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Just a few more of these threads and...

Much like the Eldar created Slaanesh through extreme hedonism.

Chaos players will give birth to a new god.

The god of weeping, moaning, stamping of feet and pulling of wispy neckbeards.

 Jayden63 wrote:
So, maybe it will come to pass that DW owns the chaos codex.

But do you know how badly 30 single wound terminators do against 140 - 160 Orks? I've found that ranking in tournaments greatly depend on the luck of the favorable match up.

And there are enough ork players that show up to play in tourniments where winning or loosing isn't all important, but they can play the massive spoiler card for someone elses victory ambition.

Exactly Deathwing which is fantastic anti-chaos is at a terrible disadvantage to horde orks. I've played horde orks and i've beaten them but its never easy and there were still a lot of orks on the table.

Every army has matchup nightmares.

 Wandre wrote:
Just a few more of these threads and...

Much like the Eldar created Slaanesh through extreme hedonism.

Chaos players will give birth to a new god.

The god of weeping, moaning, stamping of feet and pulling of wispy neckbeards.

I'll have you know my neckbeard is extravagantly groomed, my good sir, and the pride our our local cribbage community!

Also, find actual points to argue from the thread, or return to admiring your oiled, waxed image on the mirror array in your walk-in closet, O stoic olympian.

 Wandre wrote:
Just a few more of these threads and...

Much like the Eldar created Slaanesh through extreme hedonism.

Chaos players will give birth to a new god.

The god of weeping, moaning, stamping of feet and pulling of wispy neckbeards.

You forgot black nail polish, heavy metal band t-shirts, and hatred of your dad! I am offended, good sir! I will see you on Boston Common at dawn sir! Bring your second.

Really the problem comparing the new DA codex and CSM codex is that...

The Dark Angels are a singular loyalist space marine chapter in one book dedicated to them. They DO have a lot of different builds but really those are just different companies.

The Chaos Marine book tried to cram the whole power armored community of the eye of terror into one book. No wonder its awful.

I think lesser units in loyalist books are seen as much more forgivable because they fit a theme (As in they are all the same chapter)

Slapping marks on generic CSM units is lazy and chaos players don't deserve that kind of treatment (I'm a chaos player too) I'm sure we would find the power level of individual CSM units to be much more acceptable if there were a lot more choices for each chaos god.

CSM are no where near perfect but they sure aren't wheelchair bound either (Well maybe Doomrider...where is he?)

 Wandre wrote:


CSM are no where near perfect but they sure aren't wheelchair bound either (Well maybe Doomrider...where is he?)

I quite agree. I can say a lot of bad things about the book, bt it's not unworkable or even weak (though I think it will -become- weak rather quickly).

The main point is (and I knoe it's not clear in the OP) that since each army only gets a book every 4-7 years, it's a wasted opportunity to do something cool and fun. It's not even a matter of space in the physical book; It's actually weird how many times they actually put something cool in there in concept ad them either gimp it or fail to use it.

-Fleshmetal: Merita a whole entry in the wargear section. Exactly one unit can take it and comes with it standard. It would cost a line of text and some ricing to let Chaos Lords take it (make your Iron Warriors big baddie) and allow tons of fun conversions beyind termi armor.

-FOC Flexibility: Again, it costs only a few extra line s on the Army List to let some very cool stuff happen that doesn't break the game Something like "An unmarked Chaos Lord on a bike can treat one unit of chais bikers as a scoring unit", or "An unmarked Chaos lord with a jump pack or wings counts one unit of Raptors or Warp Talons as scoring". Bam, you have renegades and Night Lords made more diverse and fun.

-Sorcery Weaksauceness: Again, they lose a chance to make sorcery a bit different frim just regular psykers wit more horns. Giving Tzeentch some powers that affect enemy casting in addition to a basic effect, or even a hood-like piece of wargear that makes psyker powers for friend and foe becomes wilder (a psycho version of the eldar runes). A brutal number of csm powers are barely worth the risk of getting Perils, facing Deny the Witch and so on.

