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As a chaos Player i really do not want to shoot for a cheesy list that is the only list that will keep you in league with other players, if a bunch of actual die-hard Chaos players wrote at least some of the options you could take as a chaos army, it would make a significant difference. My main concern in the chaos space marine codex is that it has no flavor. There are 9 legions that specialize in something and even those who have been around for ages don't get any fun options for their army? let's say a night lords army had all fast attack as troops, what a difference maker (that would be seriously absurd, but really that's pretty much what goes on in the fluff). Heck iron warriors could take all heavy support 10 points less if fielding a warpsmith, those points add up! Maybe for the world eaters you can consolidate into another assault after you made one already, wow! I am not going to go through all the legions but rules with more flavor would certainly draw more players into playing csm, and keep the existing players playing! I would have bunches of fun playing chaos because of the different play styles you cold choose from! Welp no we are stuck with only one flyer that is over used and 1 over priced assualt vehicle.

A couple of the things i do admire in the codex include the boon table, the artwork, the lore, and did i say the artwork? The vanilla hq units have lots of options though , and now with cultists in the mix, "oh yeah im bring CSM" i would love to be "That Guy" who brings droves of cultists and a cheap lord .

So in summary, my main problem with the CSM codex is lack of options and lack of team effiency.

 wolfmerc wrote:
As a chaos Player i really do not want to shoot for a cheesy list that is the only list that will keep you in league with other players, if a bunch of actual die-hard Chaos players wrote at least some of the options you could take as a chaos army, it would make a significant difference. My main concern in the chaos space marine codex is that it has no flavor. There are 9 legions that specialize in something and even those who have been around for ages don't get any fun options for their army? let's say a night lords army had all fast attack as troops, what a difference maker (that would be seriously absurd, but really that's pretty much what goes on in the fluff). Heck iron warriors could take all heavy support 10 points less if fielding a warpsmith, those points add up! Maybe for the world eaters you can consolidate into another assault after you made one already, wow! I am not going to go through all the legions but rules with more flavor would certainly draw more players into playing csm, and keep the existing players playing! I would have bunches of fun playing chaos because of the different play styles you cold choose from! Welp no we are stuck with only one flyer that is over used and 1 over priced assualt vehicle.

A couple of the things i do admire in the codex include the boon table, the artwork, the lore, and did i say the artwork? The vanilla hq units have lots of options though , and now with cultists in the mix, "oh yeah im bring CSM" i would love to be "That Guy" who brings droves of cultists and a cheap lord .

So in summary, my main problem with the CSM codex is lack of options and lack of team effiency.

1. Fast Attack as Troops would make CSM broken and Cheesy by one/twoish words: HELDRAKE SPAM! I guess airspam isn't restricted to Necrons anymore. That would be the only reason someone would take a Night Lords HQ choice because the Warp Talons are way too expensive for what they do, and 'one des not simply take one Heldrake'. Bikes are decent, but in bikes vs airspam, Airspam 1 bikes 0.

2.Would make KB armies cheesy, especially against the tight formation Nid armies with floods of Gaunts. This would also increase the likelihood of multiple Daemon Princes showing up late in the game from the new boon factories, when the big guns usually tire. Hundreds, if not thousands of points could be wiped off the map in a series of 2-4 consecutive assaults in one assault phase by 2 KB squads. There is a reason they removed that rule in editions past.

3. Your flyer is good for a reason, you need some AA. When facing more diverse armies, they will have flyers, and they will roll over you if you don't have a decent AA squad or a flyer. Also F, R, & S AV 14 w/ Assault vehicle rule will never be cheap, and the basic weapons are decent not to mention special spikey upgrades just for CSM players to make their LR really good.

Your not Getting the point, these are merely just food for thought. You are right that what i suggested is overpowered But what i suggest for rules isn't up for debate. i am merely stating that adding options could provide a greater amount of fun, and i provided examples to give an idea what i was talking about. apparently i didn't stress my main point enough. < _ >

Also F, R, & S AV 14 w/ Assault vehicle rule will never be cheap, and the basic weapons are decent not to mention special spikey upgrades just for CSM players to make their LR really good.

