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A lance weapon fired at a planet from the system edge will suffer beam dispersion *billions* of miles before it gets anywhere near its target. This is why orbital bombardment has to be done from a relatively low orbit, the range on the ship-borne weapons isn't *that* great.

Tens of thousands of kilometers? Sure. Across a solar system? Hah, not even close.

Also, space is really big. A Space Marine fleet might be a few dozen ships in size, maybe even scores, but that can't possibly cover every potential Warp translation point in-system and, depending, can't always outgun every in-bound supply ship... especially once the situation drags on and word spreads, a starving world is a *ripe* opportunity for war profiteering on behalf of a Rogue Trader dynasty, and those mugs are crazy enough to slip an Astartes blockade in order to bring in food and supplies.

Bobthehero wrote:IG's going boots on the planet because blowing the planet is generally a bad choice.

But those aren't the only two choices.

Further, allowing the enemy free reign for weeks, months, or years while you get the IG an Navy together and mount a response is also a bad choice.

That's how things fly in the Imperium, though. Things happen and it may be months or years before even a nearby system hears about something going on. As most people in the Imperium never, ever leave the planet of their birth, and the few Rogue Traders and Chartist Captains making the semi-regular stops at a given world are probably showing up once every couple of decades, a change in management is not going to really set off any alarms to them, unless it's the sort of change that comes with a new flag with eight pointy bits on it.

Vaktathi wrote:
And yet the defenses of Vraks, a relatively minor outpost compared with many worlds, were extensive enough that no Space Marine Chapter would take on the job until long after the Guard landed and even then engaged largely away from the front lines and the well protected (in terms of AA and AO capability) Citadel itself.

Vraks was bizarre for any number of reasons. A Vindicaire getting stopped by a force field? Don't they have specialized ammo for that purpose? An oh-so-important Munitorum world.. that has no orbital defenses whatsoever? No space stations, battle stathions, system defense ships, or anything like that? No fighters? No naval presence at all? Hauling regiments from halfway across the galaxy (and supplying them that way) rather than raising regiments from the surrounding sectors/subsectors and sending them in to crush the assault? And on and on and on....

Vraks was basically contrived as 'We want WW1 on the ground and everything else including logic can take a flying leap' and that's all there is too it. It's better ot just enjoy it as a game and not think too hard about it making sense.


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Psienesis wrote:A lance weapon fired at a planet from the system edge will suffer beam dispersion *billions* of miles before it gets anywhere near its target. This is why orbital bombardment has to be done from a relatively low orbit, the range on the ship-borne weapons isn't *that* great.

Use a projectile.

Tens of thousands of kilometers? Sure. Across a solar system? Hah, not even close.

Small nitpick . "low orbit' is generally out to a few thousand kilometres as we define it. Tens of thousands is closer to geostationary.

Also, space is really big. A Space Marine fleet might be a few dozen ships in size, maybe even scores, but that can't possibly cover every potential Warp translation point in-system and, depending, can't always outgun every in-bound supply ship... especially once the situation drags on and word spreads, a starving world is a *ripe* opportunity for war profiteering on behalf of a Rogue Trader dynasty, and those mugs are crazy enough to slip an Astartes blockade in order to bring in food and supplies.

How many warp translation points does a system usually have? The only things I can think of to hint at that would be Battlefleet Gothic's maps and they tend to show a system usually only having a couple routes, tops.



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Kaldor wrote:To my mind the Astartes are the first responders of the Imperium. While the IG need a lot of time, dedicated resources and inter-departmental communication to begin to respond to a distress call, the Astartes are all ready to go, loaded in their own ships and not tied down by the ponderous bureaucracy of the Imperium. If they receive a distress call in the morning, they can be en route by lunch time.

The old 2nd edition IG codex called the Navy and the Space Marines the fast-response forces of the Imperium. Both forces, however, have the problem that they're hampered by needing to cover large volumes of space as part of their responsibility, so they can't be everywhere at once even with their greater mobility/faster response time.

