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Palindrome wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Chaos =/= Random.

Chaos = lack of order which is best represented in game by random events or mechanics which give unpredicatable results.

As opposed to open defiance and rebellion against the Emperor's 'order' and the Imperium of Man?

You're telling me that the rebels should clearly have their entire ruleset riddled with random fething events to represent 'chaos'? Isn't the fact they're in open rebellion against the established order of humanity sufficient enough to warrant their name, hmm?

Chaos =/= Random Events.

Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to get their head on straight. Any system that can potentially wipe out a 300-400 point model with a random dice roll allocated as a 'reward' for doing what it's supposed to do is a badly designed system. Why do you think Possessed currently are used by next to no one? When you could purchase their abilities and their schtick was that they had so much more flexibility than every other unit in the codex they were popular. Even in the Codex before that - the IA articles gave them a FIXED ability for the cult legions and as such they were more popular then.

The moment it went to a random ability rolled AFTER deployment they became good for nothing but spare bits for other squads.

Now is as good as time as any to reiterate that GW does not want a balanced uber competetive game. They want you telling stories with miniatures on the battlefield. Random charts goes a long way with this.

His Master's Voice wrote:

Palindrome wrote:So if people design their armies for fluff rather than some 'optimised' build they are bad players?

A player that does not play to win is not a good player. So in that sense, yes, they are bad players.

Thing is, being a bad player isn't a bad thing if winning is not your primary goal.

False on so many levels.

I agree that the possessed is a great example of a unit that fell by the wayside because of its random nature. When you build a army list it is often designed with an endpoint in mind. When you purchase possessed a lot of the time you end up paying for an ability that you will never put to use. Chaos dreads are another great example. Too many times i have seen my freinds loose tournaments because their dread went fire frenzy when they wanted it to charge and visa versa. Randomness is already part of the game via the dice. If the only changes that happened that were negative were on snake eyes, and the rest were either neutral or beneficial, i wouldnt mind this system much.

Also not too happy about the lack of marked terminator but i can get over that if that is the route that GW takes.

sennacherib wrote:False on so many levels.

Random statement is random. Look, this is pretty simple - games are competitions. While the De Coubertin principle is nice and all, all games are played to win. Sure, you may get other things from playing the game besides winning, and those benefits are absolutely valid, but that doesn't make you a good player if you're not winning to begin with. That's why an Olympic swimmer from Mozambique gets a smile and a pat on the back, but no one in their right mind would call his a good swimmer in that particular competition.

Agreed.
However good does not equal always trying to win. I know many good players who often win in tournaments, who will take units just for fun. They are lessening the likely hood that they will win by doing so but they still enjoy the game. I win tournaments and when i game with noobs, i will tailor my list so that they have a greater chance of winning, and will sometimes throw them units so that they have something to munch on. Some of the best games (fun wise) were games i lost. Winning is not everything nor does winning dictate what a good gamer is. Gaming is about having fun. Its about spending time together, model building, etc. Being a good gamer is defined by a whole variety of traits besides just winning. If winning were all that mattered WAAC gamers would be a lot more popular with their peers.

To use the sports analogy i would point out that Lance Armstrong sometimes competes in mountain bike races. He is not going to win under most conditions, does this mean that he is not a good bike racer.

Not the whole "It's a dice game it's supposed to the random!" canard again. Ugh, really.

Back on topic, I hope they do a good job, since this being the first codex in 6th puts some pressure to see how they'll develop the edition.

If they have sound unit pricing, fun special rules, cover all bases (A little bit of anti-air, effective CC and shooty options, multiple viable army builds), I'll be happy enough.

If they gorram fix Kharn, sorcerers and the marks/icon system, I'll set off fireworks. Not kidding at all here.

Like it or loathe it, randomness has been a part of chaos since the d100 chaos traits table in Realms Of Chaos.

To rage against Chaos having random elements in 40K is like raging against Ultramarines for being blue.

azreal13 wrote:Like it or loathe it, randomness has been a part of chaos since the d100 chaos traits table in Realms Of Chaos.

To rage against Chaos having random elements in 40K is like raging against Ultramarines for being blue.

