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XenosTerminus wrote:

The comment that inevitably surfaces whenever someone points out people incessantly complain (especially online) that 'you are complaining about complainer's' is laughable at best. There are drastic differences between pointing out people are overly negative. It's not like people randomly start threads with topics such as 'people on here complain too much' or 'there are too many complaints about X'. No. People comment within threads that rapidly devolve into activists of their respective 'playerbase' slinging insults at eachother and digging their heels in the dirt.

I have seen nobody really slinging insults or unfounded claims yet, so I don't see a problem.
And the issue isn't laughable. It's hypocritical. If I said you shouldn't drive cars and rode a bike, then I'm not in contradiction. If I said people shouldn't complain because it annoys me and my game isn't for them, then I am establishing my own criteria and preference into the situation and expressing my distaste. Which I stated was bad to do. Completely relevant.

What a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that 40K is not a "It's for this market and this market only" product. It's openly sold to and enjoyed by many different types of people. They are called consumers. As consumers they have the right, and I'd even go so far as to say the obligation, to voice their opinion on their purchase. I am a competitive player because I care about a balanced rule set. I don't like having to limit my list and I don't like asking my opponent to limit his. I don't like having to set up for a scenario game just to make things some what balanced. As it is, I am not pleased with the current situation.

Just like I'm sure GW would not like the situation if all competitive players just stopped playing the game, and purchasing models, because the game "isn't for us"

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

Go watch battle reports or read some. The games don't play out like the codex is complete garbage. A disappointment, maybe, but certainly not warranting all of the hate.

I have seen a lot of the ones with Reesius. Most notably was the one against Tau in Hammer and Anvil where the entire time the Nids basically hid because they couldn't close the distance. The problem with the competitive vs non-competitive mindset is that non-competitive players don't care that competitive players are having a very uphill battle. It's not just a problem with Nids, nor just with Tau and Eldar. The rules are sloppy and poorly balanced internally and externally, at best. This isn't something that should be defended. It honestly needs improvement and it should not be frowned upon to expect more from a company that is charging a premium for their product.

I think people just need to complain. About everything.

Like how people complain about complaints.

This.

A lot of people claiming "you're just doing it wrong" and waving their "beer and pretzels" flag. This doesn't convince anyone that playing competitively is wrong or bad, nor will it change their approach to a game. It's human nature. It's the reason why a group of friends can play pool together, but eventually slap a $20 on the table to see who's really the best. Play poker with chips and friends enough, and someone will always want to up the ante to real money.

Any time you bring people together playing a game, and someone will eventually feel they're so good that they should prove it with prizes, cash, trophies, medals, ribbons, etc.

It's no different for 40k. People want to be recognized for being a better painter. People want to feel they're a superior strategist or list designer. It's a warm fuzzy feeling to be recognized for spending a thousand dollars building an army, a hundred hours painting it and be acknowledged for performing above other hobbyists. Demeaning people for being competitive with a game that concludes with a winner and loser is mind boggling. Trying to convince them to play uncompetitively is a fool's errand.

The point that so many "whiners" are trying to make is that Tau/Eldar are the top armies in any given tournament. By definition, to be competitive you need to be able to defeat them once you get to the top tables. Reece has his $100 challenge because he's fairly certain the new nid book just cannot do it. Is it really such a travesty for hobbyists to be upset that they got a new book that stands no chance in a tournament setting?

The Tau update gave them a lot of very fun and useful abilities, wargear, and signature systems. Eldar got a lot of very fun and useful abilities, wargear, and relics. Space marines got a lot of very fun and useful abilities, wargear, and relics. Is it a surprise, whining, or knee-jerk when tyranid players saw this trend, but received mostly nerfs, useless relics, and worsened synapse/IB? Nothing made the army "more fun" to play. Adding 20% more models to an already slow army is a very bad thing in a timed tournament setting.

 Psienesis wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:
most hobbies cost nothing actually, or next to nothing.

try taking walks, drawing, writing, jogging, playing cards, reading, playing with your kids, swiming or all sorts of other stuff.

Playing with your kids isn't a hobby, it's a requirement of being a decent parent.
Drawing, especially if you are going to take a stab at being good at it, is going to cost you a fair bit in pencils, pens, inks, etc. Or, if you want to go digital, a Wacom tablet. Not exactly cheap.
Walking? If you want to do it the right way (ie, not hurt yourself) you're going to want shoes that provide you the support your feet need, and that are comfortable. Those tend to cost a bit, too.
Playing cards is cheap because cards are cheap. That is, as long as you don't play cards for money as a hobby. That can get expensive.
Swimming is not cheap if you don't have access to a free swimming pool. Having your own installed is thousands of dollars.

