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 AtoMaki wrote:
^^Well, you can answer to these threats with "I'll bring plasma and massed anti-infantry and I'll take them out for good!". I must admit, so far, this is the only answer I got for the new DA codex. But since this game is not a chess, sooner or later, you will have the "What if something happens with my plasma and massed anti-infantry?" question and this is where the difference I mentioned earlier kicks in: against a simple codex like the CSM you can have an answer without actually facing the battlefield situation. But against DA, anything could happen, depending on the army of your opponent what could have a wide variety of various annoying things (mentioned above). So you will have to make the call right there and right now. You can say that your opponent will have the element of surprise.

That's fine and all, I will love seeing what the Dark Angels players do to try to counter my Chaos Army and I'll have fun playing against. However, the OP just has a lot of whining and crying in it and to be honest was a waste of my time. That's fine if he wants to cry and cry about both codexes, that's what the internet is for nowadays anyway. It would have been refreshing reading a well written post on the CSM v DA codexes without all the whining.

 deffskulla wrote:
However, the OP just has a lot of whining and crying in it and to be honest was a waste of my time.

Sad thing is, that he is right. Over here, we had 5 CSM players originally (with me). Now, we have 2 (me and another guy). Everyone else hopped to - guess what? - DA... Because it is much more cool than their 'mehish' and 'single configuration win' CSM codex.

Ok, honestly, this is getting ridiculous.. Just because an Army has one available competitive build, does not mean it cannot compete in high levels of play. I don't know if I'm failing to explain it properly, or if if you are not understanding it. I'm going to try one more time.

Actually, I think we just compeltely miss each other's point . I say that the DA has better chances than the CSM, because it has much more variety. I think your counter-point to this was "you build your lists with variety in mind anyways". To that, I said that it is cool, but lists aren't everything, because you have to pre-plan and against DA, it is like pre-planning against 4-5 different codicies. Aaaand... I guess you said againts this that... "Screw planning, nids are still cool!"? Okay, I feel like this discussion is going nowhere .

 Sasori wrote:

Another thing to keep in mind, is while Champion of Chaos is pretty bad, DA have to upgrade to get a Veteran SGT, while Chaos squads come with them standard.

Not sure why people always seem to think that the upgrade cost is bad? If you add up the costs, you'll realize that the squad leaders of other codices don't come for free. A Chaos Marine costs 13 points. 5 would cost 65. But you pay 75 for the squad... because there's a Champion! Similarly for C:SM, a marine costs 16, 5 would be 80, but you pay 90 because of the Sergeant. As such DA have the option whether or not to pay that extra 10, which is only a good thing for them.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
A nice, cheap assault vehicle would've done then, and those special spikey upgrades aren't honestly worth it at all, most of them are either crap or overpriced. You want a really good LR? You want a crusader, not the Godhammer variant, especially not one that can't even split fire one of its lascannons.

A nice, cheap assault vehicle would indeed be nice for any and all SM armies, Chaos included. As for a good LR? I just can't force myself to like the LRC's in-game performance despite being a Templar player, because it simply lacks firepower, making it nothing but a fat-butt transport. At least the Godhammer can do some damage against even heavy armor. The LRC can only really hurt weaker targets. And then there's the Redeemer, which can do very nasty things if it reaches its target and unleashes those Flamestorms. So even with the carrying capacity decrease, I'd probably run a Redeemer of a LRC for transporting almost always, if only my primary Codex would allow for it. And as for Godhammer, silly me I bought the Crusader/Redeemer instead of Godhammer + C/R sprue, and then ended up with a second LRC/R from the Megaforce One of each would've been nice.

First, I think your analysis was good. It was well thought out and you explained what codex is better for a power standpoint.
There are a few small things I disagree with, like I think CSM has a better fast attack as spawn, bikes, and helldrakes are all top notch.

I think the 'feel' of the armies are very different. That's something that I don't think you hit on.
CSM and DA playstyles are akin to Ryu and Sagat. (if that does not out-date some of the younger kids here). While they have some of the same tools, like rhinos, predators, and land raiders, they both have very different feels.