-Mis-used Marks: It would take one, maybe two more pages to make marks into something more flavorful than a statline boost. They -almost- do it (nurgle marked lords can take blight greanades). Why not have a small eqipment list unlocked via Marks? Like this:

Slaanesh:
-Characters witha mark of Slaanesh can purchase a Doom Siren for X points.
-Any model marked with Slaanesh can exchange his bolter or combi-bolter for a Noise Blaster for Y points.
-Hellbrutes in a main detachments with a Slaanesh-marked Lord or Sorcerer can replace their multi-melta with a Blatmaster for X points.

You have cult terminators and bikes and more varied troops and elites, while still having the cult trrop option being something extra (Fearless, Blastmaster on infantry), not to mention having your Chaos Lord actuallý use EC-themed weaponry. Took three lines, doesn't break the game. Just price it properly. Would have made so many of us neckbears have fun for years with a new army build.

-Fleshmetal: Merita a whole entry in the wargear section. Exactly one unit can take it and comes with it standard. It would cost a line of text and some ricing to let Chaos Lords take it (make your Iron Warriors big baddie) and allow tons of fun conversions beyind termi armor.

The rest of your post is valid, but there's three units with it (Warp smith, Obliterators, Mutilators)

Course that seems to be another issue, Hades autocannon is only on two things and it's standard, and cannot be taken on anything else, and it's the new vehicles (Heldrake, Forgefiend) , Bale flamer is only on ONE (Heldrake), and so is Ectoplasm (Forgefiend), as well as the melta cutters (Maulerfiend)

 Sephyr wrote:
-Fleshmetal: Merita a whole entry in the wargear section. Exactly one unit can take it and comes with it standard. It would cost a line of text and some ricing to let Chaos Lords take it (make your Iron Warriors big baddie) and allow tons of fun conversions beyind termi armor.

Have you noticed the lack of 2+ saves for characters in the past 2 books?

Artificer armor is a lot less common now. Only techmarines, Azrael, and Ezekiel have it in the DA book. Noone in the CSM codex has it.
Terminator armor is the only way to give your non-named characters a 2+ armor save. Terminator armor has a drawback by not being able to sweep, or ride in rhinos.

This is not an accident. The GW staff are making 2+ saves less common, thereby making power weapons (and all AP3 weapons) more effective by relation. You will also notice that very few ICs have AP2 weapons (outside power fists).

This is a trend I think we will continue to see, and will be a defining feature of 6th. That means enjoy your artificer armor while you have it, C:SM, SW and BA. It's not going to be around for long.
It also is why fleshmetal was not added as a option for CSM. They are trying to get rid of 2+ saves for the most part.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

-Fleshmetal: Merita a whole entry in the wargear section. Exactly one unit can take it and comes with it standard. It would cost a line of text and some ricing to let Chaos Lords take it (make your Iron Warriors big baddie) and allow tons of fun conversions beyind termi armor.

The rest of your post is valid, but there's three units with it (Warp smith, Obliterators, Mutilators)

Course that seems to be another issue, Hades autocannon is only on two things and it's standard, and cannot be taken on anything else, and it's the new vehicles (Heldrake, Forgefiend) , Bale flamer is only on ONE (Heldrake), and so is Ectoplasm (Forgefiend), as well as the melta cutters (Maulerfiend)

Well spotted, but to be fair I don't quite get the fleshmetal change for Oblits and Mutilators since they retain the 2+/5+ combo. Maybe it's just a mechanical trick to explain why they have Slow and Purposeful instead of Relentless.

But yes, it's odd. Why no Predator with Hades sponsons, or giving a Hades option to oblits instead of the assault Cannon (though it was nice to include the AC, mind). If they really are so keen on not making CSM be just spiky marines, different weapons lots of units can take go a looong way.

 labmouse42 wrote:


Artificer armor is a lot less common now. Only techmarines, Azrael, and Ezekiel have it in the DA book. Noone in the CSM codex has it.
Terminator armor is the only way to give your non-named characters a 2+ armor save. Terminator armor has a drawback by not being able to sweep, or ride in rhinos.

