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Oh hey tau are experiencing something Chaos has experienced YEARS AGO.

At least now we have allies to mitigate it.

Of course I preferred the kroot merc dex over their meh incarnation inside of tau

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Oh hey tau are experiencing something Chaos has experienced YEARS AGO.

At least now we have allies to mitigate it.

Of course I preferred the kroot merc dex over their meh incarnation inside of tau

Oh hey, chaos experienced something different years ago. You're able to still use your demons as generic equivalents... they didn't just disappear from your codex like this unlikely rumor says. What happened to demons still sucked but it wasn't the same thing. We'll see if it happens first to them with the upcoming codex seeing as how they're rumored to be next, though.

I find these rumours highly suspicious and vehemently hope that they are false.

Even if Kroot and Vespids ended up as separate mini armies they could easily be only battle brothers with Tau and desperate with everyone else, keeping any 'special' arrangement. They could even have an expanded concept where they could be included as a second ally as long as your army includes X, who knows? Those who are already very negative towards this possible new direction are identical to those who were upset over how the Necrons got reworked. In both cases I feel the result will be a much more diverse and interesting army so its for the best to just wait this out and don't seem so negative until they actually do what your fearing.

What I do know is that the few nascent things that have released and have been rumored to be released with 6ed so far is exciting. I for one rarely run Kroot in my Tau force so the change is a big 'meh' for me regardless of what happens however anything could be on the table.

Just remembered these amusing exchanges in the Tau 6th Ed. Tactics thread



And then this which might actually become a real thing if Logan's rumours are real

Zweischneid wrote:I don't get this antipathy to changes in the background.

The cheap, jaded money-grab, if anything, would be if they didn't change things and just sold you some updated rules without putting any new creative effort into it.

They don't. Big thumbs up for GW from me.

I love the old fluff as much as anyone. But... I've already read the old fluff. If I'll pay for a new book, getting a new take on the Tau (or any other faction) gives me greater value for my money. And the greater the changes in the background that they demonstrate, the greater will be the scope (and the example) for hobbyists to tinker with the background themselves, ultimately creating a richer and more diverse hobby for everyone.

Besides, the old fluff will still be there whatever happens. Noone's gonna steal your old books.

Good writers could easily add lots of new stories without damaging any existing plotlines. Its called "agreement" and professional writers/improvisers have been doing it for years.....now, I have no clue if GW can do it, based upon the necron codex, they can't.
(I am not being a hater here, but as a guy who does this sort of thing, they do a bad job at it. but that is another topic....).

davethepak wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

Spoiler:

I don't get this antipathy to changes in the background.

The cheap, jaded money-grab, if anything, would be if they didn't change things and just sold you some updated rules without putting any new creative effort into it.

They don't. Big thumbs up for GW from me.

I love the old fluff as much as anyone. But... I've already read the old fluff. If I'll pay for a new book, getting a new take on the Tau (or any other faction) gives me greater value for my money. And the greater the changes in the background that they demonstrate, the greater will be the scope (and the example) for hobbyists to tinker with the background themselves, ultimately creating a richer and more diverse hobby for everyone.

Besides, the old fluff will still be there whatever happens. Noone's gonna steal your old books.

Good writers could easily add lots of new stories without damaging any existing plotlines. Its called "agreement" and professional writers/improvisers have been doing it for years.....now, I have no clue if GW can do it, based upon the necron codex, they can't.
(I am not being a hater here, but as a guy who does this sort of thing, they do a bad job at it. but that is another topic....).

What Dave said.

When it comes to adding new stuff without changing the established canon the Tau are one of the easiest armies to write for, due to the fact that they are a dynamic and growing race. With each new codex there have been new expansions of their Empire. The first one focussed heavily on the coming of the Ethereals and First Contact with the Imperium leading into the beginning of the Second Sphere Expansion. The second went into more detail on Farsight's campaigns against the Orks and his split from the Empire and introduced Commanders Brightsword and Shadowsun and the Third Sphere Expansion along with a new alien race to the Empire, the Vespid.

The next book can add more diversity to the Tau without having to completely change their history, either through a new technological advancement or a new race being absorbed into the Empire, something which is harder to do for the more established armies such as Space Marines or Eldar. A complete U-turn on the Tau's approach to war (which is what a Tau piloted Assault suit would be) is not necessary and is just bad design. Instead of making the army better at shooting than other armies to compensate for their weaker close combat they'll just make our close combat better, which isn't something which most Tau players actually want.

