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Tyranid shooting went up by a large margin in a shooting edition, but even that isn't seen as positive, because the codex sucks?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
If you honestly think that supplements and data slates are an acceptable answer to fixing the Nids flaws, then you may want to have someone hide your wallet.

The problems to a $50 codex should not be fixed by a $10 data slate or $50 supplement.

It's not $10. It's £10! Time to find those discount iTunes vouchers...

When I first read the codex I was pretty depressed. After a week I am much less depressed, but the Instinctive Behavior table crippling to swarm Tyranids.

I think against SM, Tyranids can have a fun game. Against Chaos, and maybe Chaos Space Marines as well. Never played and don't have access to IG or DE codex. Orcs will be a fun match Its the Eldar and Tau, especially Tau, that are going to be sheer frustration to deal with. In my opinion, for what that's worth.

Naw wrote:
Tyranid shooting went up by a large margin in a shooting edition, but even that isn't seen as positive, because the codex sucks?

There are positives, there are negatives, people are upset because to them the negatives severely outweigh the positives.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Naw wrote:
Tyranid shooting went up by a large margin in a shooting edition, but even that isn't seen as positive, because the codex sucks?

There are positives, there are negatives, people are upset because to them the negatives severely outweigh the positives.

So the new codex plays differently, it is a learning process for all.

A large number of battle reports do not paint such a bleak picture.


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And Tau is a frustration for everyone, not just Tyranids.

"Beer and pretzels" is a funny term. Now, I'm not a huge fan of pretzels, but after a few beers I'm far more inclined to think "frak these stupid convoluted rules" and play something more simple.

Anyway, my gripe with the Tyranid codex isn't that you can't win with it or that it's underpowered. It's that it's unbalanced. Within itself, not just in the context of the rules as a whole, it is unbalanced. A good codex you should be able to play in a plethora of ways and as long as you balance your army, you are mostly fine. A bad codex you mess around with the internal imbalance of the codex to create a list you can win with. A terrible codex is one which is both unbalanced and you also can't win with. The tyranid codex isn't terrible, it's just bad.

Gazzor wrote:

In the meantime, I want a balanced, tactical game that forces me to use my mind in order to play succesfuly. After 10 beers, it is still what I want, homo sapiens is capable of strategising even when drunk.

You want Warmachine/ Hordes for that.

About 7/10 for balance (Vs. circa 2/10 for 40k). It's not perfect, but it's a rule set that's simple but also deeply tactical, if you select the more tactical armies.

Clarity of rules: 9.5/10 vs. 5/10. Pretty much every rules query on the forum is answered with "Look at page xx where it is all clearly explained." Any still unclear rules get clarified by members of PP staff within a day or so and may appear in their FAQ, updated every couple of months. GW's stopped doing any FAQ now? When they could be bothered that is...

Rules support: Mentioned above. Excellent rules help, great forum and timely rules answers. 9.5/10 vs. GW's 0/10 cos' they really couldn't give a t*ss.

Community Engagement. Weekly updates from PP on their latest products and sneak peeks and advance releases of units up to 12 months before official release in the latest update. Vs. GW's super secret no previews at all release schedule.

Updates: Every faction (Apart from one deliberately limited faction) gets updated every 12-18 months via newly released books. As mentioned above, balance isn't perfect but at least this way PP can attempt to patch the game, strengthening the weaker factions as required. Vs. GW's releases where stuff gets released and then forgotten for years. 10 years since the last Bretonnian book? 9/10 vs. 2/10.

For me it's 40k or nothing, if I stop playing that I'm out of TT gaming and just play on PC. I can't stand Warmachine warcraftish aesthetics, both art and models. If 40k at some point gets unplayable I'll just find or write a ruleset (example I saw 40k ported to Warmachine somewhere) for it and have a rare game here or there.

Gazzor wrote:
No point complaining about GW products cos they don't care. They've sold rubbish for years and they're still doing it. Vote with your wallet and try some other games. If not WM/H, then maybe Flames of War, Malifaux or infinity.

Infinity is passable look - wise (not even a bit exciting for me though) but it's too small scale. WWII there's million games on PC, the only period I could do on tabletop is cold war/ modern era maybe as I love models like T64s 72s 80s smerch Mi 24 Ka 50 etc. Challenger is no slouch either heh.

