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Tycho wrote:

How so?

lol You ask that and then detail three or four other ways Chaos does NOT have. In addition the the LR variants, drop pods, homing beacons, the LS Storm and jumping from Storm Ravens (I realize this is BA only), there are also jump packs. Standard marine chapters can actually attach jump packs to regular old assault marines and are NOT stuck with Warp Talons. You can say "But drop pods aren't all that great" all you want. They are MUCH better than not having any at all.

Yes, I detailed what Chaos does not have, however for a CC army those just aren't great choices. Razorback? Can be imitated to an extent by loading extra weapons - and even shooty passengers - into a Chaos Rhino, and neither allows assaulting anyway. LS Storm? Yeah, because as I said those 5 scouts amount to absolutely nothing. LR variants wouldn't matter much because people still wouldn't use them much because of the price. Drop pods aren't bad at all, but it's just that they tend to be best used for shooty stuff, because then you actually at least might do a bit of damage before getting shot off the table. Mind you, I do think Chaos should have drop pods, because it doesn't make any sense not to have them - but they're not really a solution for fixing CC units which was the thing being addressed. AS a note I do have over 2000 points of Chaos myself, so it's not like I'm biased against them despite them only being my tertiary army.

And as for the whole jump infantry thing, yeah, only BA gets them as scoring/troops. I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE jump infantry as troops for my BT, not that it'll ever happen, and thus in fact I might just have to use my BT jump models as allied counts-as-BA to achieve that effect (though I also have 10 Death Company models I could use as regular BA jump infantry). Rules out IG allies in those instances but heck, can't have it all. Also, while locally everyone keeps telling me how crap jump marines (and well, just about everything else) are nowadays, but in my books they're kinda superior to the other available "transport" options given the low cost. Plus they just look plain cool, to boot (not that Rhinos and Land Raiders and such don't).

Note that only BA can put Jump Packs on regular scoring marines. Making claim that "Loyalists can do it" is overly broad and implies that all loyalists or at least C:SM can do it, which is borderline dishonest.

They are battle bros w/BA. Guess what that means? LOYALISTS CAN TAKE THEM AS TROOPS. Not sure what's so hard about that?

LS Storm? Yeah, because as I said those 5 scouts amount to absolutely nothing. LR variants wouldn't matter much because people still wouldn't use them much because of the price. Drop pods aren't bad at all, but it's just that they tend to be best used for shooty stuff, because then you actually at least might do a bit of damage before getting shot off the table. Mind you, I do think Chaos should have drop pods, because it doesn't make any sense not to have them - but they're not really a solution for fixing CC units which was the thing being addressed. AS a note I do have over 2000 points of Chaos myself, so it's not like I'm biased against them despite them only being my tertiary army.

Your points are well taken. I am looking at it in more of a broad sense. For example, take the LS - Chaos doesn't even have scouts so the LS with RAW wouldn't help them, but what is it really? It's a fast, cheap, open topped transport. The land raider variants? In my area many would actually use them. The standard Chaos LR really isn't worth it imo, but some of the variants start to be worth their points. It wouldn't take much to fix this book, but as it is, the Chaos 'dex just feels incomplete.

So Chaos has access to the two best fliers in the game then? After all, you can ally with IG, I don't see the problem.

Also, there's this small problem of having to take an HQ that most likely won't achieve anything useful in order to get access to said Assault Marines. It also prevents you from taking other allies, like the aforementioned IG. If anything, excepting the absence of ATSKNF, Chaos has no reason whatsoever to complain about Troops. Compared to all the loyalist Codices except GK (who aren't really a valid comparison) and SW (who are OP anyway) the normal CSM is in a pretty good place, as are Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Cultists (and yes, I know PMs and NMs aren't technically troops, but neither are Assault Marines outside of BA). Berzerkers suffer from the same problem as Templars currently do in that the only way to get into combat other than walking is by taking a Land Raider. This isn't unique to Chaos. The problem isn't directly that Chaos CC mobility sucks (although it's certainly far from stellar), it's that CC in general in 6th took a kick to the groin.

