Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So if winning does not a good codex make... and you can win with a "bad" codex... does it really matter in the long run if a codex is deemed good or bad?

huh? The problem is good can be arbitrary for the individual. What do you want from the codex? Fluff? Diversity? Creative models to deploy? More options? More choices? Do you want it to have a beastly competitive list and have it have several lists so you aren't stuck with a monolist, or do you simply want it to deploy your models and take yours off when they die and your opponent theirs when they die. If you can have fun with it, well then it doesn't matter if the book itself is bad. For you, it will suit your purposes just fine. But you have to remember that there are legitimate reasons individuals are displeased in the book. A lot of bits were taken out, many things were not addressed nor improved, an entire method of deployment was removed and there were many things lost with very little gained back. The must take went from Elites to heavy and Flyrants went from simply better to never touch a normal hive tyrant. They lost biomancy and have no way of even countering the fact that everybody else at least gets allies and many individuals are frustrated that it did very little when the developers admitted the codex had many problems instead making it more punishing when you lose synapse whilst making many things that already weren't fielding even more costly but then making you feel forced to take it lest your units start running away or eating eachother apart.

 Antario wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Antario wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.

Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.

A beer and pretzels game aimed at customers who are not allowed to drink yet. Yep, I can see where it all went wrong

Drinking age in England is 16, isn't it?

It's 18 to purchase I think, while allowed at 16 when on private property of something. Need to ask a Brit to be sure.

Can at 16, but only with parental consent and not drinking publicly.

Trust the Student

Anyho back to topic, I hope it really is as bad as they say so I can crush under Hades Autocannon fire haha

So just ask if your opponent is ok with you playing with the 5th edition codex instead of complaining?

HiveGuard wrote:
So just ask if your opponent is ok with you playing with the 5th edition codex instead of complaining?

What do you lose if people complain until any google search for "6th edition tyranid codex" leads to threads pointing out it's flaws? What is your stake in this? Are we threatening your ability to play the game by pointing out that this is a mediocre rehash of an already mediocre predecessor codex? No? Then kindly get off your high horse.

 Kain wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

After all, if the army with the best codex always wins, the Germans would have won WWII and the Americans Vietnam.

The Germans lost because the economic deck was stacked ridiculously against them (America alone outproduced the entire Axis) and attrition soon robbed Germany of any skilled soldiers or supplies to keep their army in tip top shape. The allies could produce far more materiel that was technologically equivalent and had effectively limitless manpower. Also, the Germans couldn't have even defeated Britain, they had no hope of defeating the royal navy and without the royal navy out of the way, Britain was uninvadable.

I'm not really an expert on vietnam so I'll leave it to someone else to explain to you why this is a dumb comparison.

Actually that's my point entirely. In WWII. The Germans were arguably the pinicle in terms of military structure and equipment. So much so, that the doctrine they used is still followed in general terms today by almost every major military. The designs of their equipment were so advanced that many modern weapons can trace their ideological origins to items used by the Germans in WWII. Still the Germans lost due to economic and logistical factors.

In Vietnam you had the most advanced military on the planet fighting a war against farmers and peasants armed with AK-47s and improvised weapons, but political and social factors forced the Americans to withdraw from the conflict.

War doesn't always go to has the best army on paper and neither does wargaming. The player, the battlefield, the scenario and the dice all have a role in the outcome that isn't accounted for in the army list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HiveGuard wrote:
So if winning does not a good codex make... and you can win with a "bad" codex... does it really matter in the long run if a codex is deemed good or bad?

Not if you enjoy playing it.

The Germans were arguably the pinicle in terms of military structure and equipment

Here's your problem; this isn't a true statement. Unless you live in Hollywood or 1944 suburban America. Anywhere else and its kind of bunk.

And the Ak-47 was one of the best assault rifles of the time, which explains why it's still popular to this day. The North wasn't just farmers either. They were an actual army with good equipment.

 LordofHats wrote:

The Germans were arguably the pinicle in terms of military structure and equipment

Here's your problem; this isn't a true statement. Unless you live in Hollywood or 1944 suburban America. Anywhere else and its kind of bunk.

The Germans had specific equipment that was great. And they had great NCOs. But most of their army was horse drawn and their average rate of advance was equal to the Union army of the Civil War. Hardly a pinnacle.

Not trying to be on a high horse. Just saying that I don't think it is a bad codex, and if people do there are things they can do about it.