So, a common and everyday occurrence?

. Why do you think Possessed currently are used by next to no one?

Because even with their base stats they are overpriced? It's not always because they are random, but because they aren't priced right normally.

I mean look at wychs, and combat drugs in general, nobody picks them just for their ability to roll on the chart!

The possessed are more expensive vanguard, and they only really get +1 strength and a 5++ to go with it, and more expensive marks that makes it harder to justify taking them.


Crappy Pricing =/= Random Events.

Even a good random roll can be justified if they are priced right, Chaos Dreads had one more attack and were 5 points cheaper than a standard dread (If you took a multi-melta like a standard dread) That is not cost effective! Not to mention unable to be transported quickly with a pod just made them worse.

Im sorry, but did any goddamn chaos player ask for these things? I feel like the writer just blocked his ears with his hands and yelled lala-I-Can't-Hear-You-My-Idea-Is-Better-Than-Anybody-Else's.

And if the only way I can get PM, and 1K sons as troops is from a special character...someone is gonna die.

Is there a way that the main page can flash a symbol when actual rumors are being discussed. That way I don't have to skip through a bunch lame bickering.

yellowfever wrote:Is there a way that the main page can flash a symbol when actual rumors are being discussed. That way I don't have to skip through a bunch lame bickering.

No. But the op or a mod might update the main post or title when new rumors appear. You can hope that happens anyway.

Blitza da warboy wrote:
And if the only way I can get PM, and 1K sons as troops is from a special character...someone is gonna die.

Which would be quite interesting, considering that most tournaments' rules forbid special characters. Perhaps a warlord with certain mark also unlocks cult troops? We will find out soon...

I love the whole Cult thing, when I started, you had to pick a God and stick with it, none of this mix and match. I hate mix and match (it was like playing the CCG, Vs, and everyone just took whatever was the awsome and tossed the whole theme of the game out the window)
Now I will miss deamons not being in the army, I bought some Deamonettes and like using them. But I can get over it.
Not a fan of random effect if I kill something. I mean if I take a named character and it just turns into something else, then I feel like it was a waste of my time to even use it.
Now lets hope losing the power fist means the Oblits are cheaper.

Random effects...eh, had to deal with them before. Been playing Chaos since near the end of 2nd edition/start of 3rd. Just more of a return to things IMO. Could be fun, could be really bad depending on the tables. Not going to grumble and moan further not knowing the exact details.

I do like the return of Cult-specific list. I just shudder when I see Khorne and Slaanesh fighting side by side with no problems. I am a pure Emperor's Children player myself and I just hate the last dex with a burning passion as it made so many of my cool models and conversions useless. I think I played one or maybe two battles with them in 5th edition.

What I do dislike, and this is something creeping up in every codex, is that in order to get a certain build for your army you need to include a special character. I really sincerely HATE that. I want a vanilla HQ choice to do that not Mr. Fluffy-bottoms Whatever. I do hope we get vanilla HQ choices and not special chars.

I too like the cult specific list, and i dont mind having to buy a special named character to play it (ducks when Blitza da warboy takes note of this) . Incidentally, someone (danant) said that most tournis wont allow named characters. I have never played in such an event and i have played in tons of tournis. I think that was 4th ed stuff your referencing and even then they allowed it.

As long as this dex is tough enough to play in the current meta without being OP and has multiple builds, i will be really happy.

BramGaunt wrote:I'm staying with September for the Starter Set. August for CSM. We'll know in 1 week, anyway.
If the books were really dispatched to warehouses around the world they won't sit there for long.

That's what I believe as well.

BTW here the old Epic Chaos flyer called Doom Wing:


A daring prediction:

TheDarkGeneral wrote:I was recently told that the new Chaos Daemon flyer (along with Tyranid and Tau) get released in about two weeks along with new White Dwarf!

Kroothawk wrote:

BramGaunt wrote:I'm staying with September for the Starter Set. August for CSM. We'll know in 1 week, anyway.
If the books were really dispatched to warehouses around the world they won't sit there for long.

That's what I believe as well.

