How to beat Farsight Tau Deathstar

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Jancoran**

Red Corsair wrote:
Pony_law wrote:
cryhavok wrote:
Funny thing about rune priests in drop pods:

They do not generate warp charge points until the start a turn on the board as per raw.

That is an awful long time to live against the tau. Have fun with it. My tau continue to laugh at rune priests. If you were running them up in land raiders I would be more worried.

Ingesting, I don't know anyone who plays it this way. I wouldn't expect to get a favorable tourney ruling on it.

Yea because he is actually completely wrong

That is such a wierd thing to say. I definitely wouldn't try that with anyone here. They'd laugh at you if you tried to say they couldn't cast.

**Theorius**

krazykishere wrote:
I wonder how farsight bomb would react to masque deepstriking within 12" of it

dont know what masque does but when he deepstrikes he gets interceted by str 8 ap 2 shos fro riptides and in most peoples lists a ton of missiles from broadsides..

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jancoran wrote:

IM somewhat dumbfounded. You're STILL not understanding. He deployed. He wanted the Riptides dead. Two of them at BS 8 are quite a threat, which is what I field with my Markerlight swarm doing the assist. He's felt their caress before. So he tried to take one out and succeeded (as one would expect). I then mobbed him and killed the Deathstar. This is not complicated. He saw that he was surrounded and there was at least the LIKELIHOOD he could be charged with 1, maybe even two units. He bet that he could kill one (and nearly did) on overwatch and he might WELL win combat against the other. So he took his shot in a bad situation, at what he knew would ream the REST of his army LATER if he did not. It didn't work out for him. His game was effectively over in round 1 even though it took two more turns to confirm it.

And thats what happens sometimes. This is the risk you run. That unit is a ROAD GRADER of a unit so if the enemy doesn't HAVE units like these, could be a rough day at the office. Thats why allies are cool.

Same thing would happen to that same Deathstar if an IG player with a Psyker Battle squad had faced the Deathstar. The Deathstar unit would be done for on round 1 potentially (but hey the vagaries of war are many so you never know...Could deny the witch or something cool like that).

Now if YOURE confident that YOU will never fall prey to this... Don't worry about it. For everyone else interested in POSSIBILITIES... I present to you these two.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

cryhavok wrote:

From the very limited info you gave here is where he failed:
-did not support bomb, wasting the biggest strength of the tau.
-did not move away from close enemies (seriously with jetpacks any play that gets caught in cc by something like kroot deserve the shameful fate awaiting them)
-did not take target locks to kill both the riptide and wipe the kroot off the board
-wasted all available supporting fire on first thing to charge as if an infant coulds see plain as day that a second squad is about to charge as well.

That is just off the top of my head, I'm sure an expert, which I am not, could point out more things he did wrong. Yes it worked for you, so does taking candy from a baby, that does not make it a reliable or even advisable way to try for.

As a self proclaimed non-expert, allow me to explain this:

--"supporting" the bomb happened. His drones were nearby within 6" as were fire warriors. Ergo, they ended the Kroot just about. Markerlights fired first, hit three times, and he stole my cover save from me and then blasted me with his amped up BS. Fire Warriors barely contributed. He did exactly as he ought to, given that he couldn't stop my infiltration. Most of the Kroot died On OVERWATCH. Brutal. Failed the charge. Second unit didn't. That is the point.

--He had to move up to HIT the Riptides. He was confident he could bounce back far enough, which didn't happen. Would have had to have rolled quite well in any event given the Kroot hounds.

--Not enough fire to do that. Riptides at long range, he's only getting his single plasma shots, Drones and some missiless. He succeeded anyways, because: Markerlights. and in case it wasn't obvious to you, you have to announbce your shots at the same time. all members of the unit fire simultaneously. He tried to kill BOTH Riptides and/or pin one and trusted his Overwatch. Just didn't work out in the end.

- All that was AVAILABLE for damaging shots on were Fire Warriors and his Deathstar (and Drones , but no damage).

Now here's the thing: It hardly matters. The strategy is sound and if you see an opportunity to do it, you should. If your army cant do it, you'll need another answer. Critiquing the opponent does ZERO here. He had no crystal ball. Your perfect hindsight is kind of cool though. He wishes he had THAT when he played me.