CSM has a lot more large monsters. You can bring maulerfiends and daemon princes. You can bring monsters in the form of chaos spawn. Its characters are extremely good in assault which is fitting for CSM. You can bring really cheap worshipers of chaos in the form of cultists.

DA brings much tougher overall units. They have great terminators. Not on the level of paladins, but very solid. They have bike options. They don't really have any super monsters like a BA furioso dread. Instead DA utilizes more synergy than other marine codex'es.

Their both cool, and both have excellent 'feels' to the playstyle yet they are vastly different in how they play on the board. Much like Ryu and Sagat, if you know one, you can pick up the other, but you will be far from a master.

I'd just like to point out, anyone who thinks they can only win with CSM with one list configuration is dumb. The Heldrake is not an auto-take, you can still win with Thousand Sons, and Mutilators aren't entirely garbage.

 McNinja wrote:
I'd just like to point out, anyone who thinks they can only win with CSM with one list configuration is dumb.

Sure. You can win with a Tau army containing only Fire Warriors and Stealth Suits (led by Shadowsun) too. It just needs a little cooperation from your opponent's side. You can win with Thousand Sons, I won't say that you can't, but you will have some hard time with it, especially if your opponent decides to bring a WAAC list.

 McNinja wrote:
I'd just like to point out, anyone who thinks they can only win with CSM with one list configuration is dumb. The Heldrake is not an auto-take, you can still win with Thousand Sons, and Mutilators aren't entirely garbage.

You can win with mandrakes, it is just playing the game on hard mode.
Tsons are pretty bad and mutilators are garbage.

the codex has a lot of stuff in it but a lot of it just feels rushed and poorly thought out.

The Heldrake is an auto-take, and Mutilators are entirely garbage.

Fixed that for you.

 McNinja wrote:
I'd just like to point out, anyone who thinks they can only win with CSM with one list configuration is dumb. The Heldrake is not an auto-take, you can still win with Thousand Sons, and Mutilators aren't entirely garbage.

If you actually think you can win with Thousand Sons against even a slightly competitive army than ultimately you're the one who is dumb. "Oh but use them right!" Or how about don't take one of the worst units in the game. "But they have a 4+ invul!". Doesn't matter to lasguns or bolters. "B-but they have AP 3?" They cost 24 points per model, I hope that they have something that doesn't suck completely.

Mutilators aren't entirely garbage but they're pretty damn close.

Listen, in magical Christmas land, I totally agree with you. Also in magical Christmas land my Warp Talons will always blind their opponent and my opponents will have all of their stuff out of cover so that I don't strike at I1 because I lack grenades.

Basically all I get from this thread is that Chaos is "Codex: Hurrr buy our new overpriced crappy looking monsters".

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Basically all I get from this thread is that Chaos is "Codex: Hurrr buy our new overpriced crappy looking monsters".

Forge- and Maulerfiends are Ahriman's Cat; simultaneously bad and good.

 labmouse42 wrote:
First, I think your analysis was good. It was well thought out and you explained what codex is better for a power standpoint.
There are a few small things I disagree with, like I think CSM has a better fast attack as spawn, bikes, and helldrakes are all top notch.

I think the 'feel' of the armies are very different. That's something that I don't think you hit on.
CSM and DA playstyles are akin to Ryu and Sagat. (if that does not out-date some of the younger kids here). While they have some of the same tools, like rhinos, predators, and land raiders, they both have very different feels.

CSM has a lot more large monsters. You can bring maulerfiends and daemon princes. You can bring monsters in the form of chaos spawn. Its characters are extremely good in assault which is fitting for CSM. You can bring really cheap worshipers of chaos in the form of cultists.

DA brings much tougher overall units. They have great terminators. Not on the level of paladins, but very solid. They have bike options. They don't really have any super monsters like a BA furioso dread. Instead DA utilizes more synergy than other marine codex'es.

Their both cool, and both have excellent 'feels' to the playstyle yet they are vastly different in how they play on the board. Much like Ryu and Sagat, if you know one, you can pick up the other, but you will be far from a master.

'Feel' can indeed explain a lot of differences, but I believe it is stretching the point here.

