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What I notice from a lot of people is that they think all the Imperial Guard does is send 1000000 men and tanks out into the open and hope that they take a tiny stretch of land back and if they find out about Chaos, then they are executed(even if they only fight a traitor milita unit)

and people think that this applies to every single regiment in every single battle, completely ignoring the existence of the Tanith First and Only, Elysian Drop troops, Catachans etc

Essentially, they're also a Special Forces IG is not fluffy at all and anything not WW1 esque is not fluffy either

Also they tend to think that IG has no training and are just regular human beings given a lasgun and shipped off(off which also completely false as they receive 4 months of training which is the equivalent of the USMC's basic)

Ehhh ... IG aren't all that great either ...

Well the front of the Codex, ridiculous characters like Chenkov and the book 15 hours don't really do the Guard any favours in that respect.

But I agree. It's only logical to think that the vast majority of guard regiments are well trained units because of the vast amounts of time they will spend shipping out from their planet to a warzone. Even if on induction into the Guard they are a complete novice unit, after 4 + months in a transport with nothing but training to do they are going to be pretty well drilled. And whilst the Imperium would probably rather lose more men than some of it's more precious war machines, throwing men away needlessly wouldn't be sensisble and just doesn't make sense from a human perspective. Just because it's the Imperium it doesn't mean all the commanders would be completely blasé about their soldiers.

Manchu wrote:Ehhh ... IG aren't all that great either ...

Of course they are. The Imperial Guard spends most of it's time fighting other human forces (secessionist, renegade forces and so on) and after that Orks. Lots of Orks.

Edit: Only small pockets will end up fighting Tau or Tyranids. Very few will ever see the Eldar or a Necron. Not many will even come up against a few Traitor Astartes, let alone large numbers of them.

Romer wrote:... throwing men away needlessly wouldn't be sensisble and just doesn't make sense from a human perspective.

Tell it to the French General Staff in 1916.

Manchu wrote:

Romer wrote:... throwing men away needlessly wouldn't be sensisble and just doesn't make sense from a human perspective.

Tell it to the French General Staff in 1916.

WW1 tactics was a byproduct of firepower radically increasing compared to maneuverability. Tactics hadn't yet caught up and those with new ideas often weren't given sufficient chance (that Canadian bloke springs to mind).

The Imperium should have no such problem. The Guard has tanks, transports, drop ships, air support, artillery and infantry of all varieties, It has the tools to do more than just drown the enemies guns in blood.

Romer wrote:It has the tools to do more than just drown the enemies guns in blood.

Sure but that doesn't exclude drowning the enemies in blood.

You can justify both versions. It's just what your preference is.

Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards

The problem is that the IG, much like everything else in 40k, are written to be many different contradictory things at the same time. They are both cannon fodder and the elite. Depends on who's writing them and what world they are from. Sometimes they are the cream of their worlds military forces, the top 10% of the PDF and lavishly equipped with armor and tanks and arcane weaponry, other times they are raised from anyone who can be drafted and given lasguns and run in front of tanks to clear minefields, other times they have been raised from birth in military cultures with the full knowledge that their lives will end in the service of the Imperial Guard (Cadia, Krieg, etc) and as such are very well trained and dedicated.

In general however, the IG are the best of mankinds forces, better trained, equipped and led than the larger PDF's of each world, and brought in when others can't do the job. This often isn't portrayed correctly, most of the time, the IG *ARE* the Marines/Cavalry/etc, coming in to save the day as the PDF is overwhlemed. Most of the time what really should be PDF are labelled as Guard by most authors.


Like anything else in 40k however, their nature depends on who the author is. Hence why Space Marines can be just big heavy infantry or they can be almost literal gods of war.

Manchu wrote:

Romer wrote:... throwing men away needlessly wouldn't be sensisble and just doesn't make sense from a human perspective.

Tell it to the French General Staff in 1916.

One will notice this traumatized them greatly and forced changes in staff and tactics due to running out of men and revolt amongst the ranks, and hurt so bad on a cultural level it paralyzed them in the next war.

Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities.

Only in the fluff people bother writing about. 99.9% of the Guard's battles are against rebel human worlds, independent worlds, relatively weak xenos (like Tau or space Skaven), traitor guard, and Orks, where achieving a positive kill/death ratio is perfectly plausible.

Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards

Isn't the USMC's basic training(not including the technical training part) 3-4 months?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:Ehhh ... IG aren't all that great either ...

Maybe a single Guardsmen with 4 months of training compared to the 10,000 year old CSM in terminator armor

PresidentOfAsia wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards

Isn't the USMC's basic training(not including the technical training part) 3-4 months?

Basic is 13 weeks IIRC, so yeah, IG could probably be considered on par with most western militaries.

And with guns that hold the power of 19 Megathules, aka 19MJ, which is 737,562 ft-lb over 135 shots, 5.5k ft-lb per shot, which is half as powerful as a 50 cal but twice as powerful as a M14 round and three times as powerful as a AK round.

Wonder how much energy a lascannon and autocannons pump out per shot. I'd laugh if the ft-lb were high in the AC than LC.

Buttons wrote:

PresidentOfAsia wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards

Isn't the USMC's basic training(not including the technical training part) 3-4 months?

Basic is 13 weeks IIRC, so yeah, IG could probably be considered on par with most western militaries.

Basic doesn't train you how to fight very well though, my impression is that it is more about just getting you to react to orders in a uniform manner and that kind of stuff, not actual rifle skills etc. My mate was in 3RAR, (Australian Army) and he had about two years of actual training after basic which was about three months. After they'd taught him how to shave and polish his boots and make his bed the army way, then they get into the shooting and stuff. So he did months of seperate courses in urban and jungle warfare, rifle shooting and all the other stuff. If you just did basic as in IG about all you could do would be to clean your gun and fold your bed nicely!

