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1. Most of their miscasts are due to speed. They don't give things enough time to cure, giving us bent Hydra barrels and crap like that.
2. The newer models are usually free from this sort of thing. Ancient resin Baneblade? Full of miscasty horribleness. Newer models? Hardly a thing wrong with them.
Besides, the resin FW uses is actually decent stuff. their production process has at times left some things to be desired but they always send out replacements where necessary and honestly, bent barrels? you're going to have to heat-straighten resin bits like that pretty much no matter how long you leave them to cure in my experience. Not that it's much of a job; even when there's a lot of stuff bent I tend to take longer clearing off mold lines, flash and casting blocks etc.
The nature of these products entails they will take *some* amount of work, period. What folks hate about finecast is that it takes way, way more effort and still leaves an inferior result compared to more conventional resins. But FW stuff? well, I've assembled some old, old kits for folks and no they're not perfect - but they're cast in old, worn-out molds and still they're better than a lot of the finecast stuff I've seen. Boggles the mind, really. I was quite happy to hear GW making a switch to resin (I vastly prefer it to metal!) but that soon took a turn...
I guess they ironed the kinks out with plastic, or are getting some sort of deal for their molds. Despite the online rabble, most casual (ie, not online whiners) GW players think of finecast is the best thing since sliced bread, and have no objections to it.
I brought up my distaste for finecast with an old friend who picked up Chaos Marines about a month ago, and he didn't really know what I was talking about when I brought up how much better metal was. Soon, metal will just be a funny little footnote, and those of us that prefer it will be locked up and have our tongues cut out.
I'm 100% fine with a move to resin. But finecast isn't the resin we all knew about and were fine with. It's a terrible medium.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
Captain Fantastic wrote: I guess they ironed the kinks out with plastic, or are getting some sort of deal for their molds. Despite the online rabble, most casual (ie, not online whiners) GW players think of finecast is the best thing since sliced bread, and have no objections to it.
Methinks someone is mistaking apathy for empathy.
To the average 'casual' gamer finecast is the only way to get that marine character that you want since there's no metal alternative anymore. They don't buy finecast because they want to buy finecast, they buy finecast because GW took away any option and at the end of the day they want that character in their army. I don't disagree that those on here saying they will never purchase finecast are a small minority but that doesn't mean people who buy it love it.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Aerethan wrote: I'm 100% fine with a move to resin. But finecast isn't the resin we all knew about and were fine with. It's a terrible medium.
You got that right. The GW stuff is on the same plane as reinforced whipped cream.
I think if you freeze that it would hold a shape better than finecast.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
The average casual gamer will buy a finecast model, will possibly glue it together, will buy the liquid green stuff, the sculpting tools and all that. They will then never use them and probably never paint the model either.
Compel wrote: The average casual gamer will buy a finecast model, will possibly glue it together, will buy the liquid green stuff, the sculpting tools and all that. They will then never use them and probably never paint the model either.
Compel wrote: The average casual gamer will buy a finecast model, will possibly glue it together, will buy the liquid green stuff, the sculpting tools and all that. They will then never use them and probably never paint the model either.
Evidence?
Geedub themselves. Their target demographic, which doesn't include veterans or anyone with a longevity of more than 18 months.
I think a lot of casual gamers WANT to paint their models but they don't know how. My group tries to teach and help newer people paint if they want to learn, but it can take years to really get models that look halfway decent. That can be a bit of a discouragement for some is all.
Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,
Nothing like a fully Painted BadAss looking FailCast model, That when you finally reach that tournament you've been waiting for to show him off, ends up not so badass and partially melted, because its a beautiful summer day and your car wasn't an icebox the whole ride there!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/07 19:27:05
It's funny you talk about finecast melting - in Dubai, I left a Finecast model (Imotekh) out in an airconditioned room in the summer (45 degrees celsius! woo!) and nothing happened to it.
I fail to see any benefit to having soft bendable resin models. Vinyl models are soft like that and most of them look like crap if they have any weapon that needs a straight line.
Forgeworld resin is stiff enough and holds detail just fine, not sure why they wouldn't just use that.
With all of the miscasts, I'm almost certain that finecast isn't made using degassing or pressure casting methods. I could teach my 6 year old to achieve better results with relatively inexpensive materials.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
Kilkrazy wrote: I've never bought a Finecast model because I saw the quality when they first came out.
That said, it isn't the same resin as normal resin and it is more forgiving, though obviously it won't stand up to any kind of serious pressure.
Metal and polystyrene also break.
The best way to avoid tears is to treat any wargame models with a bit of care.