Ayway I'm going to continue to pay GW for plastics, those are exquisite.


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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
"Beer and pretzels" is a funny term. Now, I'm not a huge fan of pretzels, but after a few beers I'm far more inclined to think "frak these stupid convoluted rules" and play something more simple.

Exactly, Warhammer is no fun after a few beers just a chore thanks to 1000 USRs 100+ pages rulebook and multiple 100 pages codieces, even hardcore, mind burning boardgames are much better. The rules there are ussualy 10x simplier but they still give you tons of strategic options.

Naw wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Naw wrote:
Tyranid shooting went up by a large margin in a shooting edition, but even that isn't seen as positive, because the codex sucks?

There are positives, there are negatives, people are upset because to them the negatives severely outweigh the positives.

So the new codex plays differently, it is a learning process for all.

A large number of battle reports do not paint such a bleak picture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Tau is a frustration for everyone, not just Tyranids.

I'm sure lots of people are like me in that the power level of the codex is not the major issue I have with the codex, not even close.

my friend who collects tyranids tells me that the new codex is actually alright. I've not played against it yet but i look forward to it.

just a chore thanks to 1000 USRs 100+ pages rulebook

I really don't get this. All you have to do is read through the book a bunch of times to know the rules, and anything you don't remember you can look up in like 20 seconds if you know the book (less if you tab it for important things. It's not that complex. If you play this game, you should know the rules and know your codex. It's like how I don't get how people can't watch foreign movies with subtitles. It's not that hard.

It sure is a learning experience...

It would almost be like heavily relying on Cover for Tyranids was some sort of miracle plan only the pros knew... Now everyone knows to brings Venoms with the update, yet, still get stomped by Ignore Cover.... So where was the point of beefing up a mechanic for an army that assaults primarily, when the prevalent "Ignores Cover" mechanic cripples the notion of your army even mattering.....

I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.

Nothing that costs as much a 1500pts army can't be serious. I can't even imagine how someone who pre ordered nids foolishly , is feeling now . So much cash and the only way to have fun is to find people that play to lose or don't know how to play or those that promise that they will not try to attack nid synaps till turn 3-4.

Makumba wrote:

I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.

Nothing that costs as much a 1500pts army can't be serious. I can't even imagine how someone who pre ordered nids foolishly , is feeling now . So much cash and the only way to have fun is to find people that play to lose or don't know how to play or those that promise that they will not try to attack nid synaps till turn 3-4.

?
I pre ordered a few things, I don't feel bad about it. I was aware of everything of importance before it arrived, and had ample time to cancel or return if I wished.

Problem is, there is very little middle ground in these discussions, some users are undeniably just trolling (and I hate having to say as much) the codex at every opportunity. Like this, your saying I can only have fun against people who play to lose or don't know how to play (or compromise on tactics). The is very presumptuous of the power of the codex, the insinuation the only fun in 40k is winning, and suggesting you know everyones skill level. The middle ground which few are sitting in accept and are unhappy with many changes in the codex, but do not push it to such lengths. Some people have legitimate dislikes, some people have legitimate likes, and both are caught up in between the whitest knight and the ugliest troll.


Of course people will push the highlights when there's so much distortion in the backlash from the codex release.

Are some things bad? Yes
Are some things good? Yes
Does everyone like the codex? No
Does everyone hate the codex? No

Should be getting a game in this week with my Eldar against my brothers Nids. We both played lots of 5th edition with these armies, but have yet to have a game of 6th, or with our new codexs. Will be interesting to see how they fair!

I like hte OP's attitude.

Less whining and more "Let's make this work".

 beigeknight wrote:
It's like how I don't get how people can't watch foreign movies with subtitles. It's not that hard.

Another thing I tend not to do while pissed.

Makumba wrote:

I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.

Nothing that costs as much a 1500pts army can't be serious. I can't even imagine how someone who pre ordered nids foolishly , is feeling now . So much cash and the only way to have fun is to find people that play to lose or don't know how to play or those that promise that they will not try to attack nid synaps till turn 3-4.