A Town Called Malus wrote:
The next book can add more diversity to the Tau without having to completely change their history, either through a new technological advancement or a new race being absorbed into the Empire, something which is harder to do for the more established armies such as Space Marines or Eldar. A complete U-turn on the Tau's approach to war (which is what a Tau piloted Assault suit would be) is not necessary and is just bad design. Instead of making the army better at shooting than other armies to compensate for their weaker close combat they'll just make our close combat better, which isn't something which most Tau players actually want.

Here's a thought -

Assault-style battlesuits would only be available if you're playing a Farsight Enclave force. Looking back at 3rd and 4th edition Farsight, he's all about assault, and the Enclave follows his doctrines quite closely.

Come on tau fans... assault suits... everyone is too hopeful. they will only make any codex worse. but really tau and assault just wont be good even if it does happen. just wait till April. these "rumors" are probably just some kid making some "wish my army could do this" shenanigans. im hopeful too but lets face it... gw making our codex awesome.... nope.

davethepak wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:I don't get this antipathy to changes in the background.

The cheap, jaded money-grab, if anything, would be if they didn't change things and just sold you some updated rules without putting any new creative effort into it.

They don't. Big thumbs up for GW from me.

I love the old fluff as much as anyone. But... I've already read the old fluff. If I'll pay for a new book, getting a new take on the Tau (or any other faction) gives me greater value for my money. And the greater the changes in the background that they demonstrate, the greater will be the scope (and the example) for hobbyists to tinker with the background themselves, ultimately creating a richer and more diverse hobby for everyone.

Besides, the old fluff will still be there whatever happens. Noone's gonna steal your old books.

Good writers could easily add lots of new stories without damaging any existing plotlines. Its called "agreement" and professional writers/improvisers have been doing it for years.....now, I have no clue if GW can do it, based upon the necron codex, they can't.
(I am not being a hater here, but as a guy who does this sort of thing, they do a bad job at it. but that is another topic....).

But they are not writing novels or stories.

They are writing "example" background for a miniature-collection hobby. The fluff they provide serves the same purpose as the paint schemes they provide. They demonstrate what can be done. They don't force you to a particular scheme/story that has to be done. GW put a lot of effort in keeping things ambiguous for precisely that purpose: So that each player can fill in the blanks and pick the "interpretation" that suits them best. You can play Necrons as mindless Robo-Nids or as decadent feudal court. You can play Space Marines as psychopath serial-killers without a shred of humanity or as space-knights in shining armour, etc.. . Just as the recent Necron Dex vastly expanded the scope of Necrons by providing an entirely new vision, so should the Tau get a as-different-as-possible take over their last incarnation to provide the maximum amount of creative space for hobbyists to pick and define "their" particular Tau in the continuum of possible interpretations.

Zweischneid wrote:

But they are not writing novels or stories.

They are writing "example" background for a miniature-collection hobby. The fluff they provide serves the same purpose as the paint schemes they provide. They demonstrate what can be done. They don't force you to a particular scheme/story that has to be done.

*snip*

so should the Tau get a as-different-as-possible take over their last incarnation to provide the maximum amount of creative space for hobbyists to pick and define "their" particular Tau in the continuum of possible interpretations.

Actually, they are writing novels. They belong to a collection called the "Black Library". The codices are supposed to give a somewhat accurate in game representation based off of the factions background. This background also serves as inspiration for the Black Library novels.


The codices are there for those that want to make a playable army out of the models and these codices are supposed to reflect the backstory and setting. The fact that you are being so stubbornly abrasive on this matter is very curious when you claim to be a model collector/painter with no interest in the rules.
Remind us again why you are even arguing about this if you don't care about the rules.

BTW, if the fluff and rule changes remove playable units, then they are "forcing" us to play a particular scheme/story. This is due to the fact that if you want to play a game outside of your normal circle of friends then most players are going to want you to play the edition legal codex. Edition legal has been defined by GW as to being the most recent codex released for sale for each playable faction.

So you see, for those of us that actually play the game, these changes can be a very bad thing, and to paraphrase/turn a mirror on one of your earlier statements,"Seeing as the rules don't matter to you, If they don't change the background, you can always sit in your basement and admire the figures you have collected."

So, Is the real reason that you are here is that you hate the Tau backstory?

Is it that you hate the Tau models?

Or is it that you just hate the Tau (Hate the entirety of their backstory, models and concept)?

By the way that you are pushing for "a as-different-as-possible take over their last incarnation"(Your words) It seems that you just hate the Tau.

If you hate the Tau then why does it matter to you what backstory they have?

It shouldn't matter a bit. The only way I can see why you would be involved in the discussion is if your hatred of the Tau has reached a point of making you irrational on the very subject of the Tau.