But there is a lot of non-termi 2+ in books that will be around for a looong time. Sanguinary Guard (BA in general, in fact), Sempiternal weave on lords a plenty in the Necron book (Who are T5 and can pop back up, mind). It's still a factor and will be for the lion's share of 6Th Ed's run.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:
-Fleshmetal: Merita a whole entry in the wargear section. Exactly one unit can take it and comes with it standard. It would cost a line of text and some ricing to let Chaos Lords take it (make your Iron Warriors big baddie) and allow tons of fun conversions beyind termi armor.

Have you noticed the lack of 2+ saves for characters in the past 2 books?

Artificer armor is a lot less common now. Only techmarines, Azrael, and Ezekiel have it in the DA book. Noone in the CSM codex has it.
Terminator armor is the only way to give your non-named characters a 2+ armor save. Terminator armor has a drawback by not being able to sweep, or ride in rhinos.

This is not an accident. The GW staff are making 2+ saves less common, thereby making power weapons (and all AP3 weapons) more effective by relation. You will also notice that very few ICs have AP2 weapons (outside power fists).

This is a trend I think we will continue to see, and will be a defining feature of 6th. That means enjoy your artificer armor while you have it, C:SM, SW and BA. It's not going to be around for long.
It also is why fleshmetal was not added as a option for CSM. They are trying to get rid of 2+ saves for the most part.

Company Masters in the DA codex can purchase Artificer armor though. CSM Lords cannot.

 Sasori wrote:
Company Masters in the DA codex can purchase Artificer armor though. CSM Lords cannot.

Well, what do you know. Your right.

I am wrong then. 2+ saves are still nearly as common on the new ICs. CSM just got boned.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Company Masters in the DA codex can purchase Artificer armor though. CSM Lords cannot.

Well, what do you know. Your right.

I am wrong then. 2+ saves are still nearly as common on the new ICs. CSM just got boned.

Ha read that with your sig, felt appropriate.


As to the codex comparison, I think CSMs are actually quite ahead in a one to one battle with the new DAs mainly because we have 2 strengths; alot of AP2 and alot of AP3 ignoring cover. AP2 is plentiful in the codex with chosen able to take 5(!) plasmaguns, plague marine and vanilla able to take 2 per squad, and oblits and forgefiends have plasma templates, and of course we have the ever useful axe of blind fury which gives out AP2 like the antidote is in it. Then we also ignore a lot of cover with AP3 with the bale flamer, the BBoS, and blastmasters. This is a nightmare for any DA player.

In regards to our codex to the overall, however, we are a bit lacking, with odd and high costed units, lack of real flyer defense, no drop pods or easy DSing. We are thus in the odd meta position where all armies arn't on par with 6th balance (both under and over in comparison) which consequently leaves as a bit of a middle child at the moment. I believe, however, that as more codexes are updated for 6th I think CSMs hand will strengthen as 6th balance is brought into focus.

As to the codex comparison, I think CSMs are actually quite ahead in a one to one battle with the new DAs mainly because we have 2 strengths; alot of AP2 and alot of AP3 ignoring cover. AP2 is plentiful in the codex with chosen able to take 5(!) plasmaguns, plague marine and vanilla able to take 2 per squad, and oblits and forgefiends have plasma templates, and of course we have the ever useful axe of blind fury which gives out AP2 like the antidote is in it. Then we also ignore a lot of cover with AP3 with the bale flamer, the BBoS, and blastmasters. This is a nightmare for any DA player.

You still have to get those weapons in position to do their job. Other than the 'Drake, good luck doing that with the codex we currently have. Enjoy watching the RW just ride circles around your overly expensive chosen while staying *just* out of range, or having DW pop in and just murder your Demon engines. No, we do not have an advantage in this area over the DA. We DO have some good weapons. Kelly just completely forgot to give us any kind of solid, reliable delivery system for most of them ...

I think CSMs hand will strengthen as 6th balance is brought into focus.