One of the good things with finecast is it takes really well to superglue. Like, plastic to plastic glue well. A superglue bond is stronger than the actual resin. And, like most resin, when it breaks, it doesn't bend and stress or shatter, it just snaps cleanly. So a snapped blade, with a little effort, can be glued back in place with no visible sign of the break, with a bond stronger than that part of the model was in the first place. Whereas with a metal, a snapped pole or blade meant running a pin through th part to make sure not only that it stayed there, but any weakened part from stress on the component didn't break as well.
Wait, how is superglue being stronger then the resin a good thing. Other resin is stronger then glue and breaks the same way.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
I don't want models that are easy to fix, I want models that are harder to break. Super soft bendy bubble time is not that.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
Aerethan wrote: I fail to see any benefit to having soft bendable resin models. Vinyl models are soft like that and most of them look like crap if they have any weapon that needs a straight line.
Forgeworld resin is stiff enough and holds detail just fine, not sure why they wouldn't just use that.
With all of the miscasts, I'm almost certain that finecast isn't made using degassing or pressure casting methods. I could teach my 6 year old to achieve better results with relatively inexpensive materials.
They are using a softer compound (still being tweaked) so that the can spincast them (because it's faster?). Hence all the extra flow lines, because it just doesn't work. Supposedly Trollcast have mastered it though.
In my experience, of years working in Independents stores (and GW), in terms of the % of stuff you sell, I would say (unfortunately) he is probably right. Vast majority of it would have ended up in a jumbled box at a car-boot sale a few years after it was bought, these days it just goes onto ebay.
The problem with aiming at a younger and younger demographic (comments on the 'Playstation generation' aside, kids have a lot of other distractions aimed at them and vying for their attention) I would say very few explore the painting/modelling hobby in its entirety.
ExNoctemNacimur wrote: It's funny you talk about finecast melting - in Dubai, I left a Finecast model (Imotekh) out in an airconditioned room in the summer (45 degrees celsius! woo!) and nothing happened to it.
Yes. I don't think you'll easily find "natural" conditions to melt a Finecast model
Herzlos wrote: Supposedly Trollcast have mastered it though.
Trollcast is some kind of freaking space material from the future. I have been amazed at the results. I had heard about it before the RBG kickstarter and seen some trollforged models, but the RBG plastic miniatures in trollcast are just amazing. The models are very detailed and the ones that I have seen came out unbelievably good.
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
Herzlos wrote: Supposedly Trollcast have mastered it though.
Trollcast is some kind of freaking space material from the future. I have been amazed at the results. I had heard about it before the RBG kickstarter and seen some trollforged models, but the RBG plastic miniatures in trollcast are just amazing. The models are very detailed and the ones that I have seen came out unbelievably good.
Think the last new plastic developed in a garage was back before WWII. Trollcast will likely be a combination of somewhat common plastics (or perhaps just a single plastic). One of these days I will order up one in order hand it off to a friend who has a mass spec in his lab at work to figure out what the secret recipe is.
One of the biggest indicators is that if it were truly revolutionary and new - it would have a patent (or patent pending). Right now, it is just treated as a trade secret by Trollforged and voodoo/majik by the people who look at it.
Aerethan wrote: I fail to see any benefit to having soft bendable resin models. Vinyl models are soft like that and most of them look like crap if they have any weapon that needs a straight line.
Forgeworld resin is stiff enough and holds detail just fine, not sure why they wouldn't just use that.
With all of the miscasts, I'm almost certain that finecast isn't made using degassing or pressure casting methods. I could teach my 6 year old to achieve better results with relatively inexpensive materials.
They are using a softer compound (still being tweaked) so that the can spincast them (because it's faster?). Hence all the extra flow lines, because it just doesn't work. Supposedly Trollcast have mastered it though.
Yes, the Finecast is done using spin cast resin. Assuming that you use the proper RPM settings and the correct resin formula - you can actually spin cast resin which is rock hard (if that is what you are after). The biggest advantage of spincast resin versus vacuum degassing is that it is faster and less hands on. You have an A/B hopper above the spin casting machine and the operator simply presses a button that squirts it out on demand based on the volume of the molds cavity (each mold is normally premeasured). The A/B components are shot out through a mixing nozzle that does all of that before it is even exposed to air - so you have minimal air entrainment compared to the manner in which home and garage casters mix their resins.