To even be able to talk about an army's 'feel', you have to be able to tell what it is about, and if it is chasing those goals correctly.

Let's take DA, for instance. What are they about? The duality of fast Ravenwing and tough Deathwing, forbidden secrets and artifacts and the determination to never back down. I think we can agree that the rules and book match that rather well.

Now what are CSM about? I honestly cannot tell you. Are they in-your-face assaulters? They lack fast/assault transports of any kind other than the most basic version of the tank all SMs get (a worse version, too), and their main assaulting troop was badly nerfed. Are they about massed dakka? They have no long-range artillery or special tanks or anything with truly scary volume of fire. Are they about churning out monstrous beasts? They have as many MCs as the Grey Knight codex in their list, and GKs can actually put three on the table at once as opposed to two. Are they about the mighty warp-powers of sorcerers? They have no psyker defenses and are hobbled by clunky deity-specific power requirements and substandard lists. Are they about sneaky tactics and sabotage? They have to rely on Warlord Traits to get even minimal Infiltration, and nothing has Stealth or Shrouded, or ways to mess with reserves.

Maulerfiends and Forgefiends are not monsters. They look like monsters, but they are basically specialized dreadnaughts and god down like dreads.

CSM characters are great in assault, but the DA characters are also CC beasts and do more for the rest of the army. Ezekiel may be the best Special Character in the game right now for what he brings to the table, bar none.

 Sephyr wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
First, I think your analysis was good. It was well thought out and you explained what codex is better for a power standpoint.
There are a few small things I disagree with, like I think CSM has a better fast attack as spawn, bikes, and helldrakes are all top notch.

I think the 'feel' of the armies are very different. That's something that I don't think you hit on.
CSM and DA playstyles are akin to Ryu and Sagat. (if that does not out-date some of the younger kids here). While they have some of the same tools, like rhinos, predators, and land raiders, they both have very different feels.

CSM has a lot more large monsters. You can bring maulerfiends and daemon princes. You can bring monsters in the form of chaos spawn. Its characters are extremely good in assault which is fitting for CSM. You can bring really cheap worshipers of chaos in the form of cultists.

DA brings much tougher overall units. They have great terminators. Not on the level of paladins, but very solid. They have bike options. They don't really have any super monsters like a BA furioso dread. Instead DA utilizes more synergy than other marine codex'es.

Their both cool, and both have excellent 'feels' to the playstyle yet they are vastly different in how they play on the board. Much like Ryu and Sagat, if you know one, you can pick up the other, but you will be far from a master.

'Feel' can indeed explain a lot of differences, but I believe it is stretching the point here.

To even be able to talk about an army's 'feel', you have to be able to tell what it is about, and if it is chasing those goals correctly.

Let's take DA, for instance. What are they about? The duality of fast Ravenwing and tough Deathwing, forbidden secrets and artifacts and the determination to never back down. I think we can agree that the rules and book match that rather well.

Now what are CSM about? I honestly cannot tell you. Are they in-your-face assaulters? They lack fast/assault transports of any kind other than the most basic version of the tank all SMs get (a worse version, too), and their main assaulting troop was badly nerfed. Are they about massed dakka? They have no long-range artillery or special tanks or anything with truly scary volume of fire. Are they about churning out monstrous beasts? They have as many MCs as the Grey Knight codex in their list, and GKs can actually put three on the table at once as opposed to two. Are they about the mighty warp-powers of sorcerers? They have no psyker defenses and are hobbled by clunky deity-specific power requirements and substandard lists. Are they about sneaky tactics and sabotage? They have to rely on Warlord Traits to get even minimal Infiltration, and nothing has Stealth or Shrouded, or ways to mess with reserves.

Maulerfiends and Forgefiends are not monsters. They look like monsters, but they are basically specialized dreadnaughts and god down like dreads.

CSM characters are great in assault, but the DA characters are also CC beasts and do more for the rest of the army. Ezekiel may be the best Special Character in the game right now for what he brings to the table, bar none.

CSM are about challenging enemy characters, then hoping you win and getting something nice out of it. Sadly CSM characters arent really all that good at killing enemy characters, unless they are expensive ICs and then if you do win you are rarely going to get anything interesting.