A nice, cheap assault vehicle would've done then, and those special spikey upgrades aren't honestly worth it at all, most of them are either crap or overpriced. You want a really good LR? You want a crusader, not the Godhammer variant, especially not one that can't even split fire one of its lascannons.

Good to see that there's still a chance for balanced codieces policy like in fantasy though.

In all honesty, I am now convinced (after having gone through both 'dexes many times and having seen them on the table top) that the DA codex is actually going to prove to be significantly, head and shoulders, nearly out of this world better than the Chaos codex. I don't think the DA codex has anything that screams OP like Grey Knights or anything like that, but I think it is so internally well balanced (and I don't care what anyone says, the Chaos codex is NOT internally balanced) and efficient that it's going to be a real face ripper when the dust settles.

Tycho wrote:

Good to see that there's still a chance for balanced codieces policy like in fantasy though.

In all honesty, I am now convinced (after having gone through both 'dexes many times and having seen them on the table top) that the DA codex is actually going to prove to be significantly, head and shoulders, nearly out of this world better than the Chaos codex. I don't think the DA codex has anything that screams OP like Grey Knights or anything like that, but I think it is so internally well balanced (and I don't care what anyone says, the Chaos codex is NOT internally balanced) and efficient that it's going to be a real face ripper when the dust settles.

I don't see anything that puts the DA codex that significantly above the Chaos codex in a competitive setting. I see much better internal balance in the DA codex, but the overall power between the two is very close.

The DA codex is defiantly not on GK/SW/IG/Necron levels, which still puts it solidly middle of the pack, with Chaos.

We'll just have to see. Hopefully I'll get to play some DAs with my Chaos, soon, and give a further evaluation after a few games.

 wolfmerc wrote:

Spoiler:

As a chaos Player i really do not want to shoot for a cheesy list that is the only list that will keep you in league with other players, if a bunch of actual die-hard Chaos players wrote at least some of the options you could take as a chaos army, it would make a significant difference. My main concern in the chaos space marine codex is that it has no flavor. There are 9 legions that specialize in something and even those who have been around for ages don't get any fun options for their army? let's say a night lords army had all fast attack as troops, what a difference maker (that would be seriously absurd, but really that's pretty much what goes on in the fluff). Heck iron warriors could take all heavy support 10 points less if fielding a warpsmith, those points add up! Maybe for the world eaters you can consolidate into another assault after you made one already, wow! I am not going to go through all the legions but rules with more flavor would certainly draw more players into playing csm, and keep the existing players playing! I would have bunches of fun playing chaos because of the different play styles you cold choose from! Welp no we are stuck with only one flyer that is over used and 1 over priced assualt vehicle.

A couple of the things i do admire in the codex include the boon table, the artwork, the lore, and did i say the artwork? The vanilla hq units have lots of options though , and now with cultists in the mix, "oh yeah im bring CSM" i would love to be "That Guy" who brings droves of cultists and a cheap lord .

So in summary, my main problem with the CSM codex is lack of options and lack of team effiency.

For Night Lords, instead of all Fast Attack units it could be "A Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack makes all Raptors and Warp Talons into Troop choices."
Iron Warriors could have something like "May take a Warpsmith for each vehicle you have, and they don't count for your HQ allowance after the first."
Instead of consolidating into another combat, Berzerkers could be able to assault out of any vehicle.

Just some ideas.

Edit: Derp, was going to say something else.
Honestly, I haven't played all that many matches against the new Dark Angels. They seem pretty good, but it's not enough for me to stop and say "wow, DA are really powerful now, I feel like I should stop playing Chaos because our book isn't as good."

The DA codex is defiantly not on GK/SW/IG/Necron levels, which still puts it solidly middle of the pack, with Chaos.

I should have clarified better. I agree that it's not got 'Cron flying circus levels of power. But the synergy of the different units allows a cohesiveness in DA lists that does not exist ANYWHERE in the Chaos codex. It's going to allow the better players to stomp people pretty hard but with much less effort than it would take to do the same thing with the Chaos codex. I don't know that the DAs are ever going to be in that God-tier of 'Crons and GK, but this is (IMO), when the 6th ed dust settles, going to be one of the more competitive books. The Chaos codex by comparison, was mediocre at best when released and has already seen some of its inherent advantages (cheap MEQ for example) completely eroded by the DA codex. I just think that while that trend will continue for Chaos, the DA codex has enough internal flexibility to stay tough for some time to come.