But you know what? You can play 40K for nothing or next-to-nothing as well. The price of the models does not, in any way, impact how serious one should take the game. There are all sorts of methods to get cheap-or-free 40K models and books.

I see playing with your kids as a hobby since there are no laws forcing you to do it and especially none forcing you to enjoy it. its an activity which can be fun, that you can do often, or not.
That to me is a hobby.

Drawing cost me about 5-15$ per year of crayons and paper, I consider that next to nothing. of course if you want to go seriously in something you can go all out and spend a lot but you really dont have to.

swiming requires the right location (near a lake or river) or equipment (pool) but some people have those and dont even use them. for those people, choosing to start swiming as a hobby would be completely free.

just saying, me and my girlfriend dont have much money, but we do have a lot of hobbies, warhammer is by far the most expensive one between the 2 of us.
I know its still a lot less expensive then some other hobbies but some hobbies are ridiculous.

I still love warhammer.

dont really like games workshop but warhammer is cool.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

Go watch battle reports or read some. The games don't play out like the codex is complete garbage. A disappointment, maybe, but certainly not warranting all of the hate.

I have seen a lot of the ones with Reesius. Most notably was the one against Tau in Hammer and Anvil where the entire time the Nids basically hid because they couldn't close the distance. The problem with the competitive vs non-competitive mindset is that non-competitive players don't care that competitive players are having a very uphill battle. It's not just a problem with Nids, nor just with Tau and Eldar. The rules are sloppy and poorly balanced internally and externally, at best. This isn't something that should be defended. It honestly needs improvement and it should not be frowned upon to expect more from a company that is charging a premium for their product.

I think people just need to complain. About everything.

Like how people complain about complaints.

This.

A lot of people claiming "you're just doing it wrong" and waving their "beer and pretzels" flag. This doesn't convince anyone that playing competitively is wrong or bad, nor will it change their approach to a game. It's human nature. It's the reason why a group of friends can play pool together, but eventually slap a $20 on the table to see who's really the best. Play poker with chips and friends enough, and someone will always want to up the ante to real money.

Any time you bring people together playing a game, and someone will eventually feel they're so good that they should prove it with prizes, cash, trophies, medals, ribbons, etc.

It's no different for 40k. People want to be recognized for being a better painter. People want to feel they're a superior strategist or list designer. It's a warm fuzzy feeling to be recognized for spending a thousand dollars building an army, a hundred hours painting it and be acknowledged for performing above other hobbyists. Demeaning people for being competitive with a game that concludes with a winner and loser is mind boggling. Trying to convince them to play uncompetitively is a fool's errand.

The point that so many "whiners" are trying to make is that Tau/Eldar are the top armies in any given tournament. By definition, to be competitive you need to be able to defeat them once you get to the top tables. Reece has his $100 challenge because he's fairly certain the new nid book just cannot do it. Is it really such a travesty for hobbyists to be upset that they got a new book that stands no chance in a tournament setting?

The Tau update gave them a lot of very fun and useful abilities, wargear, and signature systems. Eldar got a lot of very fun and useful abilities, wargear, and relics. Space marines got a lot of very fun and useful abilities, wargear, and relics. Is it a surprise, whining, or knee-jerk when tyranid players saw this trend, but received mostly nerfs, useless relics, and worsened synapse/IB? Nothing made the army "more fun" to play. Adding 20% more models to an already slow army is a very bad thing in a timed tournament setting.

It's not a travesty, but people that honestly believe GW balances this game around tournament play, or making sure each book is competitively comparable are deluding themselves.

Most of the vocally outspoken people upset over the disparity between individual army books have been playing this game long enough to know it is random, unpredictable, and unbalanced. It is very much an arms race/meta-game oriented system if you look at it from a competitive perspective.

I will say it again. This game will never satisfy you from a balanced tournament perspective.

 beigeknight wrote:

just a chore thanks to 1000 USRs 100+ pages rulebook

I really don't get this. All you have to do is read through the book a bunch of times to know the rules, and anything you don't remember you can look up in like 20 seconds if you know the book (less if you tab it for important things. It's not that complex. If you play this game, you should know the rules and know your codex. It's like how I don't get how people can't watch foreign movies with subtitles. It's not that hard.

Yes it's not that hard. It's not beer and pretzels either when you have to read 100 pages long book "a bunch of times" also know your codex, your opponent's codex and possibly 2 more at least if you use allies, prepare the list etc.

