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 Bewareofthephil wrote:
I think the way to go is that of the limited edition model in the Dark Vengeance set. A really nice, detailed monopose character on a single small sprue.

If that was the direction that they take models like that, I'd be more than happy. I'd like a plastic Tau Ethereal model at some point. Preferably at the same time they become useful. I hope they do become useful because they're fun to paint.

Which furthers my point about the cost. If the cost of the mold for that LE model was so high, why was the surcharge for it only like $8? They sell all the other monopose plastics for about $13. Why on earth would you want http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440090a&prodId=prod1530068a in mold line and bubble riddled resin for $16.50 when you can have http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440090a&prodId=prod1530034a in multipart, options included near perfect cast plastic for $14.75.

Finecast as an idea is flawed, regardless of the quality of it(which does nothing to further it's value, and often harms it). I just don't understand Finecast at all. It makes no financial sense, it makes no modelling sense. Plastic is cheaper, faster, better and more consistently high quality.

I disagree, finecast as a release was a balls up. The product itself when Cast properly is fine.

Certainly every example that I have bought since its release have been without fault including the 25th anniversary marine captain.

I have found that it goes together well and the detail od good, though the increase in vents from the metal version is noticeable but no deal breaker.

The recent plastic kits are very good as well. I'm not to bothered by monoplane as plastic makes it so easy to convert them.

 notprop wrote:
I disagree, finecast as a release was a balls up. The product itself when Cast properly is fine.

Certainly every example that I have bought since its release have been without fault including the 25th anniversary marine captain.

I have found that it goes together well and the detail od good, though the increase in vents from the metal version is noticeable but no deal breaker.

The recent plastic kits are very good as well. I'm not to bothered by monoplane as plastic makes it so easy to convert them.

The point is that the resin kits are not better than the plastics in any real way. They cost more, and require more work to get them looking proper. Heaven forbid thin flimsy pieces like staves or swords.

Finecast was an okay work around, using existing moulds. It isn't a perfect medium by any stretch, but GW seems to be going the right way with new plastics.

Finecast doesn't use the same molds as metals.

Relapse wrote:
I was looking at some new releases from GW and noticed that there seem to be plastics in things I would have expected to see in Fincast. A good example is the Chaos champion for 40k or some of the Warhammer releases.
I long ago voted with my wallet on Finecast and it seems like a lot of others here have done the same. Am I living in a Fool's Paradise Thinking that GW is reconsidering putting things out in the medium of reinforced whipped cream or what?

It appears that GW got the memo what did clients think of Finecast.

New products. the new trench and ornated pillbox thing looks good. but a wall of dead cadians piled up in front of the line doesn't really appeal to me. mew!
looks like the dead cadians are permanently molded into the terrain pieces.

 insaniak wrote:
They were referred to as Imperial Guard in everything that I can recall...

Probably because of Australia.

In the UK they were definitely Imperial Army first. I was there at the time and I still have a bunch of them, both metal and plastic figures.

 Aerethan wrote:
Finecast doesn't use the same molds as metals.

I believe the original runs did, and that was one of the reasons they converted to Finecast. The ability to use the same molds, for a lower conversion costs. There is hope that the metal to finecast to plastic is the true goal. At least one model in the 'nid line, The Hive Tyrant, has gone that path.

Nah, theu said that they could reuse the masters and pick up more detail from that rather than reuse the metal molds.

They needed to make new moulds because the physical properties of liquid resin and molten metal are different. For example, the resin moulds need a lot more of the channels that let the material flow through all the voids.

They couldn't use the same molds, but they could still use the rest of the equipment that they already had (the molding machines, the spin casters, etc.). The more you can reuse, the more you can save on costs. Of course, we all know that we didn't get those savings.

As someone else pointed out, there's no way that making a plastic mold costs as much as GW tries to claim. Just look at the results from the Dreamforge Kickstarter. With just over $200K in funding (plus whatever WGF was willing to chip in), 60 mold halves have been tooled so far, and that's just for the first stage of the project.

I dont think GW have ever claimed how much their molds cost, any figure have merely been speculation on the part of online experts and pros.

 insaniak wrote:

The suggestion at the time (nothing was officially said) was that "Fine"cast was just intended to be a temporary stop-gap until they could transition everything to plastic.

This ^. Their goal has always been to transition completely to plastic. Pretty sure this has been discussed in WD over the years. I've also heard it directly from Jes Goodwin in a negotiations visit to GW.
Appears that the instability in metals prices forced the stopgap measure (Finecast) before they were able to fully implement all plastic products.

Tim

 notprop wrote:
I dont think GW have ever claimed how much their molds cost, any figure have merely been speculation on the part of online experts and pros.

If a kid of 20 something can afford to make spin molds and cast in his basement, I'm pretty sure the cost is not all that high.