EDIT:

I should add that I'm saying this having both seen and played in multiple games with both. The DA just have enough flexibility to tweak a list and have it come out different. Chaos tends to have to build one trick pony lists to get any cohesiveness at all and then when that one trick has been figured out you're not likely to have much fun until you build a new list. Which for Chaos means a COMPLETELY NEW AND DIFFERENT LIST. You can't just swap a unit here and some upgrades there like the DA can and still be competitive. To me it just feels like Chaos was written with beer and pretzels in mind and DA was written with long-term viability and competitiveness in mind.

Tycho wrote:
To me it just feels like Chaos was written with beer and pretzels in mind and DA was written with long-term viability and competitiveness in mind.

Well, isn't that what [the appeal for] Chaos is? Just say screw it and have fun with your life? Forget tactics, scream BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! and charge headlong into a group of enemies?

Well, isn't that what [the appeal for] Chaos is? Just say screw it and have fun with your life? Forget tactics, scream BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! and charge headlong into a group of enemies?

When that's ALL you can do it gets old quick. Even in "for fun" pickup games. My previous posts were approaching it more from a competitive mind set but if you want to approach it from a fun mind set we can do that too.

So I want to play Khorne. nurgle I want Berzerkers rolling forward in ... oh wait. nurgle I only have ONE assault vehicle and it's stupid expensive. nurgle
K, never mind.nurgle I'll go 1ksons. Ah! REALLY expensive and no overwatch!?

NURGLE
Etc etc

Even in fun games (which is what I tend to play more often than anything else), Chaos is already getting stale for me. It lacks the flavor it should have easily had and it has NONE of the flexibility and synergy it needed. So to summarise:

Fun=DA>Chaos
Competition=DA>>>>>>Chaos

Tycho wrote:

The DA codex is defiantly not on GK/SW/IG/Necron levels, which still puts it solidly middle of the pack, with Chaos.

I should have clarified better. I agree that it's not got 'Cron flying circus levels of power. But the synergy of the different units allows a cohesiveness in DA lists that does not exist ANYWHERE in the Chaos codex. It's going to allow the better players to stomp people pretty hard but with much less effort than it would take to do the same thing with the Chaos codex. I don't know that the DAs are ever going to be in that God-tier of 'Crons and GK, but this is (IMO), when the 6th ed dust settles, going to be one of the more competitive books. The Chaos codex by comparison, was mediocre at best when released and has already seen some of its inherent advantages (cheap MEQ for example) completely eroded by the DA codex. I just think that while that trend will continue for Chaos, the DA codex has enough internal flexibility to stay tough for some time to come.

EDIT:

I should add that I'm saying this having both seen and played in multiple games with both. The DA just have enough flexibility to tweak a list and have it come out different. Chaos tends to have to build one trick pony lists to get any cohesiveness at all and then when that one trick has been figured out you're not likely to have much fun until you build a new list. Which for Chaos means a COMPLETELY NEW AND DIFFERENT LIST. You can't just swap a unit here and some upgrades there like the DA can and still be competitive. To me it just feels like Chaos was written with beer and pretzels in mind and DA was written with long-term viability and competitiveness in mind.

While I agree there may not be that much flexibility in competitive Chaos lists, that does not mean the codex itself, isn't competitive. I agree, it will come down to just a few Builds (Nurgle comes to mind the most) I feel these builds do have what it takes to rank highly in tournaments.

It will take time for people to figure out the Ins and outs of the DA codex, but as I said, I don't think there is a huge separation in power between the two. DA does have more options that are competitive than Chaos, but all of the Chaos choices that are good, are very solidly good.

Time on the tabletop will be the biggest factor, after all, people thought the Necron codex was Tyranid level when it came out in 5th. Time proved that one wrong quite quickly.

So, do I think the DA codex was better written than the Chaos Codex? Yes, by a long shot.
Do I think there are more competitive options in the DA codex? Yes, as well.
Overall, do I think the DA codex is overall more competitive than the Chaos Codex? In a sense. It has more options, but as I said earlier, all the strong options in the Chaos Codex are really good. This means there won't be much variation in top chaos builds, but these builds will hang with DA easily, IMO.