Lets just agree to disagree, since you want to argue from the point of the match you had but i am trying to make it matter to this thread in regards to strategy/tactics over all.

He made bad choices, does not mean he is a bad player, it happens.

I also dont know his list or you and you keep adding new details in each post you make trying to make your point.

let us just drop it bro!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jancoran wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Pony_law wrote:
cryhavok wrote:
Funny thing about rune priests in drop pods:

They do not generate warp charge points until the start a turn on the board as per raw.

That is an awful long time to live against the tau. Have fun with it. My tau continue to laugh at rune priests. If you were running them up in land raiders I would be more worried.

Ingesting, I don't know anyone who plays it this way. I wouldn't expect to get a favorable tourney ruling on it.

Yea because he is actually completely wrong

That is such a wierd thing to say. I definitely wouldn't try that with anyone here. They'd laugh at you if you tried to say they couldn't cast.

I agree that they can use their psychic powers for sure!

**Jancoran**

This isnt a Batrep. This was a simple example that turned into a nit picking batrep.

Damn gamers. Lol.

**Theorius**

Jancoran wrote:
This isnt a Batrep. This was a simple example that turned into a nit picking batrep.

Damn gamers. Lol.

damn us all!!!!!

**Coyote81**

Seems Kind of weird that the opponent with the farsight bomb had nothing else to shoot at some lousy kroot to protect his bomb unit from double charge next turn. Since you were playing against allies, the cover saves for kroot can be ignored easily.

Then why do you keep ignoring this comment below? If it worked for you, then you got lucky. just say I got lucky and don't preach it as a sound tactic. Who even takes maxed unit of kroot for the most part anyways? If you had it was probably a rare occurrence, and most people (including yourself from other threads) take smaller units that won't be able to pull off this random luck again.

I think MilkmanAi has things squared and correct.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Jancoran wrote:

You're not understanding. You charge with the normal unit, then hit the Farsun with the real threat. Losing the one pays for itself.

I did this tonight actually. I infiltrated two kroot units and then, after he came up and tried to kill the Riptides (He got one), the Kroot both charged after I hit the unit with Pathfinder Rail Ridles+Carbines. He nearly killed all the kroot from one unit and the other unit swarmed him. Swept him. Not easy to do, only won by 2 thanks to the Krootox, but it was enough to break them. I can't say that I would want to have to count on Kroot for THAT heavy lifting every time, but it worked.

If you don't rely on tanks, the Deathstar is LESS scary. But even in this example, it was a squeeker.

Powerful powerful unit, that Deathstar is. Killed two units and did a number on my third but even so, I lost far less points and used far less to get it done. So I felt good about it.
I don't think you can rely on your opponent being brain dead enough to get his Farsight unit within charge range of multiple Kroot (or whatever) units very often. That's just ridiculous. I obviously don't know how your opponent's army is constructed, but in my Tau armies, I've become a bit of a pie plate freak. If I somehow HAD to get my Farsight bomb in that awful position, for whatever reason, you could count on those Kroot units eating some pretty substantial firepower to thin them out, likely to the point of insignificance.

FYI, just running the numbers, you'd kill about 11 drones if you charged with a maxed Kroot unit - 20 Kroot, 3 Krootoxes (oxen?), and 10 hounds - and would then eat roughly 10 wounds in return from the suits alone. I'd call that a reasonably balanced combat despite all the unlikely advantages being in favor of the Kroot. The units also have equal initiative, assuming you had a Kroot hound around somewhere, so even after your opponent failed his Ld 8 check, you still didn't have an amazing shot at sweeping him. Basically, a combo of colossally bad tactics by your opponent and pretty dang good luck by you led to a catastrophic result. Like you said, I'm not sure relying on Kroot - or any other units - to get that job done would be wise.

**Red Corsair**

cryhavok wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Since when does generating charges require you to be in play? It simply states when they generate them and how many otherwise the whole FAQ that states controlling players can choose which order to manifest blessing and have reserves arrive in regards to psychers would be utterly pointless. So yea, your totally wrong, and your opinion on cheese is irrelevant.

