inside the hives would quickly do your job for you.

Good point. Kinda makes you wonder why the Imperium - as far as I'm aware - has never done this in the fluff. On the other hand, with so many yummy civilians on a hive world, it might take months or even years for a Chaos or Ork force to actually go hungry, and in this time they'll go on summoning more demons (if Chaos) or building more war machines (if Orks).

Chaos does have the ability to create warp rifts. Even small localized ones could be used to bring in supplies(i think this has been done before)

Hive Cities do have waste recycling centers to process waste and make Corpse Starch. Its not great and thats why they do import stuff normally, but in an emergency situation they won't starve. Basically Hives can last as long as their power supply is intact. Potentially indefinitly.

Not to mention Riots are fairly common place in the Imperium. You can be sure the lower levels are easily sealed off from the upper levels. It would literally be impossable for those below to make it to the upper levels in any numbers capable of actually posing a threat. Unless they decided to destroy the supports. In which case the entire city would collapse.

Kaldor wrote:

Well, it all depends doesn't it? Do they really need to put boots on the ground and strangle every last enemy to death with their bare hands?

In 40k...usually

Or can they just fire a few lances from the edge of the system, obliterate a few cities to make a point, and call it a day?

While theoretically it should be possible, firing lances from the edge of a star system would be very difficult and not something I've ever heard of in 40k.

Warfare isn't about killing the other guy, it's about making the other guy do what you want. Take Japan in WWII for example, after the Americans dropped the bombs, they didn't need to launch lengthy, protracted and bloody ground campaigns to annihilate the enemy. They'd made their point, and the Japanese surrendered.

Well, to be fair, their air force had been destroyed, their navy all but annihilated, their merchant fleets sunk almost to the last ship, their entire national oil reserves less than that of a single carrier battle group's monthly consumption, half their army was in China and Manchuria and about a third of it was already dead, their industrial capability destroyed and their largest cities in ruins...and the thing most people forget is that the Japanese had been anticipating and preparing for war with Russia almost exclusively up until basically 1941, they had a lot of their troops, including many of their best, in Manchuria, and in between the bombs the Soviets invaded and swept through them like as if they were nothing in and took a million prisoners in a couple of days, which to the Japanese government lent at least as much weight as the nuclear bombs did.

So...there was a bit more going on there, and aside from their ground forces (which were scattered and ravaged and much of them unable to make it back), they basically had destroyed everything to the last already.

Hive cities would be particularly vulnerable to blockades, with their huge populations and tiny resource output. You'd only need to stop a fraction of the incoming supply ships, and the starving people inside the hives would quickly do your job for you.

Space Marines are not good at blockades, they simply do not have the numbers for that, gaps would be incredibly easy to find when your foe is likely less then 1000 (or less than a couple hundred in most case) strong, and Hive cities can sustain themselves for long periods of time in many cases.

Vaktathi wrote:In 40k...usually

Well, yes but then we have to assume we're going with suspect fluff justifications for their actions. I mean, with the tools and vehicles available to the Imperium, the IG should be almost totally redundant. When you can scour a planet to the bedrock from orbit, having to put boots on the ground seems unnecessary. IMO, if we're basically saying 'just because' when we ask ourselves why the IG are fighting ground battles, then the same answer is good enough when we ask ourselves how Marines fight and win those ground battles.

Space Marines are not good at blockades, they simply do not have the numbers for that, gaps would be incredibly easy to find when your foe is likely less then 1000 (or less than a couple hundred in most case) strong, and Hive cities can sustain themselves for long periods of time in many cases.

I'm talking about naval blockades. And Astartes operational fleets are more than capable of that, I reckon. They have the ability to detect, intercept and destroy any inbound supply ships (assuming they have space superiority, even just locally) and they'd only need to actually intercept a tiny fraction of inbound ships. With billions of people compressed into those Hives, already living on the edge, it would only take one or two days before the entire population tore itself apart.

Of course, that all just raises further questions. Why would the Astartes be attacking a Hive World? And who would be supplying that hive world? There's an easier way for the Imperium to stop Hive Worlds from seceding: Simply stop feeding them!

To my mind the Astartes are the first responders of the Imperium. While the IG need a lot of time, dedicated resources and inter-departmental communication to begin to respond to a distress call, the Astartes are all ready to go, loaded in their own ships and not tied down by the ponderous bureaucracy of the Imperium. If they receive a distress call in the morning, they can be en route by lunch time.

And when they get there they are smart enough, and capable enough, to know the best way to disrupt the enemy. They have the tools to fight naval engagements (I think I worked out once that the Astartes navy is roughly the same size as the entire Imperial navy, from some BFG sources...) and perform their famous lightning strikes on the ground, eliminating vital enemy emplacements and convoys, or retrieving sacred artifacts or people of interest, and generally making themselves a thorn in the enemies side until the IG can get there.

IG's going boots on the planet because blowing the planet is generally a bad choice.