You are the first and ONLY person I've heard say that. Curious as to why you think it. While the 'Crons and DA were CLEARLY written with 6th ed rules/mechanics in mind and even with the DA codex having an apparent eye towards balance (although I still think it's going to be top 3 or 4 when the 6th ed dust settles), the Chaos codex was NOT. This Chaos codex would have been right at home in 4th ed and many of the new units feel like hold-outs from that outdated rule set (how amazing would Warp Talons have been in almost ANY other edition - for example ...). The only spot where the Chaos book really takes the new rules into account it actually penalizes its own players. So I'm wondering where the idea is coming from that a book that is already on the weak side (against both the only other current codex as well as many of the out-dated ones) will somehow become MORE powerful?

I think CSMs hand will strengthen as 6th balance is brought into focus.

You are the first and ONLY person I've heard say that. Curious as to why you think it. While the 'Crons and DA were CLEARLY written with 6th ed rules/mechanics in mind and even with the DA codex having an apparent eye towards balance (although I still think it's going to be top 3 or 4 when the 6th ed dust settles), the Chaos codex was NOT. This Chaos codex would have been right at home in 4th ed and many of the new units feel like hold-outs from that outdated rule set (how amazing would Warp Talons have been in almost ANY other edition - for example ...). The only spot where the Chaos book really takes the new rules into account it actually penalizes its own players. So I'm wondering where the idea is coming from that a book that is already on the weak side (against both the only other current codex as well as many of the out-dated ones) will somehow become MORE powerful?

It's a matter of meta balance. You have the following codexes:

4th edition:
Eldar
Tau
BT

5th:
Daemons
SMs
BAs
SWs
IG
DE
Necrons
Grey Knights

6th:
CSM
DA

In the meta CSMs obviously sit above the 4th edition codexes, and even above several of the 5th editions. Several of the 5th editions, Necrons, GKs, and IG are still the top meta. As 6th continues into its lifespan, and codexes are updated to match the edition they balanced not against previous or next edition codexes but current ones. Thus, as time goes on CSMs will be more competative as the meta balances more towards its style, which it established by the nature of being the first true 6th codex.

Here's an easy example, flyers. The vendetta is one of the most loathed units because it was balanced, and thus priced, for 5th where there were no flyers. Take that in comparison to the DA nephilim fighter which is balanced to the 6th meta prices. For CSMs, the helldrake is balanced in price for 6th, but wouldn't be balanced for 5th. It is balanced against the Nephilim in this example as a high costed flyer. Thus, as more codexes are updated, their flyers to will be updated comparable. This strengthens the CSM codex as more units are brought in line with its meta design.

Now I want to make it clear I'm not arguing it's the best codex, it's not, and there are plenty of WTF units and prices. But my argument is that it doesn't matter in a certain sense since becuase as more 6th edition codexes are realeased they will bolster the CSM by changing to its meta which it established.

In the meta CSMs obviously sit above the 4th edition codexes, and even above several of the 5th editions. Several of the 5th editions, Necrons, GKs, and IG are still the top meta. As 6th continues into its lifespan, and codexes are updated to match the edition they balanced not against previous or next edition codexes but current ones. Thus, as time goes on CSMs will be more competative as the meta balances more towards its style, which it established by the nature of being the first true 6th codex.

Here's an easy example, flyers. The vendetta is one of the most loathed units because it was balanced, and thus priced, for 5th where there were no flyers. Take that in comparison to the DA nephilim fighter which is balanced to the 6th meta prices. For CSMs, the helldrake is balanced in price for 6th, but wouldn't be balanced for 5th. It is balanced against the Nephilim in this example as a high costed flyer. Thus, as more codexes are updated, their flyers to will be updated comparable. This strengthens the CSM codex as more units are brought in line with its meta design.

Now I want to make it clear I'm not arguing it's the best codex, it's not, and there are plenty of WTF units and prices. But my argument is that it doesn't matter in a certain sense since becuase as more 6th edition codexes are realeased they will bolster the CSM by changing to its meta which it established.