I'll stick with the general consensus from every national tournament or do you think it's all been a farce watching players psychic shriek the doom from reserve at every major tournament nationwide?
generating charges is part of the psyker special rules, rules that you can not use the turn you arive from reserves according to the reserves rules in the brb. As to that faq, there are ways of getting blessings without spending warp charg points, for example, eldar warlocks, halequin shadowseers, and the blue scribes all manifest powers without expending warp charges. As to the doom using psychic shriek, no fault of thier own if no one at all realized this, maybe the doom should stick to using spirit leech right out the gate as it isnt a psychic power, also most of the dooms I have played against went biomancy, not telepathy.

Except its not an active trait its passive.It says a unit cannot USE any special abilities the turn it arrives, read the generating warp charges section and you will see it states the player does not do a thing and it happens eery turn automatically, big difference. I don't USE the psycher rule to generate warp charges, it simply happens. According to your own logic a riptide cannot use FNP the turn it deepstrikes, your wrong.

**Moosatronic Warrior**

Theorius wrote:
their is alot special about this deathstar here is a link to my thread on them, and here is the basic pro and con list for you!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/521966.page

Deepstrike (with no scatter If you have farsight be warlord)
JSJ (the jet move could be 3d6 if shadowsun is the warlord i think this is the best choice)
Infilitrate (some debate is being had as to if infiltrate confers to units joined)
Shoot at 8 different targets SHOOT AT 8 TARGETS!!
4+/2+ cover save thanks to shadowsun shroud/stealth
Everything is twin linked
Everything ignores cover
Can get - stubborn, monster hunter, tank hunter (for the unit) the others are the model only so have little use
Has 100% look out sir
Hit and Run at Init 5 (cant be tied up in combat unless you want to!)
Shortest range gun 18" with jsj it can keep at least 24" from most targets
Drones are BS 3 (twin linked, ignore cover, pinning)
Volume of fire unit (40-46 total shots twin linked, ignores cover)
Quality of fire Unit (11-17 ap1/ap2 twin linked ignores cover shots)

Thanks for the run down! I am familiar with most of that already.
I still dont see this unit being that bad. Its no where near the level of nob bikers when they were the new kids on the block.

The nob biker unit could take a huge amount of fire without taking many casualties and, if it did take casualties, it would still roll almost anything it got its hands on. It was also a scoring unit so had to be dealt with.

The Farsight unit will be loosing models right away to any AI fire. (just S.marine stats). And every model lost reduces its firepower. If you can kill 10 space marines worth of gun drones the unit looses its anti-horde guns.

Its a good deathstar for sure, and like all good deathstars it removes most of the strategy from the game and wipes the floor with randoms at your LGS, but its not overpowered IMO.

**cryhavok**

Red Corsair wrote:
cryhavok wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Since when does generating charges require you to be in play? It simply states when they generate them and how many otherwise the whole FAQ that states controlling players can choose which order to manifest blessing and have reserves arrive in regards to psychers would be utterly pointless. So yea, your totally wrong, and your opinion on cheese is irrelevant.

I'll stick with the general consensus from every national tournament or do you think it's all been a farce watching players psychic shriek the doom from reserve at every major tournament nationwide?
generating charges is part of the psyker special rules, rules that you can not use the turn you arive from reserves according to the reserves rules in the brb. As to that faq, there are ways of getting blessings without spending warp charg points, for example, eldar warlocks, halequin shadowseers, and the blue scribes all manifest powers without expending warp charges. As to the doom using psychic shriek, no fault of thier own if no one at all realized this, maybe the doom should stick to using spirit leech right out the gate as it isnt a psychic power, also most of the dooms I have played against went biomancy, not telepathy.

Except its not an active trait its passive.It says a unit cannot USE any special abilities the turn it arrives, read the generating warp charges section and you will see it states the player does not do a thing and it happens eery turn automatically, big difference. I don't USE the psycher rule to generate warp charges, it simply happens. According to your own logic a riptide cannot use FNP the turn it deepstrikes, your wrong.

Okay I re read the generating warp charges section and I will concede your point here. Your example of the riptide is a bit messed up though, the riptide isnt using the ability to get feel no pain, the ethereal is, or a peice of equipment gives it to him continuously. The conection I was making was between the timing of gaining the warpcharge points and the reserve rule about start of turn abilities. I just missed the connection between 'must use' and 'happens automatically without doing anything.' I really don't see the connection to even use the riptide in relation to this at all, unless your aim was no more than giving an example of something obviously wrong even though it has nothing to do with the situation.