Time on the tabletop will be the biggest factor, after all, people thought the Necron codex was Tyranid level when it came out in 5th. Time proved that one wrong quite quickly.

While you and I are drawing different conclusions on where the book is going, I think we are coming from the same place and actually are generally on the same page. Time will definitely tell! Here's hoping I'm wrong and the Chaos book stays mid-tier! lol


EDIT:

This means there won't be much variation in top chaos builds, but these builds will hang with DA easily,

I do have to take small issue with this though. The problem as I see it is that the Chaos builds will hang with the DA ONCE. Then you've blown your proverbial wad as the Chaos player while DA still have plenty more to bring. There's just very little surprise or flexibility with Chaos right now.

 Sasori wrote:

So, do I think the DA codex was better written than the Chaos Codex? Yes, by a long shot.
Do I think there are more competitive options in the DA codex? Yes, as well.
Overall, do I think the DA codex is overall more competitive than the Chaos Codex? In a sense. It has more options, but as I said earlier, all the strong options in the Chaos Codex are really good. This means there won't be much variation in top chaos builds, but these builds will hang with DA easily, IMO.

I think the lack of variety is the thing that will kick the CSM codex's competitiveness well below the DA's. If you go to a toruney, and you think about beating CSM, then you will know what you will see in the CSM army so you can prepare your army accordingly. Against a DA? You can encounter at least four compeltely different types of armies! You can prepare for Deathwing and get a Ravenwing. And what works against Deathwing is mostly 'meh' against Ravenwing. And if you think about it, this is a big thing.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

So, do I think the DA codex was better written than the Chaos Codex? Yes, by a long shot.
Do I think there are more competitive options in the DA codex? Yes, as well.
Overall, do I think the DA codex is overall more competitive than the Chaos Codex? In a sense. It has more options, but as I said earlier, all the strong options in the Chaos Codex are really good. This means there won't be much variation in top chaos builds, but these builds will hang with DA easily, IMO.

I think the lack of variety is the thing that will kick the CSM codex's competitiveness well below the DA's. If you go to a toruney, and you think about beating CSM, then you will know what you will see in the CSM army so you can prepare your army accordingly. Against a DA? You can encounter at least four compeltely different types of armies! You can prepare for Deathwing and get a Ravenwing. And what works against Deathwing is mostly 'meh' against Ravenwing. And if you think about it, this is a big thing.

They can even take a base greenwing and an ironwing, chaos is pretty much nurgle with heldrakes or bust.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

So, do I think the DA codex was better written than the Chaos Codex? Yes, by a long shot.
Do I think there are more competitive options in the DA codex? Yes, as well.
Overall, do I think the DA codex is overall more competitive than the Chaos Codex? In a sense. It has more options, but as I said earlier, all the strong options in the Chaos Codex are really good. This means there won't be much variation in top chaos builds, but these builds will hang with DA easily, IMO.

I think the lack of variety is the thing that will kick the CSM codex's competitiveness well below the DA's. If you go to a toruney, and you think about beating CSM, then you will know what you will see in the CSM army so you can prepare your army accordingly. Against a DA? You can encounter at least four compeltely different types of armies! You can prepare for Deathwing and get a Ravenwing. And what works against Deathwing is mostly 'meh' against Ravenwing. And if you think about it, this is a big thing.

You have an idea of what you will see in every army, and most armies build for this. My TAC are built to handle every type of army, to the best of it's ability, which is my point. Everyone Tailors their TAC to be able to handle, the top competative lists

As for your point about "Knowing what to expect" With the 4th Edition Chaos Codex, you always knew that they were going to be Double Lash, and 9 Oblits. Just because you knew what you would see, did not make a huge impact, because you had to account for every other competitive list out there.

A good example, is that Ravenwing is going to be almost an auto-loss against CSM, because of Heldrakes. Is that going to stop competitive Ravenwing lists from showing up? No. You can't account for every single army list, and every single unit. You have to accept that some lists will just be a hard counter. It's something you have to deal with in a tournament environment. Of course, the goal of a TAC list is to hone it to the point where it has the fewest possible hard counters.

