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Wardragoon wrote:

Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:Something tells me it takes longer to train Elysians and Death Korp....

Well FFGs Only War beta states that Death Korps are raised from birth to fight(and IIRC Dead Men Walking reinforces this), and Elysians must serve 4 years in local PDF before they are even considered for Imperial Guard Service (I believe one of the IA books reinforce this).

Correct, I was being somewhat cynical. =) Also if memory serves me Storm Troopers take a while as well

It applies to most Guard regiments that are raised on standard Tithes.

They spend a few months on their planet getting outfitted and basic training.

Then they get loaded onto ships and sent to a central dispersal area or sent to a warzone.

In the weeks they spend on the ships they undergo additional training and drills. Ships are equipped with simulation areas. They can practice all sorts of scenerios.

Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:Something tells me it takes longer to train Elysians and Death Korp....

Well FFGs Only War beta states that Death Korps are raised from birth to fight(and IIRC Dead Men Walking reinforces this), and Elysians must serve 4 years in local PDF before they are even considered for Imperial Guard Service (I believe one of the IA books reinforce this).

Correct, I was being somewhat cynical. =) Also if memory serves me Storm Troopers take a while as well

Well storm troopers are raised from a relatively young age to be the troops they are. And again I think ffg states that for training for a non Schola Storm trooper its two years of training.

Buttons wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:It depends on the level of exposure.

Yeah, I mean for something like the first armageddon war, so few would have avoided temptation that it is better just to kill or sterilize them all and be done with it. I mean a daemon primarch leading a massive invasion, most people are gonna die.

The Siege of Vraks would disagree with you.

Bobthehero wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:It depends on the level of exposure.

Yeah, I mean for something like the first armageddon war, so few would have avoided temptation that it is better just to kill or sterilize them all and be done with it. I mean a daemon primarch leading a massive invasion, most people are gonna die.

The Siege of Vraks would disagree with you.

There was a daemon primarch and over a dozen greater daemons at Vraks?

Even better An'ggrath was there, and the story mentions Kriegsmen falling back to let the 100+ Grey Knights and the Inquisitor Lord fight it.

Must've been a bunch of other demons, I know the original Deacon who turned traitor was granted Daemonhood by Nurgle.

Bobthehero wrote:Even better An'ggrath was there, and the story mentions Kriegsmen falling back to let the 100+ Grey Knights and the Inquisitor Lord fight it.

Must've been a bunch of other demons, I know the original Deacon who turned traitor was granted Daemonhood by Nurgle.

Neither of those are really as threatening as a daemon primarch. Sanguinius was able to slay one of Khorne's more powerful bloodthirsters, and was likely inferior in raw strength to Angron before he became a daemon prince. Even then Angron had an entourage of a dozen bloodthirsters. Also, Angron faced over a hundred terminators directly and only like 10 survived the encounter.

Edit: Also against Angron it was probably was best to air on the side of caution, the last time he was free from the warp he ran around for 200 years killing people and causing rebellions.

An'ggrath is the strongest Bloodthirst of Khorne and his most favored servant.

PresidentOfAsia wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards

Isn't the USMC's basic training(not including the technical training part) 3-4 months?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:Ehhh ... IG aren't all that great either ...

Maybe a single Guardsmen with 4 months of training compared to the 10,000 year old CSM in terminator armor

Boot camp is 3 months. School of infantry is 3 and a half months. Not to include all the schools I've been to which have been about 3 more months

Such a long time...
Blergh I am sticking with Regular Infantry, thank you very much.

Or perhaps paratroopers, depends if our jetpowered triplanes still work

Brother Thomas wrote:
Boot camp is 3 months. School of infantry is 3 and a half months.

Really? That's almost identical to Australia. Cool!

Vaktathi wrote:In general however, the IG are the best of mankinds forces, better trained, equipped and led than the larger PDF's of each world, and brought in when others can't do the job.

I don't think it's possible to make such broad sweeping statements though. Even here on earth we have everything from fresh-meat part-time militias, to the SAS or Navy SEALs. On a broader scale like the galaxy spanning IG, it's even harder to make generalisations. I imagine there are just as many 'elite' PDF's as there are IG regiments, and just as many crap PDF's as there are cannon-fodder IG regiments.

One has to consider that fact that, while it is not cost-effective to transport billions of men for months or years at a time just to throw their lives away, the life of a Guardsman is one of the cheapest and most easily replenished assets in the Imperium. In many cases, levying billions of humans off a Hive World is just a way of maintaining the population, keeping the demand for resources down. Even within the IG, elite regiments like the Catachans or Elysians are extremely limited. If option 1 costs 1,000 Elysians, and option 2 costs 10,000 'regular' guardsmen, it's still more cost effective to go with the 'regular' guardsmen.