The Champions of Chaos and Chaos Boon table are the greatest failing of the CSM dex. I am reshaping my chaos list because the boons are just too minor, too random, too annoying to keep track of.

The Champions of Chaos and Chaos Boon table are the greatest failing of the CSM dex. I am reshaping my chaos list because the boons are just too minor, too random, too annoying to keep track of.

The funny thing is they expected you to use them it seems, you can even see that possessed champions can get two gifts, at the same cost of a normal marine.

If they had been cheaper, if they had been more selectable, if there had been more to mitigate it..

Sure random is fun at times, but the randomness comes in a manner where you are not BETTER at anyone to get it. You are a champion of chaos, unlike fantasy's chaos, where the champions could quite literally punch out most men, women, and giant lizardfolk with a hand tied behind his back, you are equal to most things.

That's not a champion, that's a mook sacrificing himself in a foolish way. Yet even the sorcerers and lords fail in that manner, chaos isn't exactly orks when it comes to tactics!

I would like to make note of the allies.

Chaos allied with demons can be crushing to a player.
It gives demons a chance to be bold since you won't get tabled if they get shot badly and if deployed with any sense, can reach a turn 2 assault.

So all that back range shooting is getting stabbed by lots of demons, and my chaos can march up the table with little to no challenge, and oh look, they all love to be in combat, how fun for me.

I by no means claim this "tactic" will table DA, I simply wish to state that chaos do have a multitude of tactics and units to make it work. Well... Ok, all our tactics are "remove faces in combat", but we have lots of ways to do it :p

I think chaos will go unfavoured by the masses as the test codex/bad guys always loose/look at the mono build tourney list, but chaos are a close range nightmare, and even with 2D6 assault range, the benefits of slugging out some combat remains just as strong as it was last edition.
Yeah, shooting got better cause there's more of it, assault and a handy dirge carter can still lead to blood for the blood god,

This thread has given me a good laugh.

40K is still a game of rock paper scissors. Anything the DA can field can be killed by something that will show up in a TAC list of any other faction. And anything that will show up on the other side of the table a TAC DA list will have something that can kill it.

It all depends on how much scissors your bring to a paper fight. And all armies have their fair share of rocks.

The Chaos codex is not weak. It has the guns, it has the melee. It all just depends on what the player brings and how well they choose their targets.

At least the CSMs got a better treatment than Sisters did.

After all, they actually got new units. And an actual physical book.

 Jayden63 wrote:
This thread has given me a good laugh.

40K is still a game of rock paper scissors. Anything the DA can field can be killed by something that will show up in a TAC list of any other faction. And anything that will show up on the other side of the table a TAC DA list will have something that can kill it.

It all depends on how much scissors your bring to a paper fight. And all armies have their fair share of rocks.

The Chaos codex is not weak. It has the guns, it has the melee. It all just depends on what the player brings and how well they choose their targets.

Care to elaborate a bit on that premise?

Take a 1500-point game. Imperial Guard, Command squad with a fleet officer to bork reserves, two vendettas, two LRBTs, a Basilisk, Marbo and then around 800+ more points of troops, blobs and or veteran squads in Chimeras depending on one's taste. It's not even a very competitive list and yet most CSM builds would sweat against it, having their backfield pounded by Artilelry, Marbo and twin-linked lascannons, lacking anti-vehicle fire to deal with the tanks and chimeras and Valks together.

Or let' take some Necrons. Overlord in a Barge with MSS, semp weave and shifter as well as a warscythe. 4 Night Scythes, one big blob of 20 warriors, 3 more units of warriors or immortals in the scythes, a unit of deathmarks to snipe icons and characters, a pack of waraiths with coils and two Anihhilation Barges. Able to win any challenge on the warlord, wear down any heavy armor or 2+ save via sheer volume of fire, more flyers than most lists can deal with, and yet also far from optimal. What is the Chaos plan here?

 Sephyr wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
This thread has given me a good laugh.

40K is still a game of rock paper scissors. Anything the DA can field can be killed by something that will show up in a TAC list of any other faction. And anything that will show up on the other side of the table a TAC DA list will have something that can kill it.