Of course, the goal of a TAC list is to hone it to the point where it has the fewest possible hard counters.

Agreed. And that's the crux of it. The DA have enough viable options to do exactly that. Chaos does not. IMO

 ace101 wrote:

 wolfmerc wrote:
As a chaos Player i really do not want to shoot for a cheesy list that is the only list that will keep you in league with other players, if a bunch of actual die-hard Chaos players wrote at least some of the options you could take as a chaos army, it would make a significant difference. My main concern in the chaos space marine codex is that it has no flavor. There are 9 legions that specialize in something and even those who have been around for ages don't get any fun options for their army? let's say a night lords army had all fast attack as troops, what a difference maker (that would be seriously absurd, but really that's pretty much what goes on in the fluff). Heck iron warriors could take all heavy support 10 points less if fielding a warpsmith, those points add up! Maybe for the world eaters you can consolidate into another assault after you made one already, wow! I am not going to go through all the legions but rules with more flavor would certainly draw more players into playing csm, and keep the existing players playing! I would have bunches of fun playing chaos because of the different play styles you cold choose from! Welp no we are stuck with only one flyer that is over used and 1 over priced assualt vehicle.

A couple of the things i do admire in the codex include the boon table, the artwork, the lore, and did i say the artwork? The vanilla hq units have lots of options though , and now with cultists in the mix, "oh yeah im bring CSM" i would love to be "That Guy" who brings droves of cultists and a cheap lord .

So in summary, my main problem with the CSM codex is lack of options and lack of team effiency.

1. Fast Attack as Troops would make CSM broken and Cheesy by one/twoish words: HELDRAKE SPAM! I guess airspam isn't restricted to Necrons anymore.

Well, Flyers aren't scoring. and if Fast Attack became troops, there'd maybe be a "Non-vehicle Fast Attack options become troops" clause.

Tycho wrote:

Of course, the goal of a TAC list is to hone it to the point where it has the fewest possible hard counters.

Agreed. And that's the crux of it. The DA have enough viable options to do exactly that. Chaos does not. IMO

Will just have to disagree then.

 Sasori wrote:

You have an idea of what you will see in every army, and most armies build for this. My TAC are built to handle every type of army, to the best of it's ability, which is my point. Everyone Tailors their TAC to be able to handle, the top competative lists

Yes, and here goes the real problem. The most powerful CSM build is in fact a weaker version of the top competative builds. It relies on flyers (like Cron Air) and tough long-range units with low numbers (IG does something very similar with LRs) supporting fast assault units (SW). If somebody prepares for a competitive army, then he should be able to take on a CSM army. Against DA? Not so much. Too many variables, so a list tailored to beat competitive builds will actually have to fight a battle without the neccessary abilities to win.

So if someone asks himself the question: "Can I beat CSM?" then the answer will be straithforward - if he can beat flyers, tough ranged units and fast assault units then the answer is yes. But if the question is: "Can I beat DA?" then the answer will be: "Which DA?". And that could bring lots of problems to a TAC list or... the player can simply ignore the DA variety, but in this case, the DA player will start with a situational advantage (what the CSM player will never have).

Tycho wrote:

Of course, the goal of a TAC list is to hone it to the point where it has the fewest possible hard counters.

Agreed. And that's the crux of it. The DA have enough viable options to do exactly that. Chaos does not. IMO

I'd be willing to disagree. Chaos's main problem is the severe lack of 2+ saves, which DA has in spades. Chaos then has to make do with high T/FNP units to survive. Chaos also has quite a few units that can move 12", which adds greatly to their threat. two maulerfiends coming at your Land Raider or Terminator unit isn't a good thing, especially since Maulfiends cost about half as much as a LR or Terminator unit.

Yes, and here goes the real problem. The most powerful CSM build is in fact a weaker version of the top competative builds. It relies on flyers (like Cron Air) and tough long-range units with low numbers (IG does something very similar with LRs) supporting fast assault units (SW). If somebody prepares for a competitive army, then he should be able to take on a CSM army. Against DA? Not so much. Too many variables, so a list tailored to beat competitive builds will actually have to fight a battle without the neccessary abilities to win.