That depends, Krieg, for example, produce 100x more troops than an equivalent world and it is that their training is far more brutal than the norm.

razor5647 wrote:It is a very common misconception that ALL guardsmen only receive 4 months training or training en route to the battle zone..

This would only apply in the case of emergency responses to large threats where large number of conscript unites are called up to be sent to a nearby world in crisis.

Standard guard unites that are raised as part of a an annual teth would be trained to a level set by the ruling planetary governor (who would likely demand a fairly good level because if the teth is considered substandard he/she could be removed or executed!)

I mentioned the four month thing up an almost absolute base minimum the Guardsman would receive.

Kaldor wrote:
Even within the IG, elite regiments like the Catachans or Elysians are extremely limited. If option 1 costs 1,000 Elysians, and option 2 costs 10,000 'regular' guardsmen, it's still more cost effective to go with the 'regular' guardsmen.

I'd argue which you pick depends on the overall situation after you've made the choice. If it's vital to retain airborne troopers for a later phase of operations than yes. But if those 10 000 guardsman are needed to hold the line in the face of the inevitable enemy counter attack, you throw them the Elysians.

But then I'd also argue the Guard probably doesn't have any trouble finding itself some elite troopers considering it's in a constant state of war. Nothing produces high quality soldiers like a couple of campaigns against renegades or Orks. Your unit size may talk significant casualties, but you'll be as good as just about any one. Except probably Storm Troopers.

Bobthehero wrote:That depends, Krieg, for example, produce 100x more troops than an equivalent world and it is that their training is far more brutal than the norm.

Yes, but then again its a major exception. They don't reproduce in the normal way so they have a massive birth rate, even for the Imperium.

Then they are raised from birth to fight in the Death Korps, their planet is a radioactive wasteland, and their final drill is a live combat between their new recruits with the survivors being in the new Regiment.

The Korps are BAMFs, and just to proove how much of BAMFs they are they have Commissars. But their job is to make sure the Korpsmen don't kill themselves too fast, not to enforce discipline.

Krieg doesn't produce 100x more troops than an equivalent world. It's about 10x iirc.

raising tens of regiments every year where a comparably-sized world might be expected to tithe one regiment every decade.

Quote from the Wiki, but I think they took from either the Codex or the Siege of Vraks, I'll have to re-read.

Might be even more than 100x.

Bobthehero wrote:raising tens of regiments every year where a comparably-sized world might be expected to tithe one regiment every decade.

Quote from the Wiki, but I think they took from either the Codex or the Siege of Vraks, I'll have to re-read.

Might be even more than 100x.

Maybe I misread the decade part back in the day. That's a lot of regiments...

Isn't all the GW fluff a little silly? Isn't everything contradicted at least once?

I just try not to think about it when playing, or I make stuff up.

Bobthehero wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:It depends on the level of exposure.

Yeah, I mean for something like the first armageddon war, so few would have avoided temptation that it is better just to kill or sterilize them all and be done with it. I mean a daemon primarch leading a massive invasion, most people are gonna die.

The Siege of Vraks would disagree with you.

Of all the regiments within the Imperial Guard the men of Krieg are probably the most heavily indoctrinated.
They seem to have no desires besides paying for the sins of their forefathers and no life outside constant warfare.
To leave them alive after a daemonic invasion is much safer than to do the same for most other, probably less dependable regiments.

Kaldor wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:In general however, the IG are the best of mankinds forces, better trained, equipped and led than the larger PDF's of each world, and brought in when others can't do the job.

I don't think it's possible to make such broad sweeping statements though. Even here on earth we have everything from fresh-meat part-time militias, to the SAS or Navy SEALs. On a broader scale like the galaxy spanning IG, it's even harder to make generalisations. I imagine there are just as many 'elite' PDF's as there are IG regiments, and just as many crap PDF's as there are cannon-fodder IG regiments.

That's why I said "In general" as the caveat there. Yes it's a broad statement that there will of course be numerous exceptions to, but *generally* the IG will be better trained, equipped and experienced than their PDF counterparts.

The "extermination" debate kinda assumes that the Imperium - IG aside - would have a coherent policy on this in the first place.

Arguably, from all I've ever read about the IoM, this is very unlikely.

I am sure there IS a transcript or imperial record that states all Guardsman need to be executed after meeting even a single daemon. There's also likely hundreds of other scriptures and guidances and holy text that all recommend or prescribe different things. And then it's up to who is in charge and pulling the strings. A strong IG command with good ties to the Adeptus Terra and favours owed by a nearby Astartes Chapter? Or a non-name regiment drafted without support by a well-connected and holier-than-though Inquisitor? Miles of differences.