I, for example, don't play 40k 6th edition a lot (not especialy fond of it), not more often than boardgames and what I can tell you is that with those I can sit to a game for which I read the rules once, 5 years ago, last time played it half a year ago and chances are I will not have to check the rulebook even once to play. I also play boardgames with people that play purely to win (which btw is normal in every game - including casual ones - except 40k/whfb where bunch of delicate special snowflakes tries to get everyone down to their level of play) and we ussualy get moderate to solidly drunk. The game is still based on hard strategic thinking and outsmarting your opponent, I don't know why people suggest you have to get mindless just because beer.

What I describe above is still more beer and pretzel experience than laid back game of 40k where after 3 months of not playing I have to check 15 things again to even start and throughout the game watch every exception, interaction and variation of a rule. It's not hard, it's just a chore when you're drunk and a very bad engine for laid back rolling dice and just having fun, forging a narrative etc, that you can achieve with a single dice and really simple characteristics. Sure few games in a row and it gets almost fluid but it is still one of the last games I'd choose to have "larfs with friends pushing mandolies off table".

 fartherthanfar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:
most hobbies cost nothing actually, or next to nothing.

try taking walks, drawing, writing, jogging, playing cards, reading, playing with your kids, swiming or all sorts of other stuff.

Playing with your kids isn't a hobby, it's a requirement of being a decent parent.
Drawing, especially if you are going to take a stab at being good at it, is going to cost you a fair bit in pencils, pens, inks, etc. Or, if you want to go digital, a Wacom tablet. Not exactly cheap.
Walking? If you want to do it the right way (ie, not hurt yourself) you're going to want shoes that provide you the support your feet need, and that are comfortable. Those tend to cost a bit, too.
Playing cards is cheap because cards are cheap. That is, as long as you don't play cards for money as a hobby. That can get expensive.
Swimming is not cheap if you don't have access to a free swimming pool. Having your own installed is thousands of dollars.

But you know what? You can play 40K for nothing or next-to-nothing as well. The price of the models does not, in any way, impact how serious one should take the game. There are all sorts of methods to get cheap-or-free 40K models and books.

I see playing with your kids as a hobby since there are no laws forcing you to do it and especially none forcing you to enjoy it. its an activity which can be fun, that you can do often, or not.
That to me is a hobby.

Drawing cost me about 5-15$ per year of crayons and paper, I consider that next to nothing. of course if you want to go seriously in something you can go all out and spend a lot but you really dont have to.

swiming requires the right location (near a lake or river) or equipment (pool) but some people have those and dont even use them. for those people, choosing to start swiming as a hobby would be completely free.

just saying, me and my girlfriend dont have much money, but we do have a lot of hobbies, warhammer is by far the most expensive one between the 2 of us.
I know its still a lot less expensive then some other hobbies but some hobbies are ridiculous.

I still love warhammer.

dont really like games workshop but warhammer is cool.

Just got to say, if you're drawing with crayons, you're doing it wrong and probably don't take it seriously...unless you're some new age modern artist that will sell his crayon drawing for a thousand bucks. Any hobby can be cheap if you don't take it seriously. Even 40k. Borrow a friend's army. By some cheap Reaper minis and proxy, etc.

Warhammer is cheap because motoring, yachts and guns, love the logic.

It is ridiculously expensive for what it is, plastic toy soldiers on the table. I pay because I love the models and they really are best imo but don't try to delude myself that it makes any sense financialy.

XenosTerminus wrote:

It's not a travesty, but people that honestly believe GW balances this game around tournament play, or making sure each book is competitively comparable are deluding themselves.

If you're telling people that voice their concern for a problem to stop complaining about the problem you end up with silence and a problem. More importantly this is a forum for the fanbase to gather together and discuss their opinions. This thread in particular starts off with the OP saying he wants people to keep complaining, so really you'd be the one going against the grain in this thread.

Honestly I wish people would stop encouraging a bad rule set. I get it you don't want to put your best effort into the game to win. Why run when you can jog, right? Nobody is saying the army can't be fun to play. Nobody is saying that certain builds can't be competitive.
But you can't say that everything is perfectly fine just because your opponent isn't bringing his A game to play in a competition with you.

I will say it again. This game will never satisfy you from a balanced tournament perspective.

Because it can't or it won't?
It definitely can. There are plenty of complex games with balanced rules and balanced games with complex rules.
Why is it a bad thing that I ask for them to do the same?

If the game was balanced then everyone would win. Casual and competitive players. Or better yet, what's the harm in 40K being balanced. What do you have to lose from it?

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Warhammer is cheap because motoring, yachts and guns, love the logic.