There is nothing in a standard DA list, that will not already be accounted for in a top tournament competitive list.

So if someone asks himself the question: "Can I beat CSM?" then the answer will be straithforward - if he can beat flyers, tough ranged units and fast assault units then the answer is yes. But if the question is: "Can I beat DA?" then the answer will be: "Which DA?". And that could bring lots of problems to a TAC list or... the player can simply ignore the DA variety, but in this case, the DA player will start with a situational advantage (what the CSM player will never have).

Since we keep going in Circles here. Give me some Examples of things in DA lists, that would already not be prepared for in standard TAC tournament lists.

Will just have to disagree then.

Cheers!

So if someone asks himself the question: "Can I beat CSM?" then the answer will be straithforward - if he can beat flyers, tough ranged units and fast assault units then the answer is yes. But if the question is: "Can I beat DA?" then the answer will be: "Which DA?". And that could bring lots of problems to a TAC list or... the player can simply ignore the DA variety, but in this case, the DA player will start with a situational advantage (what the CSM player will never have).

Pretty much this.

I'd be willing to disagree. Chaos's main problem is the severe lack of 2+ saves, which DA has in spades. Chaos then has to make do with high T/FNP units to survive. Chaos also has quite a few units that can move 12", which adds greatly to their threat. two maulerfiends coming at your Land Raider or Terminator unit isn't a good thing, especially since Maulfiends cost about half as much as a LR or Terminator unit.

Agreed that the 2+ save issue hurts Chaos (although it's not so high on my personal list of issues with Chaos). On the other hand, think about it, two Maulerfiends coming at a LR.-They are going to struggle to really crunch that Land Raider and combined the two cost more than the landraider to do it. MF are good for mauling troops, and the are good walking shields, but that just further calls out the fact that Chaos has serious troop delivery issues. For example, you can't just deep strike your Hel brute in a DPod so you have to walk it up field behind a shield unit. Actually, now that I think about it, most of the Chaos lists I've seen lately depend on this type of shield tactic in one form or another. Everything needs babysat by something else ...

Tycho wrote:
On the other hand, think about it, two Maulerfiends coming at a LR.-They are going to struggle to really crunch that Land Raider and combined the two cost more than the landraider to do it.

Aren't Maulerfiends S10 AP2 Armourbane? That doesn't exactly struggle with anything.

Aren't Maulerfiends S10 AP2 Armourbane? That doesn't exactly struggle with anything.

lol yes, I forgot about the Amourbane. Got my Fiends mixed up.

 Sasori wrote:

Since we keep going in Circles here. Give me some Examples of things in DA lists, that would already not be prepared for in standard TAC tournament lists.

- Terminators with both good ranged and good melee capabilities (people usually prepare for TH/SS termies, so they bring shooting - but these termies actually shoot back!)
- The Belialbomb (9 DW Knights with Big B appearing out of nowhere in your back lines with pinpoint accuracy is definietly something you couldn't see before, it isn't even stuff like standard DPs raining from the skies, as they at least scatter, and deliver only shooty MEQs)
- Bikers with the bolter banner (fast attack units that don't want to assault you, but pour out insane ammount of dakka instead)
- Shooty rad grenades (I mean, everyone is perpared for melee rad grenades... but these are shooty ones!)
- An army without flyers
- A mixture of bikers and TEQ (both scoring), with nothing else. Like, I dunno if you can do this with any other army (maybe with Orks?)...
- Vehicles (including Land Raiders) with 4+ invu

The Belialbomb (9 DW Knights with Big B appearing out of nowhere in your back lines with pinpoint accuracy is definietly something you couldn't see before, it isn't even stuff like standard DPs raining from the skies, as they at least scatter, and deliver only shooty MEQs)

This one especially nailed me. I was having some moderate success using a Forgefiend gun line until some smart SOB figured this out and ruined my day. lol Haven't found an effective counter to it yet.

- Terminators with both good ranged and good melee capabilities (people usually prepare for TH/SS termies, so they bring shooting - but these termies actually shoot back!)