**Red Corsair**

cryhavok wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
cryhavok wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Since when does generating charges require you to be in play? It simply states when they generate them and how many otherwise the whole FAQ that states controlling players can choose which order to manifest blessing and have reserves arrive in regards to psychers would be utterly pointless. So yea, your totally wrong, and your opinion on cheese is irrelevant.

I'll stick with the general consensus from every national tournament or do you think it's all been a farce watching players psychic shriek the doom from reserve at every major tournament nationwide?
generating charges is part of the psyker special rules, rules that you can not use the turn you arive from reserves according to the reserves rules in the brb. As to that faq, there are ways of getting blessings without spending warp charg points, for example, eldar warlocks, halequin shadowseers, and the blue scribes all manifest powers without expending warp charges. As to the doom using psychic shriek, no fault of thier own if no one at all realized this, maybe the doom should stick to using spirit leech right out the gate as it isnt a psychic power, also most of the dooms I have played against went biomancy, not telepathy.

Except its not an active trait its passive.It says a unit cannot USE any special abilities the turn it arrives, read the generating warp charges section and you will see it states the player does not do a thing and it happens eery turn automatically, big difference. I don't USE the psycher rule to generate warp charges, it simply happens. According to your own logic a riptide cannot use FNP the turn it deepstrikes, your wrong.
Okay I re read the generating warp charges section and I will concede your point here. Your example of the riptide is a bit messed up though, the riptide isnt using the ability to get feel no pain, the ethereal is, or a peice of equipment gives it to him continuously. The conection I was making was between the timing of gaining the warpcharge points and the reserve rule about start of turn abilities. I just missed the connection between 'must use' and 'happens automatically without doing anything.' I really don't see the connection to even use the riptide in relation to this at all, unless your aim was no more than giving an example of something obviously wrong even though it has nothing to do with the situation.

No my intent on that example was to use a more obvious scenario demonstrating how your reasoning was wrong. It's much more cut and clear why FNP should work but the warp charges essentially fall into the same category.

**Jancoran**

Coyote81 wrote:
Seems Kind of weird that the opponent with the farsight bomb had nothing else to shoot at some lousy kroot to protect his bomb unit from double charge next turn. Since you were playing against allies, the cover saves for kroot can be ignored easily.

Then why do you keep ignoring this comment below? If it worked for you, then you got lucky. just say I got lucky and don't preach it as a sound tactic. Who even takes maxed unit of kroot for the most part anyways? If you had it was probably a rare occurrence, and most people (including yourself from other threads) take smaller units that won't be able to pull off this random luck again.

I think MilkmanAi has things squared and correct.

...This is more proof that you read half a post before responding. He had no kroot to protect his bomb...which you'd know if you read what was said. He had Fire Warriors and I mentioned the problems of wrapping such a large unit. Also, I wasn't playing against allies. The cover save COULD indeed be ignored...and he DID ignore it, using Markerlights.

The central issue that you SEEM...to be missing... is that he did not WANT to be bombed by TWO untra-accurate Riptides on my turn. And he DID think he could handle at least one Kroot charge.

Now here's the problem: You have fixated yourself, for whatever reason, on the fact they WERE Kroot. Irrelevant. The TACTIC is what was being discussed. I just used my EXAMPLE of a success to ILLUSTRATE the ACTUAL point.

This seems to be confusing some people. Perhaps that helps. If your infinte hindsight allows you to have known the perfect thing to do, you might also like to predict how many my Riptides would have killed in subsequent turns had he NOT taken the risk he did? Do you have a HINDSIGHT number on that? Or no?

Exactly.

So focus on the ball. The ball is... Dual charges work. Make sure you use units that are faster. And again... This is just one idea, as of course, you wont all have the luxury of such units in all lists.

**Theorius**

Dual charging is a good suggestion, IF and BIG if you can pull it off.

Additionally the deathstar will be stubborn 10 and have hit and run at init 5 so it will be hard to break and hold down.

**Coyote81**

Dual charge is really hard to pull off against a equally skilled opponent. Just seems like a very unlikely scenario. but ok, I concede that it's possible. but my point was that he seemed to have 0 other unit in the scenario that could help dealing with kroot, seems weird, doesn't take many fire warriors and marker lights to make those kroot useless.