It is ridiculously expensive for what it is, plastic toy soldiers on the table. I pay because I love the models and they really are best imo but don't try to delude myself that it makes any sense financialy.

Agreed. It's very expensive, but at the end of the day it is a luxury hobby.

It's incredibly unproductive and pointless to complain how expensive an optional activity in your life is that is done solely for fun in most cases. If the prices are starting to become unreasonable to you, find a different hobby, or a different way to approach the hobby.

In a hobby that does not support actual competitive play without serious re-working of the rules? Yes, actually. Complaining that the new Codex is not on par with a pair of Codices that, when combined in certain builds, are largely and widely recognized as "broken as all hell" *is* doing it wrong. Because few, if any, other armies are on par with these builds. It's not the Tyranid Codex alone that suffers at the hands of the ultra-optimised TauDar builds.

This is not a game designed for competitive play. At all. That is why TOs have to tell people "you can bring this, you can't bring that. You can no more than 2 of those, no more than 1 of those, and you have to have at least 3 of that, this and that other thing. Also, we're disallowing the Flip A Table SR in this tourney, and instead replacing it with Bunny With A Pancake On Its Head."

And if your (non-specific you) complaint is that the Tyranid Codex is not capable of beating a very narrow selection of ultra-optimized lists from two of the top-most Codices in the game... well, to me, seems that the complaint is that your lists are not cheesy enough, rather than the TauDar builds being *too* cheesy (which is a complaint I could support to some extent).

Savageconvoy wrote:
The rules are sloppy and poorly balanced internally and externally, at best. This isn't something that should be defended. It honestly needs improvement and it should not be frowned upon to expect more from a company that is charging a premium for their product.

Well, you don't effin' say!

Newsflash: GW rules have *always* been poorly worded, sloppy, and often very poorly balanced. This is why each edition of the game is generally know for being the Edition of X, where X is assault, RazorSpam, WarpQuake, LeafBlower, TauDar or wtfever (and sometimes a combination of 2 or more). To expect anything different from 6th Ed, when 6th Ed has obviously not been trending in that direction (Codices Tau and Eldar being Exhibits A through ZZ, and the converse of Codices: CSM and Daemons being supporting evidence exhibits AA through Potato) is being particularly obstinate in a mindset that is simply not supported by the game, now or historically.

Sure, SM and Tau and Eldar were "great" Codices. AS was... far less impressive. In fact, the only truly impressive thing about it was that it was released at all. Otherwise, the primary star-player lost her main draw and the entire Army lost a vast bulk of its most-special mechanics. So it is not as if Tyranid is the only disappointing Codex in 6E so far.

Would it be nice if 40K was a clear, concise, easy to follow and understand compilation of rules, balanced units (both internally and externally), with each army being a viable option on the tabletop yet having a distinct playstyle and flavor all it's own? Feth, yes! That would be awesome!

40K has never, ever been that, though. To expect that it somehow should magically become that over 1 book is... mind-boggling.

Most importantly, though, if someone is having fun in their local games with a Codex that people don't like, then more power to 'em! The Codex works for them, they're having fun with it, and you (non-specific) probably never have to play against them for as long as you live. Everybody wins! The threads where they say "man, say what you will about it, I'm having a blast and so are my friends! I bet there's a super-secret Power 9000 list in here somewhere!" is not the thread to piss on their wheaties and tell them the Codex sucks.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

It's not a travesty, but people that honestly believe GW balances this game around tournament play, or making sure each book is competitively comparable are deluding themselves.

If you're telling people that voice their concern for a problem to stop complaining about the problem you end up with silence and a problem. More importantly this is a forum for the fanbase to gather together and discuss their opinions. This thread in particular starts off with the OP saying he wants people to keep complaining, so really you'd be the one going against the grain in this thread.

Honestly I wish people would stop encouraging a bad rule set. I get it you don't want to put your best effort into the game to win. Why run when you can jog, right? Nobody is saying the army can't be fun to play. Nobody is saying that certain builds can't be competitive.
But you can't say that everything is perfectly fine just because your opponent isn't bringing his A game to play in a competition with you.

I will say it again. This game will never satisfy you from a balanced tournament perspective.

Because it can't or it won't?
It definitely can. There are plenty of complex games with balanced rules and balanced games with complex rules.
Why is it a bad thing that I ask for them to do the same?

If the game was balanced then everyone would win. Casual and competitive players. Or better yet, what's the harm in 40K being balanced. What do you have to lose from it?

I have already stated everyone would benefit from a more balanced and expertly crafted ruleset. I am not refuting this point.