The must take went from Elites to heavy and Flyrants went from simply better to never touch a normal hive tyrant

True. People say that Biomancy was a crutch for nids , but they didn't magicly get errated for 6th ed . They had the same codex they had in 5th , and I don't think anyone can say that one was good. Biomancy made nids good . Taking it away would have made sense , if they got something in return and they didn't . What they got is a phase out type rule and those are never fun . Taking synaps because it buffs your army and allows different tactics is cool . Taking synaps because without it you lose , is not fun and it makes no sense considering they took away so many things .
Sure people say that stuff like biovores got better. And they are right in , on paper in a void where opponents don't move and don't shot back biovores got better. But then to run them you have to keep a tervigon in your back field and if that big ass model gets killed your artilery isn't so good anymore. It is not effective and it isn't cheap in points and the only other option to use something else is to either burn an HQ slots on a prime or taking zoethropes . And both of those options are worse , then tervigon , unless we put them all in a big ass stronghold and add a few void shields and venoms . Then the whole thing starts working , but it also starts to cost a ton of points too. And if someone plays where stronghold assault is not core rules , he is in deep trouble.

Can at 16, but only with parental consent and not drinking publicly.

That is the strangest thing I have ever heard. What would stop someone from buying alkohol at the age of 10-12 ?

There's no shame in admitting its a crappy codex full of Copy Paste stuff from the last edition or that your army tends to self destruct.

You can admit that the codex has deep flaws and still have fun and still win.

But to say the codex is great is just delusional.

 MWHistorian wrote:
There's no shame in admitting its a crappy codex full of Copy Paste stuff from the last edition or that your army tends to self destruct.

You can admit that the codex has deep flaws and still have fun and still win.

But to say the codex is great is just delusional.

I agree with this a lot. The codex is not great. But nor do I think it is awful.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.

Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.

No, not really. Mindless dice throwing stops being fun around 6th - 8th birthday. Maybe 12 if you're slowed.

btw suggesting 40k is beer and pretzels in 99% cases is just trolling. It was succesfuly debunked so many times that only people immune to logic and reason or simple trolls can repeat such an obvious fallacy.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.

Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.

No, not really. Mindless dice throwing stops being fun around 6th - 8th birthday. Maybe 12 if you're slowed.

btw suggesting 40k is beer and pretzels in 99% cases is just trolling. It was succesfuly debunked so many times that only people immune to logic and reason or simple trolls can repeat such an obvious fallacy.

I have yet to see someone debunk the idea that 40K is a beer and pretzels game.

I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.

 Psienesis wrote:


I have yet to see someone debunk the idea that 40K is a beer and pretzels game.

I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.

Sure, but then every game ever made can be called a beer and pretzels game.

At this point, we might as well drop the whole beer and pretzel thing and go back to just calling it a game. Like every other game.

I actually think that would be a grand idea. It's a game. It's not SrsBzns.

However, some people seem convinced that a game of 40K is somehow srsbzns, because they play it in large (?) buildings with other people and that all aspects of the game should be devoted to enhancing that playstyle.

To which I say "yeah, it'd be cool if it was like that"... but it hasn't been this way. Ever. It's not going to start now.

So drink a beer, roll some dice, move your war-dolls around.

But that's not the point a lot of people are making.

The point is that the Nid codex was a rushed product that is overpriced for the content it delivers, and continues to show that GW is only capable of producing poorly balanced codices with messy rules.

Its not that it srs bznss, its that people are disappointed a product for an army they love is very substandard.

 Psienesis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.

Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.

No, not really. Mindless dice throwing stops being fun around 6th - 8th birthday. Maybe 12 if you're slowed.

btw suggesting 40k is beer and pretzels in 99% cases is just trolling. It was succesfuly debunked so many times that only people immune to logic and reason or simple trolls can repeat such an obvious fallacy.

I have yet to see someone debunk the idea that 40K is a beer and pretzels game.

The size of the rulebook is enough to debunk it.

 Psienesis wrote:
I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.

Why throw dice? Just make a sound and push your opponent's models off the table. Fun.

In the meantime, I want a balanced, tactical game that forces me to use my mind in order to play succesfuly. After 10 beers, it is still what I want, homo sapiens is capable of strategising even when drunk.

Your friends suck at the game.

Congrats for them and you, I guess.

HiveGuard wrote:
Because I'll keep winning against my friends with all those units that supposedly got nerfed. Now to clarify, I am not a tournament player. There's a very good chance that I will never face Seerstar or Triptide lists. I hear the arguments that the tyranid army dies really easily to enemy shooting, but tyranid shooting is pretty fantastic in this edition. Lots of blast templates to snipe out those pesky melta or plasma guns and pinning is a Tyranid player's new best friend. Yes everyone likes Dakka Flyrants, but mine died on turn 1 to shooting. And you know what? I'm fine with that, because it took his WHOLE army to bring it down. Your models are going to die, but most everything in the codex is useful and does it's job well. Support your units, try out some of those "nerfed" models, and make the opponent fear us on the tabletop again. Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them. Rant over.

Here comes Mr. Big Fish out of his small pond...