Ok, for one thing, people tend to come prepared for Termies, with the abundance of plasma and volume of fire weapons that people are taking in lists. If they are prepared for TH/SS, then that means TAC termies are even easier to handle. I actually PREFER Tac Termies, as either it makes zero difference for my volume of fire weapons (2+) or they are significantly easier to kill with my AP 1 and 2 Weapons. (5++ instead of 3++) Yes, they can shoot, and the Plasma cannon is very good, I don't see how TAC lists won't be prepared for this.

- The Belialbomb (9 DW Knights with Big B appearing out of nowhere in your back lines with pinpoint accuracy is definietly something you couldn't see before, it isn't even stuff like standard DPs raining from the skies, as they at least scatter, and deliver only shooty MEQs)

If my opponent wants to drop 1/4th of his Army right in front of me, that can only sit there for a turn against a Meta that is predominately shooty, then be my guest. if a list can't handle this, then it's not a good list. Hell, even proper deployment can mitigate this.

-

Bikers with the bolter banner (fast attack units that don't want to assault you, but pour out insane ammount of dakka instead)

Still only bikes. Still only bolters, with a snipable banner. Lists can handle this.

- Shooty rad grenades (I mean, everyone is perpared for melee rad grenades... but these are shooty ones!)

This is one of the few things, that lists can have trouble preparing for. Shooting Rad Grenades are excellent, and Black Knights are a great unit.

- An army without flyers

Which Hurts the DA far more than it could possibly help. DA lists are going to struggle with flyer heavy lists, as they have very few means to actually counter them, without allying in another army.

- A mixture of bikers and TEQ (both scoring), with nothing else. Like, I dunno if you can do this with any other army (maybe with Orks?)...

How would a standard list not be prepared for this? Everyone is loading up on Anti-troop and plasma weapons now a days.

- Vehicles (including Land Raiders) with 4+ invu

Skimmers have been getting 5+ Jink Saves just for moving, since the beginning of the edition. People are tending to take less Anti-Vehicle, so it's possible Land Raiders for DA will see a resurgence. I don't think it would give any serious Tourney lists pause though.

I'm going to say that I thought this was going to be a good comparison of both books but it didn't take long to realise that it was some crying fan boy book bashing. Good job guy, enjoy your power gaming and "I win armies."

^^Well, you can answer to these threats with "I'll bring plasma and massed anti-infantry and I'll take them out for good!". I must admit, so far, this is the only answer I got for the new DA codex. But since this game is not a chess, sooner or later, you will have the "What if something happens with my plasma and massed anti-infantry?" question and this is where the difference I mentioned earlier kicks in: against a simple codex like the CSM you can have an answer without actually facing the battlefield situation. But against DA, anything could happen, depending on the army of your opponent what could have a wide variety of various annoying things (mentioned above). So you will have to make the call right there and right now. You can say that your opponent will have the element of surprise.

 AtoMaki wrote:
^^Well, you can answer to these threats with "I'll bring plasma and massed anti-infantry and I'll take them out for good!". I must admit, so far, this is the only answer I got for the new DA codex. But since this game is not a chess, sooner or later, you will have the "What if something happens with my plasma and massed anti-infantry?" question and this is where the difference I mentioned earlier kicks in: against a simple codex like the CSM you can have an answer without actually facing the battlefield situation. But against DA, anything could happen, depending on the army of your opponent what could have a wide variety of various annoying things (mentioned above). So you will have to make the call right there and right now. You can say that your opponent will have the element of surprise.

Ok, honestly, this is getting ridiculous.. Just because an Army has one available competitive build, does not mean it cannot compete in high levels of play. I don't know if I'm failing to explain it properly, or if if you are not understanding it. I'm going to try one more time.

I'll give you another example. Tyranids. Tyranids have about one viable tournament build, that pretty much involves two Flyrants+Tervigons/Guants+Doom+Sprinkle your choice of a few other units. Tyranids are doing excellent in tournaments, despite this. You know any Tyranid list will be bringing Double Flyrants, Tervigons, and Gaunts.

No one can say that the Tyranid book is a good book. It doesn't have a lot of competitive options, and most competitive builds consist of the same units. The good options are really good though, and because of this it is placing highly in tournaments. This is the same principle as the CSM codex.