**White Ninja**

Mali wrote:
Considering that a farsight bomb is usually around a 1000 points with drones its 28 models. Said tau player must have at least 28firewarriorson the table. your looking at about 1500 points right there. 2/3 of which is in reserve. just Dakka his little remaining guys to death on turn one and that over costed unit will never see the light of day.

The rule is equal number of units not models. Since he would need two troop choices anyways unless they have two hqs the whole bomb can be kept in reserves.

**Jancoran**

Coyote81 wrote:
Dual charge is really hard to pull off against a equally skilled opponent. Just seems like a very unlikely scenario. but ok, I concede that it's possible. but my point was that he seemed to have 0 other unit in the scenario that could help dealing with kroot, seems weird, doesn't take many fire warriors and marker lights to make those kroot useless.

Im hoping my opponents feel the same.

**Savageconvoy**

I have no idea what that comment was supposed to mean. Are you some how implying that shooting at Kroot with weapons that wound on 2's, out range their guns, and can ignore their cover and armor would some how be falling into a trap? I mean the point was literally that if he had anything else in his army besides the Death Star unit, then he would have been able to do some damage to the Kroot. That's why it doesn't seem like a sound tactic to try and use a dual charge against the unit.

**Theorius**

White Ninja wrote:
Mali wrote:
Considering that a farsight bomb is usually around a 1000 points with drones its 28 models. Said tau player must have at least 28firewarriorson the table. your looking at about 1500 points right there. 2/3 of which is in reserve. just Dakka his little remaining guys to death on turn one and that over costed unit will never see the light of day.
The rule is equal number of units not models. Since he would need two troop choices anyways unless they have two hqs the whole bomb can be kept in reserves.

My 1500 list has this

Farsight shadow sun Death Star -- 19 models
The two characters
body guard with all the fun doodads
6 other body guards -- 5xdouble plasma, 2x double missiles, 1x double fusion

3 units of 10 Kroot with 1 Kroot hound

2 riptides with ion cannon SMS and early warning

The Kroot have three purposes
1. Bubble wrap vs fast assault
2. Infiltrate for objectives
3. Hold backfield objectives

Vs shooty lists i would likely reserve them so they survive longer.

**Red Corsair**

Ouch, 3X10 kroot is a serious hole man. That list throws out some lethal damage I'll give you that but 30 T3 LD7 bodies for 5/6 missions is horrible. Reserving them isn't a great plan as you have no reserve manipulation either. I see bad match ups against guard, necrons horde orks and nids. Really flier heavy and horde lists will own this build. Oh and a more rounded tau list ironically.

**MilkmanAl**

I don't know that I'd go as far as saying his Farsight bomb would get owned by other armies, but I'm definitely not comfortable using it at anything points level less than 1750. You just can't support it adequately and achieve enough balance otherwise.

**Theorius**

Red Corsair wrote:
Ouch, 3X10 kroot is a serious hole man. That list throws out some lethal damage I'll give you that but 30 T3 LD7 bodies for 5/6 missions is horrible. Reserving them isn't a great plan as you have no reserve manipulation either. I see bad match ups against guard, necrons horde orks and nids. Really flier heavy and horde lists will own this build. Oh and a more rounded tau list ironically.

you say that but i dont play the mission and the kroot usualy do die, quickly, mwahaha.....BUT, since the enemy has to live to end of turn 5 to hold missions, I simply do not afford them that opportunity.

It is often a mistake enemies make they simply think they can kill my kroot and play the missions, but if you are focusing on anything other than the deathstar, you will die, plain and simple.

However, on the same token, I dont think your comprehending how HARD it is to hurt the death star and the riptides.

the deathstar puts out a ton of hurt very efficiently where it is needed.

Lets recap at 18" range (the sweet spot until you go for the kill with rapid fire plasma) it puts out 20xstr 5/5 10xstr6/2 , 4x str 8 ap 1, 8xstr 7/ap4 ...thats alot of shots bro! and over 80% land, and 83-90% wound, and MOST of it ignores armor and ALL of it ignores cover....(that can kill 14-16 marines a turn, and shooting at 8 targets, horde armies it kills 27 a turn.

nasty!