On an ending note, Chaos can infiltrate Khorne Berzerkers with Huron or Ahriman (fluff just whinced) and potentially get 60 Khorne Berzerkers in the enemy Deployment Zone turn 1. The closest loyalists come is infiltrating one unit with Shrike, or buying Drop Pods for 6 Squads of Death Company and Astorath, at which point you have 0 scoring units.

So Chaos has access to the two best fliers in the game then? After all, you can ally with IG, I don't see the problem.

So you call me dishonest. I show you how I was NOT dishonest, and THAT'S your answer!? You just change the point of focus? The main point (with that particular line of reasoning) was NOT that Chaos doesn't have fliers, nor was it that our Troops are bad (although they are far from what they probably should be), the point was the general lack of decent ways to get their CC troops into combat ... and you bring up fliers when I make a valid point?

Also, there's this small problem of having to take an HQ that most likely won't achieve anything useful in order to get access to said Assault Marines. It also prevents you from taking other allies, like the aforementioned IG. If anything, excepting the absence of ATSKNF, Chaos has no reason whatsoever to complain about Troops. Compared to all the loyalist Codices except GK (who aren't really a valid comparison) and SW (who are OP anyway) the normal CSM is in a pretty good place, as are Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Cultists (and yes, I know PMs and NMs aren't technically troops, but neither are Assault Marines outside of BA). Berzerkers suffer from the same problem as Templars currently do in that the only way to get into combat other than walking is by taking a Land Raider. This isn't unique to Chaos. The problem isn't directly that Chaos CC mobility sucks (although it's certainly far from stellar), it's that CC in general in 6th took a kick to the groin.

Agreed that the Allies system is a little clumsy. Point is it's still an option. Bringing Templars into the argument only reinforces just how weak the Chaos book really is. A brand new book has the same issue as one that was written how long ago? Agreed CC in general took a hit in 6th for everyone. No argument there at all. IMO you are wrong however about the Chaos CC mobility. It is indeed sub-par at best.

Your point about Ahriman and Huron? When you respond with "the closest Loyalists come is ... or .... or ..." it is plainly evident that my point about lack of CC mobility when compared to other MEQs is valid.

orz192 wrote:
Well apparently Phil Kelly can make mistakes too.

Yup. I'm withholding personal judgement because I don't know the overall conditions (deadlines, impositions from the top, poor editing input, etc). I think he may still put out good books.

It's a rare thing for me to say this, but I'd have done better. Give me couple of friends from my club, an office with a gaming table and proxies for models, three weeks and a supply of pizza and coffee, and we'd come up with something more versatile, fluffier and with more viable options in the long term.

Tycho wrote:

So Chaos has access to the two best fliers in the game then? After all, you can ally with IG, I don't see the problem.

So you call me dishonest. I show you how I was NOT dishonest, and THAT'S your answer!?

You didn't say a word about allies until after I called you out. That's blatant lying, sorry mate. Even if you didn't it's dishonest, seeing as you still have to pay an HQ tax.

I only used Templars as an example because they're (supposed to be) the most melee-centric of the loyalists. All the loyalists, barring Blood Angels, have the same issues getting Assault units into combat.

You didn't say a word about allies until after I called you out.

Yeah, figured it was kind of obvious. Most people seem to have gotten that. Sorry you missed it.

Even if you didn't it's dishonest, seeing as you still have to pay an HQ tax

There is an HQ tax. It changes my point ... not at all actually.

I only used Templars as an example because they're (supposed to be) the most melee-centric of the loyalists. All the loyalists, barring Blood Angels, have the same issues getting Assault units into combat.