Did a Tau kill your puppy, date your sister or are you just being a Hater?
Seriously, you are coming across as someone that just wants to ruin something that others like just because you don't.

Personally, I can't see any real problems with adding cc into the tau codex, and by cc, I mean better than kroot atm, because they aren't good. The problem I have is putting it on Tau suits. The tau abhor close combat; they find it barbaric. They only justification I can see is more friends for the tau, but it looks like thats going to be a no go from the current mini dex rubbish. I can't see why they just can't keep kroot in the book and make a minidex for them.

If this were to come to pass, the thing that would irritate me the most is that they would be doing it for the very reason I got into the Tau. I was looking for the closest thing to a mercenary "rag-tag" band of fighters and the Tau were the closest. I also really liked the counter point of the look of the hi-tech tau next to the primitive mad-max apocolyptic look of the kroot.

I've been waiting since the first rulebook for there to be more alien auxilla. Vespids were ok for about a year until 5th ed hit but if they and the kroot were tweaked and you added another race I would be happy. I would then buy my first Imperial models(Guard) to ally in as Gue'vesa. Probably wouldn't be very competitive but, to me, it would look amazing and I think that it would be fun to play.

It would have a commander, 2 crisis units, 1 fire warrior team, 1-2 kroot kindreds, 1-2 Vespids, 1 of whatever was added, 1 markerlight unit, 2 Tau Heavies and use the rest of the points on IG.
Would play around with the composition for light scouting forces, rugged strike force and whatever else looked fun.

(Sigh)Will have to wait until next year and see what they do with my army. If it turns out bad and Narrativehammer turns into what I fear that it will be(2 hour Beer and pretzel arguments because no one can aggree on who is narrating), then our game store does have a massive FoW player base.

For what it's worth a guy at my local GW who's been playing for god knows how long, is pally with some of the GW higher ups (and happens to be a big tau player) told me that the design team wanted to make seperate Tau and Kroot codexes.

Now bear in mind, this is simply idle chatter about what they wanted to do I was told a few months ago.

Ovion wrote:For what it's worth a guy at my local GW who's been playing for god knows how long, is pally with some of the GW higher ups (and happens to be a big tau player) told me that the design team wanted to make seperate Tau and Kroot codexes.

Now bear in mind, this is simply idle chatter about what they wanted to do I was told a few months ago.

Actually this wouldn't be to far from the mark, there was originally a kroot mini-dex in..Chapter Approved I think? Maybe White Dwarf.

focusedfire wrote:


Actually, they are writing novels. They belong to a collection called the "Black Library". The codices are supposed to give a somewhat accurate in game representation based off of the factions background. This background also serves as inspiration for the Black Library novels.

Sorry to tell you, but 'Black Library' has been incorporated as an entirely different company from the Game Studio (even though they still belong to the same holding).

The very reason they did so was - explicitly - so that they would not be creatively bound by the Game Studio. BL has always - knowingly and with full purpose - created different "version", "variations", "interpretations" of the material. It is pretty much their raison d'etre and why they are "Black Library" and not just "Games Workshop" Novels.

They don't try to be congruent with the Game Studio (which again has a different take than Forgeworld, which have yet another take on it than FFG, which is again different to DoW, etc.., etc.. etc..).

You can find an example of this below at about 17:40 to about 18:50 (or possibly to the very end).

focusedfire wrote:

So, Is the real reason that you are here is that you hate the Tau backstory?

Is it that you hate the Tau models?

Or is it that you just hate the Tau (Hate the entirety of their backstory, models and concept)?

By the way that you are pushing for "a as-different-as-possible take over their last incarnation"(Your words) It seems that you just hate the Tau.

If you hate the Tau then why does it matter to you what backstory they have?

It shouldn't matter a bit. The only way I can see why you would be involved in the discussion is if your hatred of the Tau has reached a point of making you irrational on the very subject of the Tau.

Did a Tau kill your puppy, date your sister or are you just being a Hater?
Seriously, you are coming across as someone that just wants to ruin something that others like just because you don't.

I like the Tau. I even have a sizable Tau army.

The debate doesn't even specifically address the Tau. It applies equally to Necrons or Space Marines or Eldar etc..

What I was pointing out was that several people here have called GW's approach to fluff "lazy" or "sloppy" or "a jaded money-grab" because they don't produce internally coherent narratives across all incarnations of their IP. To which I responded, that this is neither "lazy" or "sloppy" or "purely-profit-driven", but an intrinsic core value of their IP-development. They knowingly, purposefully and explicitly put variations, ambiguities and different angles on the same source material, invest a lot of effort to do so, and do so with the specific idea that hobbyists will take it as an inspiration to do so themselves.

