Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Individual model plastic kits are the best thing GW has whereas finecast is probably the worst. So let us hope they're done with this quagmire.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The problem all we veterans face is that the majority of sales are made to 12 year old newbies

Ridiculous statement. Back it up please?

The majority of gamers game at home. A poll, even if it covered all major GW based message boards, taking into consideration duplicate accounts, would cover a small portion of GW's customer base. The majority simply don't care enough to go onto a message board to discuss the finer points of the hobby. If GW, or any other manufacturer, had a worldwide customer base in the numbers of even the major forums combines, they wouldn't be making much money - especially with how budget concious online communities tend to be for any game system. Even veterans who don't discuss online, but game at stores, wouldn't make up the majority of sales. Game stores struggle to make enough sales to stay open a lot of the time, while the manufacturers don't. The sales are coming from somewhere.

Not all home gamers are '12 year old newbies'. They're just gamers who don't bother with discussing online, and there's a lot more of them than there is of us. Even grown adults who buy a miscast Finecast model might not know to return it, and would buy into GW's statement of the detail being better. These people, including grown adults, are still buying Finecast. They will keep buying Finecast as long as they are buying GW and don't know the issues with it. They won't know the issues until they go online, which they obviously don't do.

It's not a ridiculous statement, if anything, it's a well established truth. Have a look at a GW at a weekend, or during the summer holidays, it's positively hoaching with Little Timmy's who've just bought their copies of black reach, paints, battleforces and any other big shinies.

GW aims for 2 christmases and 2 birthdays from their customers and that's about it.

 Compel wrote:
It's not a ridiculous statement, if anything, it's a well established truth. Have a look at a GW at a weekend, or during the summer holidays, it's positively hoaching with Little Timmy's who've just bought their copies of black reach, paints, battleforces and any other big shinies.

GW aims for 2 christmases and 2 birthdays from their customers and that's about it.

Please don't confuse anecdotal evidence with real evidence.

As I said in another thread. I never see anyone buying or playing Flames of War in my FLGS. Anecdotal evidence for me says no one plays it.

As for my local GW, I see people of all ages in there whenever I happen to be there. The ones I actually see buying things are the people in their 20's. The kids (I see the same kids each time, mind) always have the same stuff, and are playing group games with a few miniatures. The older players buy stuff and leave.

-Loki-, when I worked at GW some years ago during the annual pilgrimedges to Nottingham for the sales-staff updates, 'Little Timmy' was used by the upper management when they were talking to the staff. The entire structure of their sales and in-store approach to customers is aimed at kids and their parents, from about 10-14 years old. This isn't a misconception that has come from thin air, it's actually built around the sales techniques told to staff- anyone who was worked as a staffer (at least in the UK) will attest to this. Now this may have changed since then ("ok kids are out! uni students and their loans are the new target now!") but I very much doubt it.

 Compel wrote:
It's not a ridiculous statement, if anything, it's a well established truth. Have a look at a GW at a weekend, or during the summer holidays, it's positively hoaching with Little Timmy's who've just bought their copies of black reach, paints, battleforces and any other big shinies.

GW aims for 2 christmases and 2 birthdays from their customers and that's about it.

Yeah I agree with Loki, sure the actual GW stores are full of kids, hence the reason adults don't go!

But think about it, there's no shortage of over 16's here for example, and kids use PCs all the bloody time, probably more than us old farts!

I seriously doubt that the vast majority of gamers are kids. At a guess I reckon its probably about 50/50, because kids are online all the time, and yet the huge gaming communities online such as here and warseer and such seem to be filled far more with over 21s than spotty youths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:
-Loki-, when I worked at GW some years ago during the annual pilgrimedges to Nottingham for the sales-staff updates, 'Little Timmy' was used by the upper management when they were talking to the staff. The entire structure of their sales and in-store approach to customers is aimed at kids and their parents, from about 10-14 years old. This isn't a misconception that has come from thin air, it's actually built around the sales techniques told to staff- anyone who was worked as a staffer (at least in the UK) will attest to this. Now this may have changed since then ("ok kids are out! uni students and their loans are the new target now!") but I very much doubt it.

Yeah I don't doubt it at all, but as I said above, that's the sales pitch, makes sense, but its not the be all and end all. Loads of grown ups play wargames... much of what we are saying here is conjecture, but what we do know for a fact, is that absolutely gak loads of grown men play Warhammer!

I've been to the bar in Warhammer world.. plenty of grown ups there.

Well, except for me obviously...

I think the perception of "loads of kids at GW stores" is one primarily in the UK and used as some kind of justification by people who prefer to play at home for why they prefer to do so.