HiveGuard wrote:
Because I'll keep winning against my friends with all those units that supposedly got nerfed. Now to clarify, I am not a tournament player. There's a very good chance that I will never face Seerstar or Triptide lists. I hear the arguments that the tyranid army dies really easily to enemy shooting, but tyranid shooting is pretty fantastic in this edition. Lots of blast templates to snipe out those pesky melta or plasma guns and pinning is a Tyranid player's new best friend. Yes everyone likes Dakka Flyrants, but mine died on turn 1 to shooting. And you know what? I'm fine with that, because it took his WHOLE army to bring it down. Your models are going to die, but most everything in the codex is useful and does it's job well. Support your units, try out some of those "nerfed" models, and make the opponent fear us on the tabletop again. Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them. Rant over.

How do blasts snipe out melta or plasma guns? The Biovore is the only one with barrage.

In the meantime, I want a balanced, tactical game that forces me to use my mind in order to play succesfuly. After 10 beers, it is still what I want, homo sapiens is capable of strategising even when drunk.

You want Warmachine/ Hordes for that.

About 7/10 for balance (Vs. circa 2/10 for 40k). It's not perfect, but it's a rule set that's simple but also deeply tactical, if you select the more tactical armies.

Clarity of rules: 9.5/10 vs. 5/10. Pretty much every rules query on the forum is answered with "Look at page xx where it is all clearly explained." Any still unclear rules get clarified by members of PP staff within a day or so and may appear in their FAQ, updated every couple of months. GW's stopped doing any FAQ now? When they could be bothered that is...

Rules support: Mentioned above. Excellent rules help, great forum and timely rules answers. 9.5/10 vs. GW's 0/10 cos' they really couldn't give a t*ss.

Community Engagement. Weekly updates from PP on their latest products and sneak peeks and advance releases of units up to 12 months before official release in the latest update. Vs. GW's super secret no previews at all release schedule.

Updates: Every faction (Apart from one deliberately limited faction) gets updated every 12-18 months via newly released books. As mentioned above, balance isn't perfect but at least this way PP can attempt to patch the game, strengthening the weaker factions as required. Vs. GW's releases where stuff gets released and then forgotten for years. 10 years since the last Bretonnian book? 9/10 vs. 2/10.

No point complaining about GW products cos they don't care. They've sold rubbish for years and they're still doing it. Vote with your wallet and try some other games. If not WM/H, then maybe Flames of War, Malifaux or infinity.

Maybe then GW will attempt to write a decent Nids codex.


Gaz

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.

Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.

Sorry its not beer and pretzels when my friend who plays tau has to "go easy" on all the other players in the group so he doesnt win too easily. That or he just plays his necrons so we stand a better chance. Just saying it's not fun unless its a close game, and the codexs aren't balanced enough to achieve that.

HiveGuard wrote:
Any of our troops with support are good at holding objectives.

and absolute gak at getting to them unmolested.

 davou wrote:

HiveGuard wrote:
Any of our troops with support are good at holding objectives.

and absolute gak at getting to them unmolested.

Is there an army whose troops aren't good at holding objectives "with support"? I mean, most other armies seem to do fine without support, so I'm not sure how that really falls into the "plus for Nids" category.

 davou wrote:

HiveGuard wrote:
Any of our troops with support are good at holding objectives.

and absolute gak at getting to them unmolested.

I like how he says "with support", because he knows that without a Venomthrope and a Synapse creature nearby most of our troops will simply die to a few blast weapons or spontaneously try to eat each other or run away from the objective they were supposed to be capturing.

HiveGuard wrote:
Because I'll keep winning against my friends with all those units that supposedly got nerfed. Now to clarify, I am not a tournament player. There's a very good chance that I will never face Seerstar or Triptide lists. I hear the arguments that the tyranid army dies really easily to enemy shooting, but tyranid shooting is pretty fantastic in this edition. Lots of blast templates to snipe out those pesky melta or plasma guns and pinning is a Tyranid player's new best friend. Yes everyone likes Dakka Flyrants, but mine died on turn 1 to shooting. And you know what? I'm fine with that, because it took his WHOLE army to bring it down. Your models are going to die, but most everything in the codex is useful and does it's job well. Support your units, try out some of those "nerfed" models, and make the opponent fear us on the tabletop again. Let them think we are weak now, and we will strike hard before they know what hit them. Rant over.

So I understand that you're annoyed by whiners, but what is the point of this thread? It seems its just a way for you to brag that you're winning games despite the codex being nerfed. Or is this your way of arguing that it hasn't truly been nerfed?

I agree that the codex has flaws, but faq, codex suplements and dataslate will probably solve those issues.
In the meantime I am much happier playing with a codex that the internet calls bullcrap. Cuz I would feel bad winning with a codex that everyone thought was OP.
Given my non-competitive environment I feel I got a better codex because most things got cheaper. And a fair amount of them got better. We did lose some things but I feel we gained a good amount more than we lost. Many of the issues people have with the new codex were issues we already had in the previous codex so its not like it got worst. Merely just didnt get fixed....yet

If you honestly think that supplements and data slates are an acceptable answer to fixing the Nids flaws, then you may want to have someone hide your wallet.

The problems to a $50 codex should not be fixed by a $10 data slate or $50 supplement.