My point is that that is not GW's modus operandi. It never has, and never will be.

You can hope, dream, pray.. whatever. Unless GW drastically changes their overall perspective and vision for the game (this will likely not happen anytime soon, if at all, if 6th edition hasn't proven this enough) every codex/additional supplement will continue to disappoint you.

Unless, of course, that supplement happens to be powerful (edit- broken compared to the bar set lower by the majority of the other books).

I just don't understand it, that is all. It's a vicious never-ending cycle with cries and the gnashing of teeth. It's perfectly reasonable to be upset with a company because of their business practices, goals, or products. That is your right.

What is unreasonable is expecting something different after nearly a decade. Some things are just not meant to be taken as seriously as they are, and quite honestly it isn't the least bit surprising to me that so many people dislike 40k simply because they have unrealistic expectations for what the game is/what they expect to get out of it.

There are alternatives that would suit your needs/tastes.

I think in the end the codex will be competitive, and GW knows it. You will only have to buy 3 dataslates.

Which is another thing against the codex. Even if it is a twisted way to fix "nids can't do allies" thing, it is still crap because it should be in the book, in form of FOC altering or sth, special rules etc. It is disrespectful of people paying 50$ for a book and a cash grab, and no amount of people owning armies in their casual friends circle is going to change that.

 Psienesis wrote:
The threads where they say "man, say what you will about it, I'm having a blast and so are my friends! I bet there's a super-secret Power 9000 list in here somewhere!" is not the thread to piss on their wheaties and tell them the Codex sucks.

So you're saying the thread that says
"I really hope people keep talking about how bad the Nid codex is..."
Where the Op also says

Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them.

Is not the place to talk about how bad the Nid codex is?
Really?!

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The threads where they say "man, say what you will about it, I'm having a blast and so are my friends! I bet there's a super-secret Power 9000 list in here somewhere!" is not the thread to piss on their wheaties and tell them the Codex sucks.

So you're saying the thread that says
"I really hope people keep talking about how bad the Nid codex is..."
Where the Op also says

Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them.

Is not the place to talk about how bad the Nid codex is?
Really?!

I am convinced these people are just trolling at this point. Hence why they keep resorting to the same strawman arguments.

I mean, you have one side saying they want balanced and well written rules that benefit everyone. And the other side that wants to tell people they are playing wrong, wants to refuse people from using what they purchase, and calls people names. It isn't even a debate at this point.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The threads where they say "man, say what you will about it, I'm having a blast and so are my friends! I bet there's a super-secret Power 9000 list in here somewhere!" is not the thread to piss on their wheaties and tell them the Codex sucks.

So you're saying the thread that says
"I really hope people keep talking about how bad the Nid codex is..."
Where the Op also says

Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them.

Is not the place to talk about how bad the Nid codex is?
Really?!

No.

I mean, Jesus, that line "we will strike hard before they know what hit them!" is, like, Saturday morning cartoon villain planning. All he needs is a large, white cat and a maniacal laugh to complete the scene.

Are you afraid that he might actually find a "OMGKillah!" list in the Tyranid Codex?
Are you going to play against him with your (whatever the heck it is you play) and be like when he somehow wtfpwns you by Turn 3 with a horde o' bugs?
No?

Then why do you care if he and his local group might end up with a list from Codex: Tyranids that is a "power list" in their meta?

I think instead of picking up the sword and shield and for 5 pages telling people what opinions this thread is allowed to contain, you should instead hit the yellow triangle on posts that you think break a rule, and try and remember that if you want to post an opinion without any dissenting feedback, a blog would be a better place for that.

To me, yellow triangle is for stuff that is patently offensive. Like, overtly racist, sexist or other "-ist" comments. Also, spam-bots.

Other than that, it's a forum. It's not serious business. Also, as I have pointed out more than a couple times, there *is* a thread just a bit down the page that specifically asks for people's opinions on the Tyranid Codex. Also also, this is less about people posting their opinions, and more about people trying to prove other people's opinions wrong. Me, I don't give a feth. But I think it's a pretty terrible thing for people to piss on something that someone else is obviously having fun with. That makes them donkey caves, and those I will hammer on until I get bored of doing it.

The OP didn't say he wanted opinions on the codex, he said that he hopes people keep talking it down, because he's having fun with it in his local groups, and hopes that they find some killer build in it that will take everyone by surprise. And then a bunch of donkey caves came in looking to get their Dreamcrusher perk, when there is a thread just down the page a bit (or might be up the page a bit as of this post) for posting their opinions on the Codex.

Granted i'm playing orks, but I don't see how the tyranids are bad. Strong fun codex imo.