There's nothing wrong with that, but there is a difference between the UK and the US which continually comes up in the way that "people play at stores" here in the US while in the UK there are large amounts who seemingly play at home. I've gone over it before, but with the US there's a decentralized populace which generally uses the stores as a "central location" and GW shops are the minority rather than the majority.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I think the perception of "loads of kids at GW stores" is one primarily in the UK and used as some kind of justification by people who prefer to play at home for why they prefer to do so.

There's nothing wrong with that, but there is a difference between the UK and the US which continually comes up in the way that "people play at stores" here in the US while in the UK there are large amounts who seemingly play at home. I've gone over it before, but with the US there's a decentralized populace which generally uses the stores as a "central location" and GW shops are the minority rather than the majority.

Oh yeah I don't doubt it, as you are aware, I've lived in California, the store scene was much bigger and better, and it absolutely has to do with geography... basically, our colonial cousins country is far too fething big! When I was in Pasadena I used to head over the the FLGS and it was always rammed with people, and I reckon 80% of them were the wrong side of 21, far more so than gaming stores in the UK.

Its as you say, just a small cultural difference that would make those centralized spots hubs of activity.

I always remember when I first met my missus and she used to say that a restaurant was "just down the road" and then we would drive for an hour! I used to say "My uncle lives 'just down the road' its a 4 minute drive, and even that's too much of a pain because there are two sets off traffic lights on the way and that's why I never go see him"

Also, I kick off (she has lived here for 3 years) when we get stuck in traffic (car is moving less than 40mph) for more than 5 minutes, and she being from LA doesn't even class anything as traffic unless you are completely static for more than the time it takes her to get dressed for a night out. The whole thing is fething insane going from LA to North Yorkshire, and you have to live it to really understand it! Ive been all over the states actually, and I just think LA is a ridiculous nightmare for car owners.. even NYC wasn't as bad.

The GW stores really are a nightmare here though, I mean, I live right next to the one in York now, maybe 5 minutes walk away, so I go in once every few months, but its literally just to get eyes on the new stuff, mentally decide what I want, and then bugger off home and buy it online! Its rammed with really loud young lads, and even one of the staff members is really weird and childlike, I remember him because I went in a few months before dark vengeance and mentioned it was Dark Angels in the new box according to the internet, then then turned around to address the tables sorta like "OK LISTEN UP DUDES! TOTALLY AWESOME DARK ANGELZ WOO HOO!" and punched the air, while I stood there feeling embarrassed on his behalf, I was with my missus as well and she looked at me as if to say "Are all your friends this weird you big hairy weirdo, take me home immediately" he also throws his hands about when he talks like Chandler off friends (doing speed), whoops and cheers incessantly, and generally acts in such an overly exuberant manner that is almost grossly offensive to such a professional and well practised miserable bastard as I am.

Youngsters are less patient to, so I suppose that's another reason there are so many in stores, as a grown man, it just seems a bit nuts to spend 20% more than I need to, when I'm never really desperate for anything that same day.

Thread derailed?

I've never bought Finecast, I always thought the cost was prohibitive for something that you can't convert easily (in my mind).

Wouldn't a set of generic part, like the SM Commander box set or the Chaos Lord box set have made more sense? Before people say "but they didn't sell that many kits of both," if they had made them really generic and multi-function, they could have. A kit that has bitz for a SM Commander, Libby, Chappy and Tech-Marine? I might have bought one of each, when I built my SM army.

A sprue that made junior officers, senior officers, commissars, psykers, advisors? By the box-load, please!

I think that it has been said before that the Empire Wizards set is probably the finest plastic box in the whole game, just due to the customisation and utility of it. Two dudes, loads of bits to do (most, though perhaps not all) of the possible options.

I miss all the old RT era guard. Thanks for posting them up folks, gave me some nice nostalgia.

I do like the idea of bundling plastic characters into the same sprue.

So you'd have a captain/Chaplain box, a Libby/Apothecary box and so on. By adding the lesser selling models to the lot, you increase the sales of those items.

If given the proper effort, that would be a quite good idea.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
I think that it has been said before that the Empire Wizards set is probably the finest plastic box in the whole game, just due to the customisation and utility of it. Two dudes, loads of bits to do (most, though perhaps not all) of the possible options.

I really wish the current plastic characters were more like that.

Yeah with a deep bitz box you can do a lot with them but I'd love to see some new options on the sprues.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Charles Rampant wrote:
I think that it has been said before that the Empire Wizards set is probably the finest plastic box in the whole game, just due to the customisation and utility of it. Two dudes, loads of bits to do (most, though perhaps not all) of the possible options.