And while the MASTER's were kept(which are models, not molds) the spin molds won't work with resin nor do they have room for the sprue we see on finecast.

If GW really wanted to save overhead due to metal costs, they should have done what Reaper did.

 notprop wrote:
I dont think GW have ever claimed how much their molds cost, any figure have merely been speculation on the part of online experts and pros.

Awhile back, possibly 10+ years ago, they did sometimes say in White Dwarf when talking about a new kit, that making a new set of molds for a plastic kit ran about 100,000 (not sure if USD or GBP).

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I dont think GW have ever claimed how much their molds cost, any figure have merely been speculation on the part of online experts and pros.

Awhile back, possibly 10+ years ago, they did sometimes say in White Dwarf when talking about a new kit, that making a new set of molds for a plastic kit ran about 100,000 (not sure if USD or GBP).

IF it did take that much, that would have to include design fees which are likely inflated. I'd also imagine that that price is for larger plastic kits, not the little monopose characters.

 Aerethan wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I dont think GW have ever claimed how much their molds cost, any figure have merely been speculation on the part of online experts and pros.

Awhile back, possibly 10+ years ago, they did sometimes say in White Dwarf when talking about a new kit, that making a new set of molds for a plastic kit ran about 100,000 (not sure if USD or GBP).

IF it did take that much, that would have to include design fees which are likely inflated. I'd also imagine that that price is for larger plastic kits, not the little monopose characters.

It would also have been 10+ years ago, costs must have come down or you wouldn't see all the other manufacturers coming out with as many model kits as the do.

 Aerethan wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I dont think GW have ever claimed how much their molds cost, any figure have merely been speculation on the part of online experts and pros.

If a kid of 20 something can afford to make spin molds and cast in his basement, I'm pretty sure the cost is not all that high.

And while the MASTER's were kept(which are models, not molds) the spin molds won't work with resin nor do they have room for the sprue we see on finecast.

If GW really wanted to save overhead due to metal costs, they should have done what Reaper did.

Apologies, that was in reference to plastic molds which was in discussion at the time.

We usually see figures (10k to 100k?) bandied about regarding the cost of producing a plastic mold set but as far as ive seen never anything from GW.

Of course they may well include casting machine costs/depreciation and the development of the miniature in there too.

 Aerethan wrote:
If a kid of 20 something can afford to make spin molds and cast in his basement, I'm pretty sure the cost is not all that high.

How do that kid's moulds stand up to churning out a hundred thousand units?


It's not just GW that have bandied about the high cost of injection moulds over the years. Their claims have been backed up by various other companies who have looked into plastic production and had to discard the idea due to the high start-up cost. But those costs have been falling over the last 10 years due to newer technology coming into use, which is how we've seen more and more plastic from GW. Kits can also be somewhat subsidised by the rest of the associated range. For the DV Chaplain, for example, I would suspect that the cost of his mould was covered not just by the $8 extra the box cost, but was just absorbed into the volume of DV that they expected to sell. Similarly, single-sprue character moulds can be somewhat buffered by the better selling infantry kits sold alongside them in larger quanties.

It's just a juggling act, squeezing the most value out of the sprues your budget can cover.

 Aerethan wrote:

 Bewareofthephil wrote:
I think the way to go is that of the limited edition model in the Dark Vengeance set. A really nice, detailed monopose character on a single small sprue.

If that was the direction that they take models like that, I'd be more than happy. I'd like a plastic Tau Ethereal model at some point. Preferably at the same time they become useful. I hope they do become useful because they're fun to paint.

Which furthers my point about the cost. If the cost of the mold for that LE model was so high, why was the surcharge for it only like $8? They sell all the other monopose plastics for about $13. Why on earth would you want http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440090a&prodId=prod1530068a in mold line and bubble riddled resin for $16.50 when you can have http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440090a&prodId=prod1530034a in multipart, options included near perfect cast plastic for $14.75.

Finecast as an idea is flawed, regardless of the quality of it(which does nothing to further it's value, and often harms it). I just don't understand Finecast at all. It makes no financial sense, it makes no modelling sense. Plastic is cheaper, faster, better and more consistently high quality.

So if you don't understand something, that means it's stupid and/or wrong?

In second edition, the Imperial Guard plastic kits were actually their stormtroopers, who looked vaguely like WW2 Commandos.

They came in a box of 6 for a fiver.

The second and 4th guy in this picture of my command squad are them.

 Compel wrote:
In second edition, the Imperial Guard plastic kits were actually their stormtroopers, who looked vaguely like WW2 Commandos.

They came in a box of 6 for a fiver.

The second and 4th guy in this picture of my command squad are them.

Cool squad.