All solid reasoning with well supported arguments. I take my hat off to you sir! [insert image of smartly dressed bowing Ork here]

I think you're right in that once the new edition pricing catches up to things like the Storm Raven, many of the current Hi-end codexes may not be so hi-end. That being said, the flaw with the Chaos codex will NOT be helped by that. The way the book is written, it becomes difficult to make a "complete" list. Like I said before, we FINALLY got our dreadnaughts fixed so they don't kill their own people and then .... STILL no way to get them to battle without walking them. Chaos is suppose to be full of tough, "assaulty" troops. How are YOU getting your berzerkers into battle? Hint, there's only two answers and they both suck. There is such a huge lack of cohesiveness and internal balance to the book that I think will ultimately drag the book down. On the other hand, ask a DA (or even a C:SM) player how they're getting THEIR assault units into battle and you will get a plethora of different possible answers. I'm using assault units as the primary example, but it's not the only one. Really, it's tough to get an army from this codex to work with itself while being more than a one trick pony. Especially at less than 2000pts. Not so with the DA codex. My money is on the Chaos book being one of the worst at the end of 6th due almost solely to a lack of proper force multipliers and unit cohesion.

EDIT:

I also still think the fact that Phil Kelley seemed to be writing this book with a copy of the 4th ed BRB in front of him (instead of, you know, the CURRENT rules) is going to bite Chaos in the arse ...

 buddha wrote:


Here's an easy example, flyers. The vendetta is one of the most loathed units because it was balanced, and thus priced, for 5th where there were no flyers. Take that in comparison to the DA nephilim fighter which is balanced to the 6th meta prices. For CSMs, the helldrake is balanced in price for 6th, but wouldn't be balanced for 5th. It is balanced against the Nephilim in this example as a high costed flyer. Thus, as more codexes are updated, their flyers to will be updated comparable. This strengthens the CSM codex as more units are brought in line with its meta design.

Now I want to make it clear I'm not arguing it's the best codex, it's not, and there are plenty of WTF units and prices. But my argument is that it doesn't matter in a certain sense since becuase as more 6th edition codexes are realeased they will bolster the CSM by changing to its meta which it established.

A lot of good points here, but time is a -big- factor here. "Buy our stuff; that army you like just may be viable in 6 years once we work out the kinks on the stuff we just released!" is not the most attractive of sales pitches. All things considered, I'd rather have options against IG combined Steel wave, Daemon flying circus and Necron Airforce before my unborn kids are changing teeth.

This wouldn't be an issue if the company revised its rules/costs to keep things on a moderately even keel, but it's not their policy and that is that. When they _do_ change stuff, it's often for weird issues further stomp on the underdog: Nerfing Warptime into bunk in the last days of 5th, banning Eldar Farseers from using psyker powers from vehicles (trying to stop the onslaught of Eldar armies owning tournaments worldwide, I figure), etc.

Tycho wrote:
On the other hand, ask a DA (or even a C:SM) player how they're getting THEIR assault units into battle and you will get a plethora of different possible answers.

How so? The only option available to DA/SM that isn't available to CSM is drop pods, which aren't that great because you can't assault on the turn you arrive, thus probably dying before you actually get to assault.

Or well, there's the loyalist LR variants, but they have the exact same problem the regular LR has - very high cost for what they bring to the table. That's why I can't basically play my BT as a CC army either, getting them into battle before they're whittled down into nothing is a pain the arse. Righteous Zeal might help close the gap faster if footslogging compared to other chapters - but it might also just as well screw you over entirely.

In other words, just about all power armored armies lack effective and efficient methods of delivery for CC units. I'll make a possible exception for BA and GK as they have the Stormraven, but then if you transport troops in it and the opponent has some Skyfire, you're risking a very high points loss when it comes crashing down with its contents. And when you go to hover mode to actually unload the troops you become an easy target for that turn.

EDIT: Oh, and SM do have LS Storm, but getting a single squad of scouts into CC isn't going to achieve much.

 buddha wrote:

Here's an easy example, flyers. The vendetta is one of the most loathed units because it was balanced, and thus priced, for 5th where there were no flyers. Take that in comparison to the DA nephilim fighter which is balanced to the 6th meta prices. For CSMs, the helldrake is balanced in price for 6th, but wouldn't be balanced for 5th. It is balanced against the Nephilim in this example as a high costed flyer. Thus, as more codexes are updated, their flyers to will be updated comparable. This strengthens the CSM codex as more units are brought in line with its meta design..