I really wish the current plastic characters were more like that.

Yeah with a deep bitz box you can do a lot with them but I'd love to see some new options on the sprues.

It's a bit of a juggling act. More kits with less options or less kits with more options. That Battle Wizard kit might be fantastic, but its two full sprues, while a single frame character is half of a sprue. So what's better overall for the range - a box with two Empire wizards with some options or four different characters for different armies? Some characters are worth doing in a box, some aren't.

At least going the way they're going now, armies are getting some updated characters. Vampire Counts really needed it, and definitely got nice support with a new Wraith, Banshee, Necromancer and Wight King. If they went the Battle Wizard route, they would have gotten maybe a mounted and non-mounted Wight King in a box.

I guess that their thinking was that people would use that kit for conversions. I know that I'm planning on buying it to build an Arkhan the Black model. But if they got around to doing a plastic clampack Tomb Prince, Necrotect, Liche Priest and Herald, I'd probably try to buy all four ASAP.

I played with Stalingrad resin figures and it just doesn't not work, resin is great for large pieces and show models but not for small play-pieces, no finecast for me.

Finecast is a different kind of resin to the normal rigid type. It has a bendiness which makes it much more forgiving to the rough hand.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Finecast is a different kind of resin to the normal rigid type. It has a bendiness which makes it much more forgiving to the rough hand.

Then you never owned a Finecast model with a spike or thin blade: Those often break off even before reaching the store.

I've never bought a Finecast model because I saw the quality when they first came out.

That said, it isn't the same resin as normal resin and it is more forgiving, though obviously it won't stand up to any kind of serious pressure.

Metal and polystyrene also break.

The best way to avoid tears is to treat any wargame models with a bit of care.

I refuse to buy finecast anymore. Every freggin time I buy finecast I am disappointed by the quality of it. Bubbles, bent weapons/spears and ruined details. I don't know why G.W decided to do this, but it was a poor decision.

Well today we mentioned to my friends store GW rep that my finecast thunderfire cannon got melty/messed up in a sub-80 degree stay inside my truck. Replacement was offered without question. So yeah, I think GW is aware that failcast is indeed fail.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I've never bought a Finecast model because I saw the quality when they first came out.

That said, it isn't the same resin as normal resin and it is more forgiving, though obviously it won't stand up to any kind of serious pressure.

Metal and polystyrene also break.

The best way to avoid tears is to treat any wargame models with a bit of care.

One of the good things with finecast is it takes really well to superglue. Like, plastic to plastic glue well. A superglue bond is stronger than the actual resin. And, like most resin, when it breaks, it doesn't bend and stress or shatter, it just snaps cleanly. So a snapped blade, with a little effort, can be glued back in place with no visible sign of the break, with a bond stronger than that part of the model was in the first place. Whereas with a metal, a snapped pole or blade meant running a pin through th part to make sure not only that it stayed there, but any weakened part from stress on the component didn't break as well.

My Finecast Lord of Change is still lying slumped, half-painted and ruined.

Good fething riddance. You wouldn't get away with this gak in an actual industry.

 Testify wrote:
Good fething riddance. You wouldn't get away with this gak in an actual industry.

Forgeworld has been for years.

The funny thing is that rather inexpensive resins like Smooth Cast don't have that softness. The pieces I cast stay the shape they cure in.

The finecast formula is just terrible. Luckily the only finecast models I have don't have thin fiddly bits on them.

I went to a local gamestore to see if there was a metal Lucius still kicking around but had no luck. The guy managing the store called his distibutor who is going hunting in the warehouse for one tomorrow.
Here's hoping I'm lucky.

 -Loki- wrote:
Forgeworld has been for years.

1. Most of their miscasts are due to speed. They don't give things enough time to cure, giving us bent Hydra barrels and crap like that.
2. The newer models are usually free from this sort of thing. Ancient resin Baneblade? Full of miscasty horribleness. Newer models? Hardly a thing wrong with them.

I received a Dark Eldar Tantalus with almost all parts bent. They replaced most after sending them pics.

Probably because, as a new kit, they were inundated with orders and rushed as many out the door as possible. FW's problems have always been QA related, not mould or model design related.

Finecost doesn't have that luxury. It's a broken system from top to bottom.

Never bought Finecast, so I wouldn't know. But from all the trouble ive read about on these very pages, id say good riddance to it. If thats what GW are doing with a gradual phase out of Finecast.....

But you never really know what the feth is going through GW's addled corporate mind's at any time of day.