Dan Abnett's BL 40K ≠ Graham McNeill's BL 40K ≠ Forgeworld ≠ FFG 40K ≠ Game Studio 40K ≠ Game Studio 40K from a different Edition ≠ Another Hobbyist's 40K ≠ Your 40K.

They put a lot of work into making this happen. You can disagree with this policy (while I don't think it is a bad idea at all) and we can discuss it. Yet, either way, you should realize that it is a fully purposeful and intended policy, not a lazy oversight on their behalf. So expect to see it applied to future Tau releases as well.

I think that some people are getting a bit worked up for the wrong reasons. We should be focusing our hate like a laser, and together, we can fire it threw the warp and possibly do some kind of brain surgery on the tard that had the 2 different codex idea in the first place. If we blow there minds enough, then they might possibly be almost normal enough to write a single book containing kroot that tau fans will enjoy, and randoms wont hate on as much.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Ovion wrote:For what it's worth a guy at my local GW who's been playing for god knows how long, is pally with some of the GW higher ups (and happens to be a big tau player) told me that the design team wanted to make seperate Tau and Kroot codexes.

Now bear in mind, this is simply idle chatter about what they wanted to do I was told a few months ago.

Actually this wouldn't be to far from the mark, there was originally a kroot mini-dex in..Chapter Approved I think? Maybe White Dwarf.

Way back even before the WD article... when GW first decided to add a new race they designed 3 separate races... Tau, Kroot, and Demiurge... and were going to pick the best. In the end they mixed the concepts of the three together. The kroot mercenary list that was released in WD was a purer form of the Kroot rules GW had put together prior to mixing the concepts of the three together. I'm skeptacle of GW spinning off the Kroot but more than any other part of any other army they make the most sense, since they have the most prior work that could justify that treatment as well as the fluff as mercenaries.

In WHFB, one of the standing rumors is that GW is planning an Allies style book with 4 different mini-lists... if that were true, I could see GW deciding to do the same with 40k. It might be neat to see Blood Axe mercenaries or Rogue Traders treated in a book of that sort.

Something no one on here has really thought about is that its possible that GW would consider yanking the Kroot because they feel the updated Tau codex is too full of new ideas, and with the easy out of separating Kroot it gives them a way to give you guys more. For all the shortcomings of Daemons being pulled from the Chaos SM codex, Codex: Chaos Daemons certainly provides more options to Daemons than CSM ever did but also gave the CSM's codex the room to grow.

Logan wrote:to the Assault Crisis Suits

I literally said "Ew!" as soon as I read that. Why Lord? Why would you allow such awful things?

Considering the heavy anime influence on the Tau, I was always amazed they didn't have Laser swords or forearm blades to begin with.

Also please consider that since the Tau are crap at hand to hand they would eventually develop new ways of not being crap at hand to hand. From a logical point of view, the crisis suits are the obvious starting point for a assault oriented troop.

You mean drones right.

Buttons wrote:

Logan wrote:to the Assault Crisis Suits

I literally said "Ew!" as soon as I read that. Why Lord? Why would you allow such awful things?

Because it - quite literally - cannot offend or hurt anybody

Those who like to play their Tau in fresh ways can do so.

Those who do not like the idea, can just ignore those new options.

Everybody happy


Why would anyone want new Tau stuff that just replicates stuff that already exists.. such as shooty suits... THAT would be a waste of time and effort!

adamsouza wrote:Considering the heavy anime influence on the Tau, I was always amazed they didn't have Laser swords or forearm blades to begin with.

Also please consider that since the Tau are crap at hand to hand they would eventually develop new ways of not being crap at hand to hand. From a logical point of view, the crisis suits are the obvious starting point for a assault oriented troop.

But the Tau aren't crap at hand to hand purely from a physical point. Physically they are pretty much the same as a normal human. The real difference is their attitude to war, regarding application of overwhelming firepower as the key to victory and close combat as barbaric.

Also consider that they do not have limitless resources to pour into replacing soldiers and equipment lost in battle. It is a lot easier to keep your soldiers alive and equipment intact if you keep the enemy at range and fighting on your terms through tactical retreats luring them into prepared kill zones. The Imperium can send a whole regiment of Imperial Guard on a suicidal bayonet charge because they have plenty more where they came from, the Tau don't.

I think the picture of the conversion someone posted on the first page also points something out... who say's its a Tau crisis suit?-Demiurge/space dwarf were rumored as a new auxiliary race and they supposedly supplied bits of tech to the Tau... and tougher close combat suits could just as easily be something of their devising.