No, don't go back on that now. It was a perfect example. You're right. Outside of BA they ARE suppose to be the most melee-centric. And they have the EXACT same issue Chaos has. Only the Templar codex is YEARS (don't recall how old actually) older. That is an unacceptable condition.

Tycho wrote:

You didn't say a word about allies until after I called you out.

Yeah, figured it was kind of obvious. Most people seem to have gotten that. Sorry you missed it.

If you knew you didn't say something, why did you insist you did?

Even if you didn't it's dishonest, seeing as you still have to pay an HQ tax

There is an HQ tax. It changes my point ... not at all actually.

If you knew you didn't say something, why did you insist you did?

Not sure what you mean by that. I meant that I thought the Allies thing was obvious and didn't NEED pointed out.

Space Wolves don't exactly have a lot of good ways to get Grey Hunters into combat either. Sure, they have Thunderwolves, whereas Chaos has Spawn, Bikers and Raptors. No one other than BA have good ways to get assault Troops Choices into combat.

lol! Yeah, cause SW need help with ANYTHING. So your Templar comparison back-fired and now you're trying to compare the Chaos 'dex to one that is blatantly OP and doesn't even need what Chaos is lacking. I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point anymore unless it's just arguing for the sake of arguing. Anyway, it's been great but I think we're done here.

 Sephyr wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

-Fleshmetal: Merita a whole entry in the wargear section. Exactly one unit can take it and comes with it standard. It would cost a line of text and some ricing to let Chaos Lords take it (make your Iron Warriors big baddie) and allow tons of fun conversions beyind termi armor.

The rest of your post is valid, but there's three units with it (Warp smith, Obliterators, Mutilators)

Course that seems to be another issue, Hades autocannon is only on two things and it's standard, and cannot be taken on anything else, and it's the new vehicles (Heldrake, Forgefiend) , Bale flamer is only on ONE (Heldrake), and so is Ectoplasm (Forgefiend), as well as the melta cutters (Maulerfiend)

Well spotted, but to be fair I don't quite get the fleshmetal change for Oblits and Mutilators since they retain the 2+/5+ combo. Maybe it's just a mechanical trick to explain why they have Slow and Purposeful instead of Relentless.

But yes, it's odd. Why no Predator with Hades sponsons, or giving a Hades option to oblits instead of the assault Cannon (though it was nice to include the AC, mind). If they really are so keen on not making CSM be just spiky marines, different weapons lots of units can take go a looong way.

 labmouse42 wrote:


Artificer armor is a lot less common now. Only techmarines, Azrael, and Ezekiel have it in the DA book. Noone in the CSM codex has it.
Terminator armor is the only way to give your non-named characters a 2+ armor save. Terminator armor has a drawback by not being able to sweep, or ride in rhinos.

But there is a lot of non-termi 2+ in books that will be around for a looong time. Sanguinary Guard (BA in general, in fact), Sempiternal weave on lords a plenty in the Necron book (Who are T5 and can pop back up, mind). It's still a factor and will be for the lion's share of 6Th Ed's run.

Okay Sanguinary guard have no invulnerable. Necron lords are good but hardly overpowered all gw needs to do to fix them is take away mss.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tycho wrote:

So Chaos has access to the two best fliers in the game then? After all, you can ally with IG, I don't see the problem.

So you call me dishonest. I show you how I was NOT dishonest, and THAT'S your answer!?

You didn't say a word about allies until after I called you out. That's blatant lying, sorry mate. Even if you didn't it's dishonest, seeing as you still have to pay an HQ tax.

I only used Templars as an example because they're (supposed to be) the most melee-centric of the loyalists. All the loyalists, barring Blood Angels, have the same issues getting Assault units into combat.

Exactly Deathwing builds have to DS in to get close take a 250 pt movement tax or walk across. Melee is far harder to achieve in 6th that it has ever been. Also i wish taking a capain with a jumppack made assault marines troops.

Tycho wrote:
Standard marine chapters can actually attach jump packs to regular old assault marines and are NOT stuck with Warp Talons.