There's also the fact fighting a defensive war is different than launching a Crusade. When we tend to think of 'large and ponderous' we usually think of the IG massing to launch an attack (eg a Crusade.) which needs all the forces rendezvousing at a certain place, organizing, politicking, etc. and all that stuff that slows it up. If they're responding to the attack of a planet to defend it, each world is responsible for raising its forces and dispatching them. It's rather haphazard and lacks coordination, but the response time is quicker than when you're preparing to make an assault.

Kaldor wrote:
Well, yes but then we have to assume we're going with suspect fluff justifications for their actions. I mean, with the tools and vehicles available to the Imperium, the IG should be almost totally redundant. When you can scour a planet to the bedrock from orbit, having to put boots on the ground seems unnecessary.

Unless you want it for yourself and as something faintly resembling a useful planet.

IMO, if we're basically saying 'just because' when we ask ourselves why the IG are fighting ground battles, then the same answer is good enough when we ask ourselves how Marines fight and win those ground battles.

True enough

I'm talking about naval blockades. And Astartes operational fleets are more than capable of that, I reckon.

As a full Chapter? Perhaps, if the world has no naval assets of its own and its anti-orbital defences are relatively weak and they lack large numbers of vessels, but even then, that's devoting the full might of an Astartes chapter's naval strength to something as mundane as...blockade duty, about the least useful purpose for an Astartes chapter I would think.

And as the individual Strike forces they typically operate as? Not really. A strike cruiser with, at best, 100 marines, isn't going to blockade a world.

They have the ability to detect, intercept and destroy any inbound supply ships (assuming they have space superiority, even just locally)

Yes, but not from everywhere. A single ship can only cover so much space, and engage so many targets, and as much 40k fluff has shown there are all sorts of ways to evade detection. Even a full astartes fleet of a couple dozen vessels with half a dozen to a dozen capital ships may have trouble effectively covering the entire globular sky.

and they'd only need to actually intercept a tiny fraction of inbound ships. With billions of people compressed into those Hives, already living on the edge, it would only take one or two days before the entire population tore itself apart.

Unless they see those lost as acceptable casualties (or that the supply interference is even noticed), if they even hear about their loss at all. This is the 40k universe, where life is cheap and information typically tightly controlled and poorly disseminated.

Of course, that all just raises further questions. Why would the Astartes be attacking a Hive World? And who would be supplying that hive world? There's an easier way for the Imperium to stop Hive Worlds from seceding: Simply stop feeding them!

All sorts of reasons, rebellion, mutation taint, the governor scuffed the Chapter Master's boots at a fancy dinner party, the reasons are endless

Many Hive Worlds are self sufficient, disgustingly and depressingly so for most of the population, but capable of it, not all are dependent on outside worlds for food, many may have agricultural areas elsewhere on the planet.

To my mind the Astartes are the first responders of the Imperium. While the IG need a lot of time, dedicated resources and inter-departmental communication to begin to respond to a distress call, the Astartes are all ready to go, loaded in their own ships and not tied down by the ponderous bureaucracy of the Imperium. If they receive a distress call in the morning, they can be en route by lunch time.

Yes, and that's fine, but often they are portrayed doing what the IG should really be doing (engaging foes in pitched battles, fighting wars of attrition, etc).

Also, responding to distress signals/calls for aid/etc is also entirely up to them, they can and do ignore calls for aid if they feel it beneath them, unnecessary, not important, uninteresting, etc. They don't have to justify non-interference. No Astartes would respond to the Siege on Vraks for instance for years until battle had already been joined and the blood of millions already spilled.

And, on a galaxy wide setting, with merely 1000 chapters, there simply aren't enough to go around, most wars never see a single Space Marine boot even if needed because they're simply too rare. When you have a million worlds (at least) and warfare is present on almost every front and within the Imperium's own borders, it's nigh impossible for the Space Marines to effectively be everywhere they'd need to be, and given how long it takes to make replacements, whenever they take casualties they tend to be functionally permanent for the duration of a battle/war, and when you're only 1000 strong, even if taking casualties at a rate only 1/100th of other forces, you're likely going to be ground to nothing in days or weeks or at best months in any sort of major engagement the way the 40k universe would see it.

And when they get there they are smart enough, and capable enough, to know the best way to disrupt the enemy.