If anything, the IoM is the prime example of arbitrary and whimsical bureaucracy, even if it leads to absurd atrocities.

Thus: Is it conceivable that the IoM may on occassion execute entire armies because some obscure piece of parchment says they should? Sure.
Could the IoM apply this "execution-policy" in a uniform and coherent way across its entire sphere of influence even if it tried: Hell no.
Is the difference between which IG-regiments get executed and which get not executed logical or coherent: Unlikely, if it's the IoM I keep reading about.

In short, IoM being what it is, I am pretty sure that sometimes IG (or even Astartes) get whiped out for some reason of this sort and sometimes not. It might occasionally even hit "trusted" IG-forces like Krieg while shady ones go unpunished and promptly become Traitor Guard. Hell, it might even hit the same regiment or force which gets to stay alive in conflict A but receives the thumbs down a decade later.

Trying to find a rational and universally enforced basis for "who get's executed or not" kinda misses the point of how the IoM tends to work even before one starts to consider the myriad variations that fall under the label of "IG".

Manchu wrote:Ehhh ... IG aren't all that great either ...

WIthout the Imperial Guard, the Imperium would effectively cease to exist.

The Imperium and the Imperial Guard are basically inseparable.

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:Ehhh ... IG aren't all that great either ...

WIthout the Imperial Guard, the Imperium would effectively cease to exist.

The Imperium and the Imperial Guard are basically inseparable.

Ehh... The Imperium isn't all that great either...

I do not believe there is a thing such as "fluff misconceptions". Let's keep in mind that, effectively, as per the very writers developing the material y'all invoking in debates like these, 40k does not actually have a canon. What some think are "misconceptions" are actually just different perceptions formed from reading material that is plain and simply different from what they themselves have read. By now, there must be dozens, if not a hundred writers and game designers all having worked on rulebooks, codices, novels and roleplaying games - and they all had their very own ideas, which they were free to introduce to the franchise with little along the lines of consistency or conformity.
tl;dr: for the majority of material published by this franchise, "book A" was never meant to be compatible with "book B" - yet someone whose perception of the setting was formed by book A is no more "right" or "wrong" than someone whose conception was formed from reading book B.

With that out of the way, I will also say that the setting would seem to allow a great many number of different types of Imperial Guard regiments to exist alongside even if you restrict your perception of the 'verse to a single source. Take the "Codex: Imperial Guard", for example, and look how the ill-equipped Valhallan Ice Warriors come across compared to airborne units of Elysian Drop Troops, or how the highly disciplined mechanized regiments of Cadia appear next to the horse-mounted barbarians from the Attilan Rough Riders.
A number of posters have pointed it out already - the Imperial Guard is quite simply so large and diverse that a uniform judgment is hard to pass. You will have borderline-marysue elite troops next to inexperienced conscript farmhands barely knowing how to hold their lasgun, just like you can find augmented hi-tech troops next to men-at-arms clad in medieval chainmail, so their players can pick the one they feel most attracted to. It's part of what makes the IG so cool. If you're going by the studio material, the one and only thing they all have in common is a few weeks minimum of basic training and a lasgun. And even of the latter there are different models. The rest ... well, it all depends on where the regiment was raised!

Romer wrote:But then I'd also argue the Guard probably doesn't have any trouble finding itself some elite troopers considering it's in a constant state of war. Nothing produces high quality soldiers like a couple of campaigns against renegades or Orks. Your unit size may talk significant casualties, but you'll be as good as just about any one. Except probably Storm Troopers.

Well, yes and no. I'm sure they'd be experienced and elite by IG standards, but by a galactic standard that still makes them pathetic meat-sacks. Just slightly less pathetic than their compatriots.

KingDeath wrote:Of all the regiments within the Imperial Guard the men of Krieg are probably the most heavily indoctrinated.
They seem to have no desires besides paying for the sins of their forefathers and no life outside constant warfare.
To leave them alive after a daemonic invasion is much safer than to do the same for most other, probably less dependable regiments.

Well, I certainly wouldn't say that. If a Daemon whispered in their ear and said they can have untold power with which to vanquish their enemies, and so better 'erase the sins' of their forefathers, and all they have to do in return is offer a little prayer every now and then? I can't be bothered typing out a convincing scenario right now, but suffice to say that if the troopers of the Deathkorp have any kind of desire (kill their enemies, die a "glorious" death, take a certain enemy position, whatever) then Khorne basically has a direct line to them. And if even only one in five million listens to him, it's too many.