**greyknight12**

So, after reading through this thread the most viable counters seem to be volume of fire and using multiple units to charge the deathstar. So let's explore these a bit more:

1. Volume of fire: what weapons are ideal? What does your TAC list already have that can be useful?
Right now, it looks like AP3/ignores cover weapons are best, so baleflamers (helldrake) and flamestorm cannons (LR Redeemer) are the 2 most common weapons that fit the description. What else?

2. Dual charge: What units do this best? Perhaps a combo of something cheap to waste shots then charge a CC monster unit? Obviously something very mobile is going to have the best results, is it worth putting them in a transport?
I still view TH/SS termies are a common high-end CC unit, would you be able to get a squad of them into combat?

Finally, a cheap trick to maybe do as GK is the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon on an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, makes all plasma weapons within 12" BS1. What are some other "cheap tricks" from other armies (JOTWW has been mentioned) that could neutralize the Tau deathstar?

**Theorius**

greyknight12 wrote:
So, after reading through this thread the most viable counters seem to be volume of fire and using multiple units to charge the deathstar. So let's explore these a bit more:

1. Volume of fire: what weapons are ideal? What does your TAC list already have that can be useful?
Right now, it looks like AP3/ignores cover weapons are best, so baleflamers (helldrake) and flamestorm cannons (LR Redeemer) are the 2 most common weapons that fit the description. What else?

2. Dual charge: What units do this best? Perhaps a combo of something cheap to waste shots then charge a CC monster unit? Obviously something very mobile is going to have the best results, is it worth putting them in a transport?
I still view TH/SS termies are a common high-end CC unit, would you be able to get a squad of them into combat?

Finally, a cheap trick to maybe do as GK is the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon on an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, makes all plasma weapons within 12" BS1. What are some other "cheap tricks" from other armies (JOTWW has been mentioned) that could neutralize the Tau deathstar?

greyknight,

Its 3 categories really

1. Volume of fire --- you need to be 36" range volume of fire, to limit the jsj effect out of your range. Things that fit this. lootas, autocannons, heavy bolters.....all i can think of, but do tac lists really spam these? dakka jets? orks do the max lootas and dakka jets for sure!

2. high str ap 3 ignores cover shots -- noise marine blast masters (listed in this thread), imperial guard artillery that ignore cover and are ap3, helldrakes (multiples), jotww, night spinners? the flamers from daemons

3. dual charge -- needs to be FAST beasts, or bikes/jetbikes that can assault, but they also need to survive 1-2 rounds of shooting and then the overwatch. daemon seekers and the like as well.

edit 4th category

4. flier spam -- take 6 croissants, or 6 vendettas! but who couldnt you beat?!?!?!

FUN FACT -- The dude who started this thread has not posted since!

**anonymou5**

I'm already on board the Arty Carriage hype train, but with a different idea... I'd say a Demon list that abuses Grimoire/Divination is a fantastic counter, assuming it goes first (at 1850 it could probably go second, being able to have a second Hound/Seeker/whatever, but probably not at 1500)

20 Hounds with a 2++ are going to do the trick. Or a Lord of Change with a rerollable 2++ The key for Demons will be keeping the Grimoire alive, so they'll probably want it mounted on a FMC or a herald in a truly gigantic squad.

If firing at one target, how many wounds can the Farsight Bomb do to T4 with a 5++ ?

Edit: Example build. Lord of Change, two Greater Rewards, one lesser reward. Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut with a lesser reward and the Grimnoire. 20 Hounds. 785 points. (more than enough space for some Troops and a few Heralds of Tzeentch to also roll on Divination).

Demons go first. Scout move the Hounds/Juggernaut towards the bomb. 2++ the Hounds. Move 12 inches to surround the Bomb.

Demons go second. Probably deploy the Herald with a smaller Khorne unit out of site, see how many Hounds survive (still use their Scout move to box in Tau movement some). 2++ either LOC or Hounds depending on how many hounds are left. Either one can do the work from there.

Worst case for Tau; 2++ LOC makes it into combat. Either you accept his challenge and he instagibs one of your HQs, or you deny the challenge and he uses precision strikes to remove your Hit and Run.

Worst case for Demons. Tau steal initiative on an aggressive deployment and kill the Herald turn 1.