This is a bit of a bugbear of mine that Space Marines somehow now the best way to defeat everything all the time and are somehow more intelligent than their foes, neither of which is necessarily true (remember, nothing about the Space Marine genetic enhancements increases intelligence or anything like that).

They have the tools to fight naval engagements (I think I worked out once that the Astartes navy is roughly the same size as the entire Imperial navy, from some BFG sources...)

The IN is much, much larger if I'm remembering correctly. Astartes fleets at best may be similar in size to a sector battlegroup, but there are millions of sectors in the Imperium while there are only 1000 marine chapters. Also, SM ships are designed for boarding and planetary assault missions, their fleets actually often are poorly equipped to fight other navies, by design after the Horus Heresy, hence the critical lack of Lances, Nova Cannons, and the like amongst their vessels. In naval combat they work best when ambushing isolated opponents at (what is for space battles at least) close range and boarding their opponents with their superhuman troops. In a slugfest an IN cruiser has more/bigger guns generally and is larger/better armored vessel.

A particularly well of chapter like the Ultramarines may have half a dozen battle barges, a dozen Strike Cruisers, and 2-4 dozen escort class vessels, most will have 1 or 2 battle barges, 3-6 Strike Cruisers, and maybe a dozen escorts, while an Imperial Navy sector fleet will generally have roughly 75 ships of all classes from Battleships, to Grand Cruisers, to Cruisers and Escorts.

and perform their famous lightning strikes on the ground, eliminating vital enemy emplacements and convoys, or retrieving sacred artifacts or people of interest, and generally making themselves a thorn in the enemies side until the IG can get there.

Yes, and that's exactly what they should be doing and are great at, but that in and of itself won't win wars waged by dedicated and capable opponents. It's just that GW likes to show them winning wars doing just that, or actively fighting opponents in pitched battles

Vaktathi wrote:Unless you want it for yourself and as something faintly resembling a useful planet.

My point is, returning the Japanese example, that if you CAN scour a planet to the bedrock, even if it means a net loss for you, the enemy will generally comply with your demands. Not always, but often.

And as the individual Strike forces they typically operate as? Not really. A strike cruiser with, at best, 100 marines, isn't going to blockade a world... Even a full astartes fleet of a couple dozen vessels with half a dozen to a dozen capital ships may have trouble effectively covering the entire globular sky.

I guess it depends on your information. I seem to remember in one of the HH novels a fleet travelling from an out-of-system warp-translation point to their in-system rendezvous, and the trip taking only a few hours/days.

With those sorts of speeds, you don't need to physically cover the entire area. And even stopping five or ten percent of incoming supplies would be enough to cause billions of people inside the hives to arm themselves with makeshift weapons and march on the ruling elite, tearing them limb from limb and ransacking their estates for food.

Many Hive Worlds are self sufficient, disgustingly and depressingly so for most of the population, but capable of it, not all are dependent on outside worlds for food, many may have agricultural areas elsewhere on the planet.

Hmm, I've never heard that. Most of the background I've read indicates that hive worlds rely heavily on massive shipments of food and water.

This is a bit of a bugbear of mine that Space Marines somehow now the best way to defeat everything all the time and are somehow more intelligent than their foes, neither of which is necessarily true (remember, nothing about the Space Marine genetic enhancements increases intelligence or anything like that).

I put it down to experience. Marine Chapters have much longer and more varied service records than the IG, and the individual warriors are often exponentially older and more experienced also.

The IN is much, much larger if I'm remembering correctly. Astartes fleets at best may be similar in size to a sector battlegroup, but there are millions of sectors in the Imperium while there are only 1000 marine chapters. Also, SM ships are designed for boarding and planetary assault missions, their fleets actually often are poorly equipped to fight other navies, by design after the Horus Heresy, hence the critical lack of Lances, Nova Cannons, and the like amongst their vessels. In naval combat they work best when ambushing isolated opponents at (what is for space battles at least) close range and boarding their opponents with their superhuman troops. In a slugfest an IN cruiser has more/bigger guns generally and is larger/better armored vessel.