It all depends on how much scissors your bring to a paper fight. And all armies have their fair share of rocks.

The Chaos codex is not weak. It has the guns, it has the melee. It all just depends on what the player brings and how well they choose their targets.

Care to elaborate a bit on that premise?

Take a 1500-point game. Imperial Guard, Command squad with a fleet officer to bork reserves, two vendettas, two LRBTs, a Basilisk, Marbo and then around 800+ more points of troops, blobs and or veteran squads in Chimeras depending on one's taste. It's not even a very competitive list and yet most CSM builds would sweat against it, having their backfield pounded by Artilelry, Marbo and twin-linked lascannons, lacking anti-vehicle fire to deal with the tanks and chimeras and Valks together.

Or let' take some Necrons. Overlord in a Barge with MSS, semp weave and shifter as well as a warscythe. 4 Night Scythes, one big blob of 20 warriors, 3 more units of warriors or immortals in the scythes, a unit of deathmarks to snipe icons and characters, a pack of waraiths with coils and two Anihhilation Barges. Able to win any challenge on the warlord, wear down any heavy armor or 2+ save via sheer volume of fire, more flyers than most lists can deal with, and yet also far from optimal. What is the Chaos plan here?

Tell you what. Why not pick an army that not in the top 5 of the power curve. IG is undercosted in everything that is actually worth taking and Necrons are so special rule heavy where your not even playing the same game half the time.

Take 1500 points of BT, Tau, Sisters, Nids, Eldar, DE, Orks, other Chaos, Daemons, etc. Chaos is not a top 5 army book. Sad, but true and DA might just be creeping up there. But the game is more than DA vs Chaos. Besides, anyone who seriously wants to actually dominate a tournament is still going to take GK, SW, Necrons and throw in some IG allies to hedge their chances. DA wont even be considered in the running.

And thats why I'm finding this thread so funny. Its like people are squabbling about who is the stronger second banana.

My personal Chaos list has I5 lighting claws. 5 AP3 template weapons, 12 guys with AP2 HTH weapons, and a plethora of shooting out to 24". Its a ton of fun and still makes most other armies sweat. Its never been a sure thing, but its never been walked over either.

 Jayden63 wrote:


It all depends on how much scissors your bring to a paper fight. And all armies have their fair share of rocks.

Just felt that that statement allowed me to roll out the big guns.

Though to be fair, I expect some DW builds to own chaos badly. Guided DS in the right turn to mulch Oblits and Havocs, melee weapons that gain extra AP against chaos giving the whole army ork saves in CC, maybe a few Lascannon devs in the back twinlinked by Divination to crack transports, pound Daemon engines and drop Helldrakes that don't focus them instantly.

So, maybe it will come to pass that DW owns the chaos codex.

But do you know how badly 30 single wound terminators do against 140 - 160 Orks? I've found that ranking in tournaments greatly depend on the luck of the favorable match up.

And there are enough ork players that show up to play in tourniments where winning or loosing isn't all important, but they can play the massive spoiler card for someone elses victory ambition.

 Jayden63 wrote:
So, maybe it will come to pass that DW owns the chaos codex.

But do you know how badly 30 single wound terminators do against 140 - 160 Orks? I've found that ranking in tournaments greatly depend on the luck of the favorable match up.

And there are enough ork players that show up to play in tourniments where winning or loosing isn't all important, but they can play the massive spoiler card for someone elses victory ambition.

>Implying that Horde Orks actually show up in tournaments


Newsflash, they really don't. They take too long to set up/take down.

Also

The Chaos codex is not weak. It has the guns, it has the melee. It all just depends on what the player brings and how well they choose their targets.

Durrr Eldar have guns, Eldar have melee. It all just depends on what the player brings and how well they choose their targets.

 Sephyr wrote:
Take a 1500-point game. Imperial Guard, Command squad with a fleet officer to bork reserves, two vendettas, two LRBTs, a Basilisk, Marbo and then around 800+ more points of troops, blobs and or veteran squads in Chimeras depending on one's taste. It's not even a very competitive list and yet most CSM builds would sweat against it, having their backfield pounded by Artilelry, Marbo and twin-linked lascannons, lacking anti-vehicle fire to deal with the tanks and chimeras and Valks together.