**shogun**

Theorius wrote:

greyknight,

Its 3 categories really

1. Volume of fire --- you need to be 36" range volume of fire, to limit the jsj effect out of your range. Things that fit this. lootas, autocannons, heavy bolters.....all i can think of, but do tac lists really spam these? dakka jets? orks do the max lootas and dakka jets for sure!

2. high str ap 3 ignores cover shots -- noise marine blast masters (listed in this thread), imperial guard artillery that ignore cover and are ap3, helldrakes (multiples), jotww, night spinners? the flamers from daemons

3. dual charge -- needs to be FAST beasts, or bikes/jetbikes that can assault, but they also need to survive 1-2 rounds of shooting and then the overwatch. daemon seekers and the like as well.

edit 4th category

4. flier spam -- take 6 croissants, or 6 vendettas! but who couldnt you beat?!?!?!

FUN FACT -- The dude who started this thread has not posted since!

just want to add one:

5. Eldar/Dark Eldar allies: Eldrad with possible hallucination or 4+ inv save and another farseer with fortune. Let Dark Eldar baron have fortune and then join a beastmaster squad and stay at the front. could ruin your day...

**A Town Called Malus**

shogun wrote:

just want to add one:

5. Eldar/Dark Eldar allies: Eldrad with possible hallucination or 4+ inv save and another farseer with fortune. Let Dark Eldar baron have fortune and then join a beastmaster squad and stay at the front. could ruin your day...

Fortune only affects units taken from Codex: Eldar. That was FAQ'd quite a while ago. So no re-rollable 2++ invulnerable save on Baron leading Beasts.

**Exergy**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
shogun wrote:

just want to add one:

5. Eldar/Dark Eldar allies: Eldrad with possible hallucination or 4+ inv save and another farseer with fortune. Let Dark Eldar baron have fortune and then join a beastmaster squad and stay at the front. could ruin your day...

Fortune only affects units taken from Codex: Eldar. That was FAQ'd quite a while ago. So no re-rollable 2++ invulnerable save on Baron leading Beasts.

but ICs become part of the unit they join.

**Theorius**

anonymou5 wrote:
I'm already on board the Arty Carriage hype train, but with a different idea... I'd say a Demon list that abuses Grimoire/Divination is a fantastic counter, assuming it goes first (at 1850 it could probably go second, being able to have a second Hound/Seeker/whatever, but probably not at 1500)

20 Hounds with a 2++ are going to do the trick. Or a Lord of Change with a rerollable 2++ The key for Demons will be keeping the Grimoire alive, so they'll probably want it mounted on a FMC or a herald in a truly gigantic squad.

If firing at one target, how many wounds can the Farsight Bomb do to T4 with a 5++ ?

Edit: Example build. Lord of Change, two Greater Rewards, one lesser reward. Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut with a lesser reward and the Grimnoire. 20 Hounds. 785 points. (more than enough space for some Troops and a few Heralds of Tzeentch to also roll on Divination).

Demons go first. Scout move the Hounds/Juggernaut towards the bomb. 2++ the Hounds. Move 12 inches to surround the Bomb.

Demons go second. Probably deploy the Herald with a smaller Khorne unit out of site, see how many Hounds survive (still use their Scout move to box in Tau movement some). 2++ either LOC or Hounds depending on how many hounds are left. Either one can do the work from there.

Worst case for Tau; 2++ LOC makes it into combat. Either you accept his challenge and he instagibs one of your HQs, or you deny the challenge and he uses precision strikes to remove your Hit and Run.

Worst case for Demons. Tau steal initiative on an aggressive deployment and kill the Herald turn 1.

The example above I did at t4 for the horde just reduce total kills by 33% due to invulnerable so...15-16 kills. This does not include riptide damage.

The 2++ reroll is a counter to anyone if you can pull it off. Thankfully if tau go first or the turn you fail the grimoire roll...

**shogun**

Exergy wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
shogun wrote:

just want to add one:

5. Eldar/Dark Eldar allies: Eldrad with possible hallucination or 4+ inv save and another farseer with fortune. Let Dark Eldar baron have fortune and then join a beastmaster squad and stay at the front. could ruin your day...

Fortune only affects units taken from Codex: Eldar. That was FAQ'd quite a while ago. So no re-rollable 2++ invulnerable save on Baron leading Beasts.

but ICs become part of the unit they join.