Implying that there's no way to take anything other than Warp Talons. Dishonest.

Tycho wrote:
Standard marine chapters can actually attach jump packs to regular old assault marines and are NOT stuck with Warp Talons.

Making a statement that makes no sense; the entire point of Assault Marines is that they come with Jump Packs, just like Raptors. You don't attach jump packs to anything. Since this is an option Chaos has as well, this statement is pointless.

Tycho wrote:

B. The first time I brought up the jump troops I specifically mentioned attaching them to regular Marines. Apologies for just implying that meant scoring.

Claiming you said something you didn't AKA lying. Which I and another poster pointed out once already.

Tycho wrote:

Your point about Ahriman and Huron? When you respond with "the closest Loyalists come is ... or .... or ..." it is plainly evident that my point about lack of CC mobility when compared to other MEQs is valid.

Making a point about how Chaos has an alternative that is superior to the loyalist counterpart is evidence that it's somehow worse? Wut?

Tycho wrote:

lol! Yeah, cause SW need help with ANYTHING. So your Templar comparison back-fired and now you're trying to compare the Chaos 'dex to one that is blatantly OP and doesn't even need what Chaos is lacking. I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point anymore unless it's just arguing for the sake of arguing. Anyway, it's been great but I think we're done here.

Claiming that a Codex does not need issues adressed because it's more powerful than your own is pretty nonsensical. Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines and Black Templars DON'T have good ways for their CC Troops (Space Marines don't even have any CC Troops outside melee scouts and, yeah...) to get into combat outside of Land Raiders, just as Chaos don't. Blood Angels have exactly one good way, which is to jump pack across the board. Putting stuff in a Stormraven is a waste.




And if loyalists all count as having scoring Assault Marines then Chaos counts as having Daemons. Screamers and Flamers are pretty good, no?

Sephyr wrote:

orz192 wrote:
Well apparently Phil Kelly can make mistakes too.

Yup. I'm withholding personal judgement because I don't know the overall conditions (deadlines, impositions from the top, poor editing input, etc). I think he may still put out good books.

It's a rare thing for me to say this, but I'd have done better. Give me couple of friends from my club, an office with a gaming table and proxies for models, three weeks and a supply of pizza and coffee, and we'd come up with something more versatile, fluffier and with more viable options in the long term.

I would actually like to know what are the traditional procedures that GW employees and writers follow when they make rulebooks and codices, and if we found out, maybe we could humbly suggest things that would add balance maybe. If e figured out what goes into making a codex, then possibilities open up.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Space Wolves don't exactly have a lot of good ways to get Grey Hunters into combat either. Sure, they have Thunderwolves, whereas Chaos has Spawn, Bikers and Raptors. No one other than BA have good ways to get assault Troops Choices into combat.

From all the posts on this topic, universally SMs(chaos and all flavors of loyalist) don't have good methods to get their CC specialists into combat that you guys prefer, and ork trukks are only MARGINALLY better than rhinos because it has assault vehicle rules, other than that is is much worse that rhinos(AV10 around, Open-topped w/ no self repair option or negate shaken/stunned). Just stick to your rhinos and hug cover along the board and stop belly-aching about how some armies are better than other regarding transports.

Claiming that a Codex does not need issues adressed because it's more powerful than your own is pretty nonsensical. Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines and Black Templars DON'T have good ways for their CC Troops (Space Marines don't even have any CC Troops outside melee scouts and, yeah...) to get into combat outside of Land Raiders, just as Chaos don't. Blood Angels have exactly one good way, which is to jump pack across the board. Putting stuff in a Stormraven is a waste.

Space wolves only major CC troops that need to get into combat are the thunderwolves, everything else is strong enough at shooting that it's best to just shoot and wait for them to attack you, not to mention C:SM has Assault Terminators. They also have Honor guard, and Command squads as well, black templars are an outdated fourth edition, yet it still has the same, if not more options as chaos when it comes to getting closer even though they have the actual good land raiders.