At least, that's my impression, I'm sure the actual soldiers here know better though!

Journeys through the warp are not always a manner of a few weeks or a couple of months. They can last for months on end, even years, and if the regiments & units aboard are trained routinely then they will be in peak physical condition, well trained in the use of their equipment, tactics & skills they will need on the battlefield by the time they're sent in to fight. Upon the colossal transport ships they have the space & resources to adjust & tailor training to what can be expected from the warzone they will be entering thus giving them specialised training (see the Eisenhorn novel Xenos as an example).

On top of that there is the time where the forces gather & are marshaled before travelling to the warzone where the troops will not be sitting idle. Constant training keeps the troops occupied, keeps them well-versed in what they need to know & do on the field and exhausts them so they can't make as much trouble if they were sat idle.

Even if the journey is short & the time prior to departure minimal, the Guard regiments will still turn up well-trained & ready with what they need to know. The IG isn't into 'human rights' & the idea of being a soldier as a job with daily hours just doesn't sit comfortably. Aboard a transport in space time is almost irrelevant as there is no sun to regulate whether it is day or night. Thus the Guard units under training will no doubt be kept at the training with minimal breaks between - they won't get much sleep when they're being bombarded by artillery so why not get them used to it beforehand?

Dan Abnetts Armour of Contempt shows the diversity of Guard units, The Ghosts are off doing recon and other light infantry shenanigans. Meanwhile on the otherside of the continent Guardsmen are being thrown against fortifications to the point they could crawl over the bodies and over the fortifications in one go.

Blaggard wrote:And with guns that hold the power of 19 Megathules.

Source?

BlaxicanX wrote:

Blaggard wrote:And with guns that hold the power of 19 Megathules.

Source?

The Munitorum Manuel.

Yeah, About the whole "Executing them for forbidden knowledge" is only by a few radical inquisitors. Most use the Inquisitions power to scare them into silence.

Grey Templar wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Blaggard wrote:And with guns that hold the power of 19 Megathules.

Source?

The Munitorum Manuel.

I have it as well, and believe he is correct on how many megathules. I'll check when I get home.

It depends on the level of exposure.

If there was direct contact then they are probably toast, or they get permanantly attached to the Inquisition. Partly for the experienced soldiers they would be, and partly to keep an eye on them.

Indirect contact will normally not result in anything done to them unless there are obvious effects.

Grey Templar wrote:It depends on the level of exposure.

Yeah, I mean for something like the first armageddon war, so few would have avoided temptation that it is better just to kill or sterilize them all and be done with it. I mean a daemon primarch leading a massive invasion, most people are gonna die.

Jihadnik wrote:

Buttons wrote:

PresidentOfAsia wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards

Isn't the USMC's basic training(not including the technical training part) 3-4 months?

Basic is 13 weeks IIRC, so yeah, IG could probably be considered on par with most western militaries.

Basic doesn't train you how to fight very well though, my impression is that it is more about just getting you to react to orders in a uniform manner and that kind of stuff, not actual rifle skills etc. My mate was in 3RAR, (Australian Army) and he had about two years of actual training after basic which was about three months. After they'd taught him how to shave and polish his boots and make his bed the army way, then they get into the shooting and stuff. So he did months of seperate courses in urban and jungle warfare, rifle shooting and all the other stuff. If you just did basic as in IG about all you could do would be to clean your gun and fold your bed nicely!

At least, that's my impression, I'm sure the actual soldiers here know better though!

Ranger school is about 61 days

Yeah, but you don't just join the army and go straight to ranger schol right? That's what I mean't, I wasn't trying to say you can't learn a lot in a short space of time, especially if you're a motivated learner, I just meant, you won't do a whole lot of combat training in basic. Again, not a soldier, its just what I've read and heard.

There is no known comparator for what a "thule" is or how it compares to the "joule". We don't know how powerful the lasgun is compared to a contemporary weapon (except in comparison to the Autogun which was noted once as being equivalent to the 5.56/5.45mm assault rifle and given the same strength (and AP*).


*I'm not talking about the necromunda version, which has its own issues - but the 3rd ed guard codex version (when the rules of necro and 40k took off at right angles to each other).

The execution for seeing chaos from what I have seen and read normally only applys when they encounter real deamons. Not just traitors or heretics. Look at the end of the first war of Armageddon. Every none marine was killed and all of the marines were suppose to be mind wiped. Not that the Space wolves listened.

White Ninja wrote:The execution for seeing chaos from what I have seen and read normally only applys when they encounter real deamons. Not just traitors or heretics. Look at the end of the first war of Armageddon. Every none marine was killed and all of the marines were suppose to be mind wiped. Not that the Space wolves listened.

AFAIK Marines don't get mind wiped...

Something tells me it takes longer to train Elysians and Death Korp....

Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:Something tells me it takes longer to train Elysians and Death Korp....

Well FFGs Only War beta states that Death Korps are raised from birth to fight(and IIRC Dead Men Walking reinforces this), and Elysians must serve 4 years in local PDF before they are even considered for Imperial Guard Service (I believe one of the IA books reinforce this).

It is a very common misconception that ALL guardsmen only receive 4 months training or training en route to the battle zone..

This would only apply in the case of emergency responses to large threats where large number of conscript unites are called up to be sent to a nearby world in crisis.

Standard guard unites that are raised as part of a an annual teth would be trained to a level set by the ruling planetary governor (who would likely demand a fairly good level because if the teth is considered substandard he/she could be removed or executed!)