The real difference is their attitude to war, regarding application of overwhelming firepower as the key to victory and close combat as barbaric.

I respect that argument, but the history of warfare shows that tactics change over time to meet the needs on the battlefield.

Quite literally, every other race in the galaxy overwhelms Tau in assaults, and their current strategy of "shoot'em before they get close" isn't as dependable as the need it to be.

HoverBoy wrote:You mean drones right.

Not in their current flying incarnation. Maybe something along the lines of an unmanned crisis suit.

In any case, their tactics would evolve in a galaxy where assault is an unavoidable reality.

Secondly, as others have suggested, it is doubtful that GW would remove Kroot and vespid from the Tau Codex without cooking up something new to take their place. Since they would be removing the assault oriented portion og he army list, it only makes sense that they would devise new assault oriented replacements with a more distinctly Tau flavor.

adamsouza wrote:

The real difference is their attitude to war, regarding application of overwhelming firepower as the key to victory and close combat as barbaric.

I respect that argument, but the history of warfare shows that tactics change over time to meet the needs on the battlefield.

Quite literally, every other race in the galaxy overwhelms Tau in assaults, and their current strategy of "shoot'em before they get close" isn't as dependable as the need it to be.

I agree with this. Rather than add CC to counter this I would prefer to see an attempt to maybe improve them through special rules, similar to IG orders.

Off the top of my head I think a rule called "Step Back" or something might work. In the assault phase after shooting the Fire Warrior team takes a leadership test. If it passes then the unit may immediately move D6" provided that their movement takes them away from the enemy they shot at.

This would allow us to maximise our Guns range as it could give us some rounds of shooting where we stay out of the enemies shooting range. As it is now our Fire Warriors shoot at max range (30") at a Space Marine squad and kill maybe a couple. In their turn the Space Marines move forwards 6" and can shoot us, so our extra 6" range doesn't really mean much.

Here's an idea. Instead of removing Kroot from the Tau book maybe include a full Kroot FOC (for Kroot only armies) and an allied Kroot FOC in the Tau book... IMO pulling the Kroot out of the Tau book is dumb because they are part of the Tau Empire. The mentality of "well just cut it out of here and paste it somewhere else" is just bad.....seriously bad.

The only way I'd get behind it is if the Kroot mercenary list were released like next month with a list of their battle brothers (along with any uber special rules for allying with Tau), AoCs, Desperate Allies, & Come the Apocolypse......and then ratified by the new Tau Codex coming out next year. Ratification complete with any rules updates proven necessary by the year or so of player based playtesting and input between the WD article and the final edit of the Tau Codex.

I like to see my codices well edited and well thought out. It infuriates me to get a new codex and see a rules change faq'd like six weeks later. Mercenaries in WD I'm not necessarily against, but in the format I notated above I thought would be cool. Playtest your shortsited designs in WD, solidify them by the time the actual codex produces. Not rip them out of their homes and make players photocopy pages 46-51 in WD 444....

I could see other mercenaries getting done this way
Harlequins for Eldar or Dark Eldar
Exodites for Eldar or Dark Eldar
Grot / Snotling hoarde for Orks
Hobit Sniper allies for Imperial Guard
etc, etc, etc

MightyGodzilla wrote:Here's an idea. Instead of removing Kroot from the Tau book maybe include a full Kroot FOC (for Kroot only armies) and an allied Kroot FOC in the Tau book... IMO pulling the Kroot out of the Tau book is dumb because they are part of the Tau Empire. The mentality of "well just cut it out of here and paste it somewhere else" is just bad.....seriously bad.

Interesting proposal. We already have armies with odd FoC alterations: 4HQ Space Wolves and 3 Haemonculus per HQ slot DE as well as the IA11 Farseer that gave up 2 troops and an elite for an extra heavy support choice.
If the Tau had an altered FoC like the one below, it would help make the Tau a unique army.

2 HQs 1 Auxiliary HQ

2 Elites 2 Auxiliary Elites

4 Troops 2 Auxiliary Troops

2 Fast Attack 2 Auxiliary Fast Attack

2 Heavy Support 1 Auxiliary Heavy Support

Can't say I care for that mock force-org. I don't want to have to choose between taking auxiliaries or being handicapped by having less choices. I like Kroot, I own more Vultures than most Tau players I know own Carnivores. I just don't want them forced into my list.

Now, on the other hand, if viable Tau replacements were found for them (so that FW weren't the only troop choice left), and if that were an OPTIONAL chart in the same sense as a Farsight list, that could be cool.

IF kroot are to be split into a "separate" minidaex, it damn better be printed inside the tau codex.