Tycho wrote:

Note that only BA can put Jump Packs on regular scoring marines. Making claim that "Loyalists can do it" is overly broad and implies that all loyalists or at least C:SM can do it, which is borderline dishonest.

They are battle bros w/BA. Guess what that means? LOYALISTS CAN TAKE THEM AS TROOPS. Not sure what's so hard about that?

Now this argument isn't even borderline, it is just plain dishonest. And being battle bros is meaningless for this argument, as even Allies of convenience score. This means that according to Tycho, even Eldar, IG and Tau can put jump packs on "regular, scoring marines".
Besides, by this standard CSM are horribly OP, as it has (via allies, bb or convenience) to all broken units in the game: Flamers, Screamers, Vendettas, Night Scythes etc. But this is the standard Tycho judges Loyalists, so shouldn't it be used to judge CSM also?

No, this is just desperate act from Tycho to try explain his way around the fact that he has been dishonest in this discussion, claiming things that are not true. Problem is that he just keeps digging himself deeper in the pit. Anyone can see that suddenly changing argument from "Loyalists can put Jump packs on regular scoring marines" to "Loylists can take allies that can put Jump Packs to regular scoring marines" is basically lying. And those two arguments are very, very different. And we haven't even gone to the fact that allies are not what I'd consider "regular" part of the main codex.

Another example what this Tycho standard is claim like "IG can give ATKSNF on their regular scoring guardsmen".

Luide wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Note that only BA can put Jump Packs on regular scoring marines. Making claim that "Loyalists can do it" is overly broad and implies that all loyalists or at least C:SM can do it, which is borderline dishonest.

They are battle bros w/BA. Guess what that means? LOYALISTS CAN TAKE THEM AS TROOPS. Not sure what's so hard about that?

Now this argument isn't even borderline, it is just plain dishonest. And being battle bros is meaningless for this argument, as even Allies of convenience score. This means that according to Tycho, even Eldar, IG and Tau can put jump packs on "regular, scoring marines".
Besides, by this standard CSM are horribly OP, as it has (via allies, bb or convenience) to all broken units in the game: Flamers, Screamers, Vendettas, Night Scythes etc. But this is the standard Tycho judges Loyalists, so shouldn't it be used to judge CSM also?

No, this is just desperate act from Tycho to try explain his way around the fact that he has been dishonest in this discussion, claiming things that are not true. Problem is that he just keeps digging himself deeper in the pit. Anyone can see that suddenly changing argument from "Loyalists can put Jump packs on regular scoring marines" to "Loylists can take allies that can put Jump Packs to regular scoring marines" is basically lying. And those two arguments are very, very different. And we haven't even gone to the fact that allies are not what I'd consider "regular" part of the main codex.

Another example what this Tycho standard is claim like "IG can give ATKSNF on their regular scoring guardsmen".

Necrons don't count for it as the Croissont list is about putting 6+ flyers out, nobody cares if your maxed out at 3 (two NS, one doom), you can only take one flamer and screamer, while the broken is a full 27 models. Vendetta's are the only one that is close and it's because people put out three, cheaply costed ones in a very good army.

His argument isn't very good mind you so I'm not going to defend it, but that isn't why those units are broken.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Claiming that a Codex does not need issues adressed because it's more powerful than your own is pretty nonsensical. Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines and Black Templars DON'T have good ways for their CC Troops (Space Marines don't even have any CC Troops outside melee scouts and, yeah...) to get into combat outside of Land Raiders, just as Chaos don't. Blood Angels have exactly one good way, which is to jump pack across the board. Putting stuff in a Stormraven is a waste.