A daring prediction:

TheDarkGeneral wrote:I was recently told that the new Chaos Daemon flyer (along with Tyranid and Tau) get released in about two weeks along with new White Dwarf!

I prefer this schedule XD. Hope this is the real one.

Kroothawk wrote:

BramGaunt wrote:I'm staying with September for the Starter Set. August for CSM. We'll know in 1 week, anyway.
If the books were really dispatched to warehouses around the world they won't sit there for long.

That's what I believe as well.

BTW here the old Epic Chaos flyer called Doom Wing:


A daring prediction:

TheDarkGeneral wrote:I was recently told that the new Chaos Daemon flyer (along with Tyranid and Tau) get released in about two weeks along with new White Dwarf!

*Starts frothing at the mouth*

Wow, that's fething ugly.

Steve steveson wrote:Interesting, that dose however raise two questions.

1) when is the 40k box set out if this is september and

2) what will be out in august....

Box set rumoured to be out September to compete with the Fantasy boat game (can't remember the name), new fliers out for August to reinforce other armies, so I expect Chaos/Dark Angel Codex out October/November.
Loads of cool stuff supposed to be in the box set though!

Kroothawk wrote:BTW here the old Epic Chaos flyer called Doom Wing:

Ah, happy days. I miss the old Epic system.

Having a proper Warsmith would be nice. Right now my friends have agreed to a House rule where i can take a MoTF as a Warsmith for my IW army.

Not having Cult Terminator smight suck, btu it depends on what they have the marks of chaos do. If MoN gives you +1 T and FNP for example then using that is as good as having Plague Termies.

I'm curious about the Cultists. i would have through they woudl leave those out to get people to take IG allies instead.

Really Really Really hope the new dex is out in august. Would be able to get the book for my birthday and then go back to college and not have to worry about buying tons of new models.

So anyone have any idea what the new Chaos Dragon flyer does? What does the rumour that it's nasty against enemy flyers mean? Does it just have some good weaponry and the vector dancer special rule or does it have some supa speshul Ward abilities that all enemy flyers take 10 S10 hits every turn while its on the table?

Sidstyler wrote:Wow, that's fething ugly.

It's also older than your average user on this forum; I don't think it's too much to go by outside of the general idea being carried over at most.

Praxiss wrote:Having a proper Warsmith would be nice. Right now my friends have agreed to a House rule where i can take a MoTF as a Warsmith for my IW army.

Not having Cult Terminator smight suck, btu it depends on what they have the marks of chaos do. If MoN gives you +1 T and FNP for example then using that is as good as having Plague Termies.

I'm curious about the Cultists. i would have through they woudl leave those out to get people to take IG allies instead.

I was a bit surprised as well. They probably had the molds modeled for some other project and decided to give it a go. I wonder what extra rule they'll get, though. Infiltrate? Ability to take chaos marks?

And yes, if the marks received a good reworking, cult terminators can be in the game even if they don't have a specific entry.

Therion wrote:So anyone have any idea what the new Chaos Dragon flyer does? What does the rumour that it's nasty against enemy flyers mean? Does it just have some good weaponry and the vector dancer special rule or does it have some supa speshul Ward abilities that all enemy flyers take 10 S10 hits every turn while its on the table?

Early rumours said there was some artwork of it tearing a Valkyre out of the sky. Perhaps some Vector Strike type ability?

kenzosan wrote:

yellowfever wrote:Is there a way that the main page can flash a symbol when actual rumors are being discussed. That way I don't have to skip through a bunch lame bickering.

No. But the op or a mod might update the main post or title when new rumors appear. You can hope that happens anyway.

I will indeed.

XT-1984 wrote:

Therion wrote:So anyone have any idea what the new Chaos Dragon flyer does? What does the rumour that it's nasty against enemy flyers mean? Does it just have some good weaponry and the vector dancer special rule or does it have some supa speshul Ward abilities that all enemy flyers take 10 S10 hits every turn while its on the table?

Early rumours said there was some artwork of it tearing a Valkyre out of the sky. Perhaps some Vector Strike type ability?

I would guess that, as it is a Dragon, it will have some sort of special rule which allows it to assault fliers in some way.