Indeed. I field a wraithguard unit with Eldrad, farseer and baron and give them Fortune. Wraithguard are an Eldar unit and Baron still gets it when joined. Then he flies of and joins the beastmaster. Still legal..

**anonymou5**

Theorius wrote:

The example above I did at t4 for the horde just reduce total kills by 33% due to invulnerable so...15-16 kills. This does not include riptide damage.

The 2++ reroll is a counter to anyone if you can pull it off. Thankfully if tau go first or the turn you fail the grimoire roll...

Well, hounds have two wounds. Lets say 10 dead because some of it is str8. Riptide kills a few more. Grimnoire stays alive. I was asking because I was wondering if the hound pack was a good place to run the grimnoire or not

Keep in mind that Fateweaver bumps the success rate of the grimnoire to something like 85%. Although then you have to drop The Lord of Change (or the heralds, but then you might not get 4++ to turn into a 2++. Still could pull the same nonsense with Fatewever, heralds, hounds and a Demon prince of tzeentch. (Or a second Hound pack instead of the DP)

There are a few Armies that can handle the Demon/2++ nonsense. Notably Dark Eldar. Venoms have the mobility to avoid the buffed unit, an the poisoned firepower to down everything else. They can do it without an allied farseer as well, but that just makes it an auto win for them (although not for much longer)

**Red Corsair**

Theorius wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Ouch, 3X10 kroot is a serious hole man. That list throws out some lethal damage I'll give you that but 30 T3 LD7 bodies for 5/6 missions is horrible. Reserving them isn't a great plan as you have no reserve manipulation either. I see bad match ups against guard, necrons horde orks and nids. Really flier heavy and horde lists will own this build. Oh and a more rounded tau list ironically.

you say that but i dont play the mission and the kroot usualy do die, quickly, mwahaha.....BUT, since the enemy has to live to end of turn 5 to hold missions, I simply do not afford them that opportunity.

It is often a mistake enemies make they simply think they can kill my kroot and play the missions, but if you are focusing on anything other than the deathstar, you will die, plain and simple.

However, on the same token, I dont think your comprehending how HARD it is to hurt the death star and the riptides.

the deathstar puts out a ton of hurt very efficiently where it is needed.

Lets recap at 18" range (the sweet spot until you go for the kill with rapid fire plasma) it puts out 20xstr 5/5 10xstr6/2 , 4x str 8 ap 1, 8xstr 7/ap4 ...thats alot of shots bro! and over 80% land, and 83-90% wound, and MOST of it ignores armor and ALL of it ignores cover....(that can kill 14-16 marines a turn, and shooting at 8 targets, horde armies it kills 27 a turn.

nasty!

Well no offense but your playing bad opponents then. 30 t3 ld7 wounds is a joke for any of my armies to deal with. Not to mention your deathstar is slow, its jetpack infantry, 33% of missions are hammer and anvil, my 3 t-fire canons will rape your kroot at 60" for only 300 while 1350 of your army is trying to cross the table. Sorry that unit can dump loads of fire but i am more afraid of 45 lootas then that unit. They have range and volume of fire and again cost MUCH less. Take for example 1000 points worth of stern guard, that can deal MORE damage on turn 1 anywhere on the table will creating 9 targets factoring in the 3 deathwind pods. Basically any list that is stupid enough to walk backwards into your bomb cheeks spread deserves to lose, I don't see you wining with the "i don't play the missions" against a good player though.

Look at the damage your bragging about now consider how much damage 3 A barges and 7 NS throw out for 970. That's 60 S7 HITS before any arcs a turn, transports scoring units anywhere and is more durable.

**Pony_law**

Exergy wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
shogun wrote:

just want to add one:

5. Eldar/Dark Eldar allies: Eldrad with possible hallucination or 4+ inv save and another farseer with fortune. Let Dark Eldar baron have fortune and then join a beastmaster squad and stay at the front. could ruin your day...

Fortune only affects units taken from Codex: Eldar. That was FAQ'd quite a while ago. So no re-rollable 2++ invulnerable save on Baron leading Beasts.

but ICs become part of the unit they join.

you can cast fortune on Barron joining an eldar unit (the harlistar or jetseer council), If eldar IC's join a DE unit, that is still a DE unit.