Vaktathi wrote:*generally* the IG will be better trained, equipped and experienced than their PDF counterparts.

I don't think it would be though. I'd reckon most PDF troopers have better training and equipment. If I were a planetary lord, I'd be making damn sure I kept the best gear for own guards. Give the Imperium their standard pattern lasguns and flak armour, but up the production value a bit when producing equipment for the PDF. Also, many IG regiments have only minimal training where-as PDF troopers might have 20 years or more of training under their belts.

And of course, there's always the flipside of elite IG regiments and PDF regiments consisting of barbarians with pointy sticks.

I don't think it's possible to create a scale of efficiency and say that the PDF are generally on the lower end, while the IG are generally higher. I think there'd be an even spread.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Blaggard wrote:And with guns that hold the power of 19 Megathules.

Source?

The lasgun magazine that accompanies the Gamers Edition. http://ompldr.org/vZXFqYw/IMG_0310.JPG

Kaldor wrote:

I don't think it would be though. I'd reckon most PDF troopers have better training and equipment. If I were a planetary lord, I'd be making damn sure I kept the best gear for own guards. Give the Imperium their standard pattern lasguns and flak armour, but up the production value a bit when producing equipment for the PDF.

This is why the Administratum and Munitorum inspect the tithe, and why the Inquisition watches over planetary Lords to ensure they do right by the Imperium.

Also, quite often, the tithe may be equipped by the Munitorum rather than the planet they originate from as otherwise they may not have the appropriate industrial base, many worlds have neither the technology or the sheer capacity to properly equip a guard regiment to they supply additional troops or more food or whatever than they would have otherwise.

Also, many IG regiments have only minimal training where-as PDF troopers might have 20 years or more of training under their belts.

If they are being taken from a planet with minimal training, it likely means the PDF has already been drained of its experienced troops for draft, at least, that's how it *should* work, unless the Lord has enough clout within other organizations to cover for himself.

I don't think it's possible to create a scale of efficiency and say that the PDF are generally on the lower end, while the IG are generally higher. I think there'd be an even spread.

Again, the tithes are inspected, and if a planetary Lord is holding back, his title and life are forfeit.

Vaktathi wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

I don't think it would be though. I'd reckon most PDF troopers have better training and equipment. If I were a planetary lord, I'd be making damn sure I kept the best gear for own guards. Give the Imperium their standard pattern lasguns and flak armour, but up the production value a bit when producing equipment for the PDF.

This is why the Administratum and Munitorum inspect the tithe, and why the Inquisition watches over planetary Lords to ensure they do right by the Imperium.

Also, quite often, the tithe may be equipped by the Munitorum rather than the planet they originate from as otherwise they may not have the appropriate industrial base, many worlds have neither the technology or the sheer capacity to properly equip a guard regiment to they supply additional troops or more food or whatever than they would have otherwise.

Also, many IG regiments have only minimal training where-as PDF troopers might have 20 years or more of training under their belts.

If they are being taken from a planet with minimal training, it likely means the PDF has already been drained of its experienced troops for draft, at least, that's how it *should* work, unless the Lord has enough clout within other organizations to cover for himself.

I don't think it's possible to create a scale of efficiency and say that the PDF are generally on the lower end, while the IG are generally higher. I think there'd be an even spread.

Again, the tithes are inspected, and if a planetary Lord is holding back, his title and life are forfeit.

Well many world in the Cullexis sector have corruption issues, just remember that the Lord General is the wealthiest man on probably 90% of planets, he can afford to have some munitorum officials on the payroll, and all the fluff I have read on Inquisition is they only interfere after a munitorum investigation or if secession is going to occur. (I have read for Inquisitor fluff: FFG books, Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Ciaphas Cain, Ultramarines)

Kaldor wrote:

Romer wrote:But then I'd also argue the Guard probably doesn't have any trouble finding itself some elite troopers considering it's in a constant state of war. Nothing produces high quality soldiers like a couple of campaigns against renegades or Orks. Your unit size may talk significant casualties, but you'll be as good as just about any one. Except probably Storm Troopers.

Well, yes and no. I'm sure they'd be experienced and elite by IG standards, but by a galactic standard that still makes them pathetic meat-sacks. Just slightly less pathetic than their compatriots.

Not at all. Since as stated the vast majority of their opponents will also be "pathetic meat-sacks". The rest will predominantly be Orks where the Guardsman have other advantages. And really, it's only the Chaos Marines which aren't numerous enough and the Necrons that truly out class Imperial Guardsman. Eldar do to, but in a way that's easier to handle.

Besides, if the Guard was that pathetic, all the Imperiums enemies must be equally as pathetic, since it is the guard and not the space marines that hold the Imperium together.