Start the game in rhinos behind an AGL. Move up 18" on turn one. PG/MG the sides of the chimeras. Use the helldrakes to toast the vets inside. Vector strike chimeras/basalisk. Stuff krak gernades up the pipes of LRBTs. Endure the fire from dual vendettas -- their shots only have a 41.6% of killing a PM per shot -- less if there is cover.

I actually would feel pretty confident about that matchup.
Now if you want to bitch about how there are only 2 effective CSM builds, I would agree with you. You got either Nurgle PMs or Noise Marines.
Saying that they can't complete with a moderately effective build is another story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
>Implying that Horde Orks actually show up in tournaments


Newsflash, they really don't. They take too long to set up/take down.

That's funny. I'm carpooling with a guy to templecon who plays hoard orks on a normal basis. He uses large movement trays for his army, and has gotten very good at manuerving them.

It can be done, but takes practice.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
>Implying that Horde Orks actually show up in tournaments
Newsflash, they really don't. They take too long to set up/take down.

Yes, Horde Orks do show up in tournaments

 labmouse42 wrote:
Start the game in rhinos behind an AGL. Move up 18" on turn one. PG/MG the sides of the chimeras. Use the helldrakes to toast the vets inside. Vector strike chimeras/basalisk. Stuff krak gernades up the pipes of LRBTs. Endure the fire from dual vendettas -- their shots only have a 41.6% of killing a PM per shot -- less if there is cover.

I actually would feel pretty confident about that matchup.
Now if you want to bitch about how there are only 2 effective CSM builds, I would agree with you. You got either Nurgle PMs or Noise Marines.
Saying that they can't complete with a moderately effective build is another story.

Not saying it can't happen, but you're assuming an awful lot.

1-None of your rhinos getting stuck on your own ADL as you race forward.
2- Enemy leaving Chimera sides exposed instead of blocking them with the Russes.
3-Helldrakes arriving on turn 2 despite Fleet commander delaying them to a 4+ (possibly more depending on his Warlord trait), and surviving more than 1 turn after Vendettas come into play.
4-No ADL on the other side where IG vehicles, who have much longer ranges on their guns, can stay and mow down your stuff as it advances.
5-No cheap infantry guarding the tanks from assault
6-A poorly placed Basilisk that can be Vectored in turn 1; placed decently back, you would only reach it in your movement path if you fly right off the board!

 Sephyr wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Start the game in rhinos behind an AGL. Move up 18" on turn one. PG/MG the sides of the chimeras. Use the helldrakes to toast the vets inside. Vector strike chimeras/basalisk. Stuff krak gernades up the pipes of LRBTs. Endure the fire from dual vendettas -- their shots only have a 41.6% of killing a PM per shot -- less if there is cover.

I actually would feel pretty confident about that matchup.
Now if you want to bitch about how there are only 2 effective CSM builds, I would agree with you. You got either Nurgle PMs or Noise Marines.
Saying that they can't complete with a moderately effective build is another story.

Not saying it can't happen, but you're assuming an awful lot.

1-None of your rhinos getting stuck on your own ADL as you race forward.
2- Enemy leaving Chimera sides exposed instead of blocking them with the Russes.
3-Helldrakes arriving on turn 2 despite Fleet commander delaying them to a 4+ (possibly more depending on his Warlord trait), and surviving more than 1 turn after Vendettas come into play.
4-No ADL on the other side where IG vehicles, who have much longer ranges on their guns, can stay and mow down your stuff as it advances.
5-No cheap infantry guarding the tanks from assault
6-A poorly placed Basilisk that can be Vectored in turn 1; placed decently back, you would only reach it in your movement path if you fly right off the board!

I'd go noise heavy.

mos Lord
sorcerer
x6 min noise marines and sonics with BM
x2 havoks with autocannons
defiler
with the defiler and havoks perched on a skyshield platform.

Thats a whole bunch of fearless objective holders that put down impressive fire power that ignores cover.