Mmm, you're right, I had a look at an older thread discussing the subject. Best figures I could come up with give the Imperial Navy a total strength of ~70,000 ships (including escorts) and the Astartes ~12,000, making the Astartes fleet about ~20% of the entire Imperial naval assets.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/442975.page#4219317 to relevant post

It's just that GW likes to show them winning wars doing just that, or actively fighting opponents in pitched battles

I don't read a whole lot of BL stuff, so I'll have to take your word for it

Connor MacLeod wrote:The old 2nd edition IG codex called the Navy and the Space Marines the fast-response forces of the Imperium. Both forces, however, have the problem that they're hampered by needing to cover large volumes of space as part of their responsibility, so they can't be everywhere at once even with their greater mobility/faster response time.

Actually, no, in the 2E Codex it wasn't a matter of coverage, but the Space Marines really not being able to deal with "real" wars:

"Often a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In such a case mobility counts for very little. In conflicts such as this, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe. The ultimate fighting machine, its task is to hold a front line that stretches across the stars, to wage war for decades or centuries if need be, to act as the bastion of the Imperium against the massed hordes arrayed for mankind."

I feel that this has been downplayed in the more recent fluff to make the Astartes even more "cool" by taking away a critical (balancing) weakness, and it's sad, because it was unnecessary and unfair towards the IG. Personally, I'm keeping it for my interpretation of the setting, because frankly, it just makes sense, and Marines were already "awesome enough" for me before they pushed the Guard out of this rather prestigious role. If nowadays the only thing keeping Marines out of those huge conflicts is their inability to "be everywhere at once", it relegates the Guard to some sort of auxiliary force whose only job it is to hold the line until the Almighty Astartes can ride in to the rescue (which is how a lot of battles are described to occur in the past years). Meh.

Kaldor wrote:Best figures I could come up with give the Imperial Navy a total strength of ~70,000 ships (including escorts) and the Astartes ~12,000, making the Astartes fleet about ~20% of the entire Imperial naval assets.

Personally, I'd expect the Navy to be a bit bigger. There are lots of assumptions that led you to this number; I think the amount of Imperial sectors is the biggest question mark in the equation, for if we'd have that, we would know the total fleet size (BFG mentions a sector fleet usually being 50-75 ships).
I'm not sure it makes any sense even trying to calculate the number; there's just too many variables: segmentae do not have either a fixed size nor a fixed number of sectors, sectors have not a fixed size either and may often have "free space" between them, and even then the fleet size will vary on a sector's size and importance or level of unrest/hostilities. It's GW's usual way of saying: "lol, try to calculate that you nutjobs", as every so often leaving quite a bit of leeway for people to make up their own ideas, befitting the company's general stance on consistency and canonicity.

Kaldor wrote:I don't read a whole lot of BL stuff, so I'll have to take your word for it

BL stuff can deviate significantly from GW stuff, anyways.

The sections in the new BGB refer to how many ships were involved in the 13th Black Crusade, as well as the Armageddon. Looking at that can probably help to extrapolate how many the IN may actually be made up of.

As for Astartes involved in battles on a larger scale, I really enjoyed Graham Macneills portrayal in Nightbringer and his follow up novel regarding the Tau (can't remember it's name off the top of my head) on Pavonis I believe it was.

In both of those the Ultramarine Company was invovevd in lightning raids, or leading spearheads into vital areas. They weren't involved in trench warfare, defending supply lines, etc...

Their capabilities in space combat were highlighted as well when a SM Strike Cruiser captained by the Ultramarine Lord of the Fleet barely defeated a single Dark Eldar light cruiser. Space Marines are normally going to operate in such a fashion. A single strike cruiser, possibly 3-4 escorts. Battle Barges and multiple Strike Cruisers are going to be for the extreme engagements. Even when it came to defending a world against a Splinter Hive Fleet the chapter only dispatched a single Strike Cruiser. Those few ships are not going to sufficiently blockade an entire system. They can do a good job of locking up the orbitals over large population centers (which is probably their primary targets), but they won't bother with trying to lock down an entire system.

Most of the time though they want the planet intact. The hives are where stuff is made and if you destroy them it will take generations to make a new one.