The only air to really worry about is the air in the mold itself. To deal with this - you need the correct clamping pressure (to prevent leakage) the correct RPM speed (to get the resin down into the cavities and the air out) and the correct pot time (to prevent the resin from setting up before the mold is full and the air completely out) - and of course the proper mold design in order to allow for venting of the air. GW is still working on their process though. There are several companies who are very good at doing it though and are able to reliably produce spin cast resin parts without significant failure rates.
Most the chotchkies you find at big box stores and discount craft stores like Hobby Lobby are spin cast (or roto cast) resins as opposed to hand cast. It is also the preferred method for most the rapid prototype companies and a bunch of the resin casters from Eastern Europe (real ones like CMK as opposed to small time ones like Scribor).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/08 17:13:29
Now granted KD does limited runs, there is no reason they need to. And that is the point. If a few guys in a garage can crank out X models per guy at that quality and those prices, you'd think a mutil million dollar corporation could figure out how to do it.
Finecast prices would on average be justified if the models were the same quality as KD or other boutique resin companies, most of which charge the same or less.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
Think the last new plastic developed in a garage was back before WWII. Trollcast will likely be a combination of somewhat common plastics (or perhaps just a single plastic). One of these days I will order up one in order hand it off to a friend who has a mass spec in his lab at work to figure out what the secret recipe is.
One of the biggest indicators is that if it were truly revolutionary and new - it would have a patent (or patent pending). Right now, it is just treated as a trade secret by Trollforged and voodoo/majik by the people who look at it.
Invention or not, the results are excellent. Given the quality, one wonders why it has not been used previously for the manufacture of miniatures. Instant Mold is similar in that it is simply a well known material that turned out to be absurdly useful for wargaming hobby projects. Had it not been marketed to me, I would never have known about it and I am grateful that someone packaged it up, told me what it is, and sold it to me for a reasonable price.
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
weeble1000 wrote: Given the quality, one wonders why it has not been used previously for the manufacture of miniatures.
One thing you will notice over time is the complete lack of technical knowledge amongst miniature manufacturers is a general rule across the board. Most do things simply because that is the way they were taught by some old guy who was taught that by some other old guy. Things like cutting molds is a simple practice of metallurgical knowledge - but if you actually sit down with some of the mold makers for the different companies...they often don't know specifically why they are doing certain things and speak almost with the reverence that you find used in the Conan for "steel".
Now granted KD does limited runs, there is no reason they need to. And that is the point. If a few guys in a garage can crank out X models per guy at that quality and those prices, you'd think a mutil million dollar corporation could figure out how to do it.
Finecast prices would on average be justified if the models were the same quality as KD or other boutique resin companies, most of which charge the same or less.
I just had a look at GW's site for the US. Lelith Hesperax, which doesn't really look that great is 20 USD - the Kingdom Death model is a lot nicer and is only 5 USD more. Most Character models at GW do cost "only" 16 USD, though.
Thank you! I knew it was done by a spin casting process! I used to work with a spin caster in making fine jewelry 35 years ago.
As soon as I saw what Finecast was and how cheap GW I knew that they would use their current metal mold making machines.
Adam's Motto: Paint, Create, Play, but above all, have fun. -and for something silly below-
"We are the Ultramodrines, And We Shall Fear No Trolls. bear this USR with pride".
Also, how does one apply to be a member of the Ultramodrines? Are harsh trials involved, ones that would test my faith as a wargamer and resolve as a geek?
You must recite every rule of Dakka Dakka. BACKWARDS.
Now granted KD does limited runs, there is no reason they need to. And that is the point. If a few guys in a garage can crank out X models per guy at that quality and those prices, you'd think a mutil million dollar corporation could figure out how to do it.
Finecast prices would on average be justified if the models were the same quality as KD or other boutique resin companies, most of which charge the same or less.
I just had a look at GW's site for the US. Lelith Hesperax, which doesn't really look that great is 20 USD - the Kingdom Death model is a lot nicer and is only 5 USD more. Most Character models at GW do cost "only" 16 USD, though.
The newer ones are getting better, but for sake of fairness I'll link these:
$30 each for an undersized plastic horse and a single piece rider that was sculpted nearly 20 years ago.
Those are proof that GW has no clue how to go about pricing their own stuff. The reasoning? The models were $12 originally in metal, raised in 2002~ to $15, then in 2006 to $20. Since finecast somehow means higher prices and lower quality, they got yet another bump in price based solely on the fact that they were resin, not that they actually cost any more to make that wasn't already covered in the lower previous prices.
Fun fact, ebay has them in metal rather often for about $10. I got every OOP elector count model from Chaosorc for $5ea.
So for $30 I can get the one model in resin or I can get 6 in metal.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
Renegades - 
= 1000pts
-and for something silly below-