 Sephyr wrote:
1-None of your rhinos getting stuck on your own ADL as you race forward.
2- Enemy leaving Chimera sides exposed instead of blocking them with the Russes.
3-Helldrakes arriving on turn 2 despite Fleet commander delaying them to a 4+ (possibly more depending on his Warlord trait), and surviving more than 1 turn after Vendettas come into play.
4-No ADL on the other side where IG vehicles, who have much longer ranges on their guns, can stay and mow down your stuff as it advances.
5-No cheap infantry guarding the tanks from assault
6-A poorly placed Basilisk that can be Vectored in turn 1; placed decently back, you would only reach it in your movement path if you fly right off the board!

1-Dozer blades lower the chances to 1/36 of getting stuck. That's a rational amount
2 - To block that shooting you would need to literally push the russ right next to the Chimera. Go ahead, that makes it easier to multi assault with gernades.
3- Thats why I bring a comm relay in every game I play now a days. A comm relay gives a 75% of getting each drake even with master of the fleet. If your bringing more than 1 reserve unit, you should always bring one.
4- An ADL on the other side also means you can assault any unit within 2" of the ADL by assaulting the ADL itself. That makes it easier to stuff krak grenades down tail pipes.
5-More cheap bodies to assault, preventing me from getting shot at. Ill take that.
6- You vector strike on turn 3.

Ok, seriously we can keep hypothetically talking about 'what ifs' all day long. It's rather moot because what happens if its an objective mission, kill points, or relic? Talking 'what if' ignores these other elements that make a game happen.
If you live in the New England area, or are attending Adepticon/NOVA and want to meet up and play a game, Ill be happy to play with you. We can test it out. I have both the IG and CSM armies so you don't need to even bring models.

My problem with the CSM codex is your stuck to Nurgle or Slaanesh (maybe unmarked) if you want a decent list. That does not mean the codex is auto-lose. CSM is not auto-win either. Its just a middle-tier codex.
That's were we disagree. You seem to be under the opinion that CSM auto-loses to IG/Necrons.

 labmouse42 wrote:

My problem with the CSM codex is your stuck to Nurgle or Slaanesh (maybe unmarked) if you want a decent list.

Make it just Nurgle and leave it there. Slaanesh got a buff it didn't really needed, but Slaanesh still suffer from fargility and mobility issues what could be problematic when your opponent goes for a secondary objectives victory (quite usual around here!).

 labmouse42 wrote:
That does not mean the codex is auto-lose. CSM is not auto-win either. Its just a middle-tier codex.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Make it just Nurgle and leave it there. Slaanesh got a buff it didn't really needed, but Slaanesh still suffer from fargility and mobility issues what could be problematic when your opponent goes for a secondary objectives victory (quite usual around here!).

Yea, I don't play Slaanesh, I was going off what people say on the forums.

I've been playing Nurgle and its been treating me well. Plague marines are tougher than nails. Last night I had Ghaz and 4 mega nobs slam into a squad of 9 PMs. It took them 3 combat rounds to chew through the PMs, and I managed to throw a wound on every nob in the assault.

My friend who plays that ork army no longer ever consideres 'shootas' as decent weapons vs the PMs. They have about a 1/50 chance of killing the PM. Even marine bolters pretty much bounce off.

The biggest issue I've been finding is 'killyness' and 'range'. PMs are very durable, but only have a 24" range. They also have less bolters/bodies to spam shots. That's were helldrakes have proven useful. Last night I tried allying in with necrons and brought double scythe and double helldrake -- and it worked pretty well.

 Platuan4th wrote:
The "Plasma Speeder" is a Heavy, not Fast Attack.

Other than that mistake, not too shabby a comparison.

Given unlimited points, the plasma speeder is a heavy for the pure RW player...

Think of a full FOC:

Sammiel
RW Cmd Squad
6 x RW Squads
2 or 3 Dark Shrouds
0 or 1 RW Speeder Squadron
3 RW Vengeance Speeders

A Vengeance Speeder is just too expensive to field compared to 2 Typhoons.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I managed to throw a wound on every nob in the assault.

Going a bit off topic with this, but by the 6th edition rules, shouldn't he be allocating wounds to nobs that already have taken one, rather than to another one that hasn't?