Space wolves only major CC troops that need to get into combat are the thunderwolves, everything else is strong enough at shooting that it's best to just shoot and wait for them to attack you, not to mention C:SM has Assault Terminators. They also have Honor guard, and Command squads as well, black templars are an outdated fourth edition, yet it still has the same, if not more options as chaos when it comes to getting closer even though they have the actual good land raiders.

CC Troops with a capital T, as in Troops choices that are CC-centric. Terminators are even harder to get into CC, whereas Honour Guard and Command Squads (who shouldn't ever be run as a CC unit anyway) have the same problems as everyone else.

 ace101 wrote:
Just stick to your rhinos and hug cover along the board and stop belly-aching about how some armies are better than other regarding transports.

TBH it's not originally a complaint about bad transports, but a complaint about how hard it is to get into CC before the game's more or less over. Shooting is just so much more powerful now, on top of getting an extra turn of shooting before assaults reliably starts to happen.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


TBH it's not originally a complaint about bad transports, but a complaint about how hard it is to get into CC before the game's more or less over. Shooting is just so much more powerful now, on top of getting an extra turn of shooting before assaults reliably starts to happen.

well, if you had points and were ballsy enough, you could try 5 vanguards w/ assault packs assaulting the turn they deep strike, but then you got your scatter, but wait, DPs can take locator beacons, hmmm.....

EDIT: Heldrakes also just got a pretty big boost. Vector Strikes now Ignore cover, and it's weapon is turret mounted, and measured from the base.

i was trying to show this to some freinds of mine recently, where did you get this information as i cannot for the life of me remmber where i saw it

please and thank you

Slipknotzim wrote:

EDIT: Heldrakes also just got a pretty big boost. Vector Strikes now Ignore cover, and it's weapon is turret mounted, and measured from the base.

i was trying to show this to some freinds of mine recently, where did you get this information as i cannot for the life of me remmber where i saw it

please and thank you

The FAQ

So codex bashing aside I have seen both books make very good lists. My issue is trying to be fluffy within the confines of the codex, I have seen amazing nurgle and slaanesh lists, khorne seems to be ok and thousand sons is a bit crappy. DA has issues being deathwing or ravenwing as a whole because you have to pick a bit of everything to make a good list.

nnnnNecro-post!

Mono Ravenwing is extremely strong, although you have to buff it with AA Contemptors.

Still weak IMO but results will vary of course.

 Sephyr wrote:

Cultists are boring and cheap, which is a pity since they could have been so much fun. They could have been used for sacrifices by psykers and Apostles for re-rolls, or permit chaos marines to shoot at enemies in melee with a cultist mob because they don’t care about these dregs…but not.

Oooooo I like that idea! Hmmm... A Sorceror in a unit of Chaos Cultists may sacrifice Cultists to aid his Psychic Powers. Each sacrificed Cultist results in -1 to the Ld check. Can be done AFTER rolling. Pretty similar idea for Apostle...

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

Cultists are boring and cheap, which is a pity since they could have been so much fun. They could have been used for sacrifices by psykers and Apostles for re-rolls, or permit chaos marines to shoot at enemies in melee with a cultist mob because they don’t care about these dregs…but not.

Oooooo I like that idea! Hmmm... A Sorceror in a unit of Chaos Cultists may sacrifice Cultists to aid his Psychic Powers. Each sacrificed Cultist results in -1 to the Ld check. Can be done AFTER rolling. Pretty similar idea for Apostle...

Except that the sorcerer is already LD10, which is pretty much the max. I'd use it as a warp generator. Able to gain more Warp Tokens.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Except that the sorcerer is already LD10, which is pretty much the max. I'd use it as a warp generator. Able to gain more Warp Tokens.

Yeah, ability to get more Warp Charge would work, but only for Maledictions and Blessings.

I wasn't talking about Ld being modified with Sacrifices though. The idea was more, kill one guy to get an eleven/fail to a ten/pass or kill two guys to change a perils to a pass. Especially useful if around Fiends who reduce Ld or similar.