The Dark Angel players drowned their sorrow into something similar after the previous DA codex came out .

How so? The only option available to DA/SM that isn't available to CSM is drop pods, which aren't that great because you can't assault on the turn you arrive, thus probably dying before you actually get to assault.

Yes, however it offers your dreadnoughts and troops the ability to have safe landings in the backfield, and thus you have a better chance at a turn 3 assault, not to mention the vast amount of homing beacons for deepstrikers with the ravenwing and you can have some incredible deepstrikes.

So either you get close with drop pods, or your stuck in a rhino for at best a turn 3/4 assault, or your footslogging. The drop pod is still the safest of those options.

How so?

lol You ask that and then detail three or four other ways Chaos does NOT have. In addition the the LR variants, drop pods, homing beacons, the LS Storm and jumping from Storm Ravens (I realize this is BA only), there are also jump packs. Standard marine chapters can actually attach jump packs to regular old assault marines and are NOT stuck with Warp Talons. You can say "But drop pods aren't all that great" all you want. They are MUCH better than not having any at all.

In addition to everything ZebioLizard2 mentions, drop pods would also allow Chaos dreads to be something OTHER than mobile cover/bullet magnets for other troops. That's one of the bigger issues that seems to be emerging with the Chaos book. Everything needs to be babysat by something else ...

Giving CSM an assault transport cheaper than the Land Raider would, in my opinion, fix most of the awkwardness with the codex. You'd think one of Chaos guys would have gotten the bright idea and lopped the top off of a rhino or something and used it as a nice open-topped transport at some point in the last 10,000 years. Something like an Ork Trukk would allow CSM to get their berserkers (and everything else that wants to be in CC) into close combat more reliably, and would make the army more flavorful as raiders and renegades. Just that one change would possibly make mono-Khorne armies viable, and give Chaos Space Marines something more to distinguish themselves from the other power armor codices other than more spikes.

Since GW seems to be pushing the fluff rules in one direction (close combat via challenges) and the crunch rules in another (no assaulting out of destroyed transports, no droppods for CSM, no assault transport other than a sub-par Land Raider, which is in itself generally an inefficient assault transport), giving CSM a more efficient assault transport would make many of these contradictions disappear. People enjoy close combat, so why should it be so hard to get into CC efficiently?

Tycho wrote:
Standard marine chapters can actually attach jump packs to regular old assault marines and are NOT stuck with Warp Talons.

If only there were some kind of Jump Infantry that could take marks and 2 special weapons just like every other Assault Marine... We could name them after a word for predatory birds!

Way to miss the point. Completely. Loyalists can put the ju.p packs on REGULAR SCORING marines. Thats what i was getting at. Other wise yes, a completely over-costed highly limited unit like raptors is perfect. Do you have a news letter i could subscribe to?

EDIT:

And that's not even mentioning the fact that Craptors are competing for slots with three of the best units in the codex. Yeah, you're really on to something there ...

When the chaos codex dropped I was very disappointed. I didn't want it to be a cheese machine, I was happy with it to be mid tier if it was interesting.

There were so many little things that could have been done to show more thought had gone into it.

e.g. daemon allies don't scatter when DSing next to a unit with their icon, or add plus 1 to their reserve rolls when summoned by units with the favoured number of models. Someone above made a nice suggestion about CSM firing into combats with cultists. Stuff like that.

Everyone at my gaming club was like 'Oh no, this is a good thing. This is GW finally taking note and making the game balanced, you won't see any more grey knight style codices, no sir!', but as I prophesied, the new DA codex is another Imperial face-melter. Tacticals on a par cost wise with the CSM (remember everyone going mad about how cheap they were when the codex was released?), deathwing knights, banners, plasma everywhere, and more importantly to my mind, forces that play fluffily and interestingly.

Meanwhile the chaos codex is chock full of rubbish that smacks of being rushed/not having had any thought go in. The dark apostle could have been a lot more, and also has veterans of the long war, the benefits of which are already conferred by one of his other rules, the AOBF requiring MOK to take, which already confers one of the benefits of the axe, warp talons & mutilators, fiends which are really expensive for how fragile they are (who would dump 170+ points into an AV12 model?)