Yeah after making some pretty cool multipart multipose troops in RT, in 2nd edition GW decided to do metal troops and 1 pose plastic elites in 2nd edition.

I think they did it because they hate us.
Or because they hate money.
Maybe both.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
They needed to make new moulds because the physical properties of liquid resin and molten metal are different. For example, the resin moulds need a lot more of the channels that let the material flow through all the voids.

and by Tannhauser 42

They couldn't use the same molds, but they could still use the rest of the equipment that they already had (the molding machines, the spin casters, etc.). The more you can reuse, the more you can save on costs. Of course, we all know that we didn't get those savings.

As someone else pointed out, there's no way that making a plastic mold costs as much as GW tries to claim. Just look at the results from the Dreamforge Kickstarter. With just over $200K in funding (plus whatever WGF was willing to chip in), 60 mold halves have been tooled so far, and that's just for the first stage of the project.

I always thought that Finecast was a resin hybrid material, which is why I still believe that it is being used with their current mold making machines.

If, as you say, plastic molds are cheap(ish), then why are most Wood Elves in metal?

Can we please stop comparing Reapers Bomes material to Finecast or any other resin? It really is not the same quality. The Reaper Bines plastic is about what you'd find in a normal board game miniature.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Like Insaniak said Finecast is sort of GW's transition from metal to plastic.

GW last year reportedly decided that metal prices were too volatile for them and decided to get out of the metal model business. Plus metal has other disadvantages for complex models, too heavy, hard to hold together etc.

BUT they have thousands and thousands of models with molds made for metal. So they developed Finecast as a mid-term subsititute to keep all those models in production while they put out more plastic than ever before.

But not plastic Battle Sisters. Never plastic Battle Sisters.

And it would have been fine if their resin had the quality of say Reaper's Bones line.

But instead they got a substandard method and worse yet raised prices on it.

It's a pretty big black eye for them but unless they decide to go back to metal I don't see it disappearing any time soon.

This is the only good news related to failcast i've ever heard. Bless you.

 insaniak wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
If a kid of 20 something can afford to make spin molds and cast in his basement, I'm pretty sure the cost is not all that high.

How do that kid's moulds stand up to churning out a hundred thousand units

It won't. No spincast mould will last anything like that long. IIRC the metal ones at least, need to be replaced every couple hundred casts due to damage from bending to remove the casts. Vacuum form resin moulds are the same, but need replaced even more often.

 insaniak wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
If a kid of 20 something can afford to make spin molds and cast in his basement, I'm pretty sure the cost is not all that high.

How do that kid's moulds stand up to churning out a hundred thousand units?


It's not just GW that have bandied about the high cost of injection moulds over the years. Their claims have been backed up by various other companies who have looked into plastic production and had to discard the idea due to the high start-up cost. But those costs have been falling over the last 10 years due to newer technology coming into use, which is how we've seen more and more plastic from GW. Kits can also be somewhat subsidised by the rest of the associated range. For the DV Chaplain, for example, I would suspect that the cost of his mould was covered not just by the $8 extra the box cost, but was just absorbed into the volume of DV that they expected to sell. Similarly, single-sprue character moulds can be somewhat buffered by the better selling infantry kits sold alongside them in larger quanties.

It's just a juggling act, squeezing the most value out of the sprues your budget can cover.

Startup costs for injection molding generally includes the machine itself on top of the CNC's for making the molds. GW very much already has injection machines that are surely paid off by now. Once you already have the machinery paid off, the only real costs behind a new mold are design costs.

 Compel wrote:
In second edition, the Imperial Guard plastic kits were actually their stormtroopers, who looked vaguely like WW2 Commandos.

They came in a box of 6 for a fiver.

The second and 4th guy in this picture of my command squad are them.

Actually those guys are Storm Troopers!

So to sum it up:

1.) There are models with high production numbers like standard troops, multiple elite troops, maybe one or two HQ Blisters per army, even limited edition starter models (also 10,000+). As plastic is still cheaper than resin or metal, with these making plastic moulds is the most economic. Moulds for plastic are made of steel and AFAIK cost around 10-20k $.

2.) There are models with low production numbers like special characters, most elite troops etc. As moulds for resin or metal miniatures are dirt cheap, it is more economic to produce these low runs in metal or resin. You use one master and regularly make rubber moulds from them, as rubber moulds wear out rather quickly due to tearing etc when making the model (undercuts!). When an exchange of moulds is necessary, it takes only a small effort to transform moulds for metal to moulds for resin, as you use the same master. That's why GW can easily transfer metal models to Finecast models in huge waves, not limited by exchange costs (they actually save money by changing to Finecast) but by the number of new releases the customer accepts per month.

While GW reduces the number of Finecast kits a bit (and doesn't push FLGSs to sell them), they will not be phased out, as there is always a need for low run models.