Oh well. There's always next codex...

 somecallmeJack wrote:
(who would dump 170+ points into an AV12 model?)

Oh well. There's always next codex...

Agree with all points. Just saying that I'll happily pay 170 points for an AV 12 model...if it flies and has good weapons!

Tycho wrote:
Way to miss the point. Completely. Loyalists can put the ju.p packs on REGULAR SCORING marines. Thats what i was getting at. Other wise yes, a completely over-costed highly limited unit like raptors is perfect. Do you have a news letter i could subscribe to?

It's almost as if everyone who isn't Blood Angels have the same problems that Chaos do, except Chaos gets to take meltaguns and marks whereas every other Assault Marine (except Interceptors who cost an arm and a leg) are rubbish beyond belief. Cherry-picking one thing out of one Codex and applying it to multiple Codices is intellectually dishonest at best and outright lying at worst.

Also, if scoring was what you were talking about you could have mentioned it instead of excepting everyone to understand that that was what your post was about without you saying anything about it.

It's almost as if everyone who isn't Blood Angels have the same problems that Chaos do, except Chaos gets to take meltaguns and marks whereas every other Assault Marine (except Interceptors who cost an arm and a leg) are rubbish beyond belief. Cherry-picking one thing out of one Codex and applying it to multiple Codices is intellectually dishonest at best and outright lying at worst.

Also, if scoring was what you were talking about you could have mentioned it instead of excepting everyone to understand that that was what your post was about without you saying anything about it.

Actually, if you go back and reread my posts you will see that:

A. I did NOT just cherry pick one unit. I mentioned multiple different types. The jump units got cherry picked BY YOU.
B. The first time I brought up the jump troops I specifically mentioned attaching them to regular Marines. Apologies for just implying that meant scoring.

Tycho wrote:

Actually, if you go back and reread my posts you will see that:

A. I did NOT just cherry pick one unit. I mentioned multiple different types. The jump units got cherry picked BY YOU.
B. The first time I brought up the jump troops I specifically mentioned attaching them to regular Marines. Apologies for just implying that meant scoring.

Tycho wrote:

How so?

lol You ask that and then detail three or four other ways Chaos does NOT have. In addition the the LR variants, drop pods, homing beacons, the LS Storm and jumping from Storm Ravens (I realize this is BA only), there are also jump packs. Standard marine chapters can actually attach jump packs to regular old assault marines and are NOT stuck with Warp Talons. You can say "But drop pods aren't all that great" all you want. They are MUCH better than not having any at all.

Doesn't mention scoring or attaching BA Assault Marines to anything. The "stuck with Warp Talons" bit implies that you didn't even consider that Raptors existed.

If you were referring to scoring, you'd still be cherry-picking, because there's only one Codex that gets to take them as troops, and that's BA. Everyone else is stuck in the same position as Chaos with Assault Marines, except Chaos can take 2 meltaguns and marks, whereas Assault Marines from other Codices are rubbish. Seriously, you get the second best Assault Marines in the game and you still complain because you're not as good as the guys whose entire modus operandi is built around Assault Marines.

Tycho wrote:Actually, if you go back and reread my posts you will see that:
A. I did NOT just cherry pick one unit. I mentioned multiple different types. The jump units got cherry picked BY YOU ( refers to AlmightyWalrus)

This is pretty interesting, considering this exact line:

Tycho wrote:Way to miss the point. Completely. Loyalists can put the ju.p packs on REGULAR SCORING marines. Thats what i was getting at.

Note that only BA can put Jump Packs on regular scoring marines. Making claim that "Loyalists can do it" is overly broad and implies that all loyalists or at least C:SM can do it, which is borderline dishonest.

Tycho wrote:B. The first time I brought up the jump troops I specifically mentioned attaching them to regular Marines. Apologies for just implying that meant scoring.

We can see your posts. It's pretty bad idea to try "explaining" them like this, when I can just quote them right here, showing exactly what you wrote. No, the underlined line speaks for itself,.

Well apparently Phil Kelly can make mistakes too.