We already know that you play in what must be the only all-WAAC league on the planet. Your gaming experience, as you have described on these forums, is so outside of the norm of just about every other player on the planet that I don't even know where to begin. 1500 points in models is, comparative to a lot of other hobbies, not that expensive. Want to get expensive? Take up skiiing. Cross-country hiking. Hunting. Snowboarding. Water-skiing (boats ain't cheap!). 40K is only expensive for a modelling and figures hobby, it's not, comparatively, that much compared to many other hobbies.

Look at the Super Bowl, nosebleed-seats tickets are now $2500 a pop. That's one game. One time. In the worst seats imaginable. And yet, some sports fans (and let's make no mistake, being a sports fan is as much a hobby as anything else) are going to pay that to go to the game to say they were there.

Mostly, though, if you are treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, then you're doing it wrong.

Nope, I've played in multiple play groups that were all "WAAC" all the time. I find it amazing that so many play in such uncompetitive groups.

I'm not entirely sure what all the complaining is about to be honest. I suppose if the book isn't what you were expecting you could be upset, but judging from how they actually play, there are a lot of extreme overreactions.

I have personally played against, watched half a dozen battle reports, and read through a lot of posts/reviews/the book itself.

Is it a top tier book capable of dethroning the competitive waac lists? No. But how many books/lists are capable of that anyway?

Yes, it gives the impression of overall laziness and not a ton of innovation, but the changes themselves and how they translate on the tabletop are largely a nonissue.

All of the examples I have seen, when not faced with the best 40k armies have to offer, show the Nids doing quite well.

One of the most common criticisms I see deal with the seemingly 'random' adjustment to points, etc. What people fail to realize is that a lot of stuff in the book decreased in points. Nid armies are already larger for the average game. What can be perceived as seemingly random nerfs/adjustments to things from 5th edition may have been taken into consideration with the rest of the point shifts.

GW certainly doesn't have the best track record with their rules writing, but it is too much of a crutch to see anything in a codex that has changed and immediately throw tantrums because you have to adapt and change how you play/what lists you take. It's always been this way folks.

 Psienesis wrote:

Makumba wrote:

I see a lot of people treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, but not refuting the idea that the game is meant to be played with whatever models you got, throw 'em on the table, throw some dice, drink beer, have some larfs, and play the game.

Nothing that costs as much a 1500pts army can't be serious. I can't even imagine how someone who pre ordered nids foolishly , is feeling now . So much cash and the only way to have fun is to find people that play to lose or don't know how to play or those that promise that they will not try to attack nid synaps till turn 3-4.

We already know that you play in what must be the only all-WAAC league on the planet. Your gaming experience, as you have described on these forums, is so outside of the norm of just about every other player on the planet that I don't even know where to begin. 1500 points in models is, comparative to a lot of other hobbies, not that expensive. Want to get expensive? Take up skiiing. Cross-country hiking. Hunting. Snowboarding. Water-skiing (boats ain't cheap!). 40K is only expensive for a modelling and figures hobby, it's not, comparatively, that much compared to many other hobbies.

Look at the Super Bowl, nosebleed-seats tickets are now $2500 a pop. That's one game. One time. In the worst seats imaginable. And yet, some sports fans (and let's make no mistake, being a sports fan is as much a hobby as anything else) are going to pay that to go to the game to say they were there.

Mostly, though, if you are treating a game of WarDollies as SrsBzns, then you're doing it wrong.

Try shooting. There's an expensive hobby. For me, 40k is what I do when I can't afford the big toys.

I listed hunting, as it generally involves either guns or bows, but yeah, sport shooting is in the same boat. Freakin' expensive!

 Psienesis wrote:
I listed hunting, as it generally involves either guns or bows, but yeah, sport shooting is in the same boat. Freakin' expensive!

Thanks a lot Obama!

Yes yes, 40k is relatively inexpensive compared to deep space mining.

But can't we just compare it to the "beer and pretzels" types of games, which we were comparing it to when we commented on the cost of the hobby.


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XenosTerminus wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what all the complaining is about to be honest.

I suppose if the book isn't what you were expecting you could be upset

I have personally... read through a lot of posts/reviews

Yes, it gives the impression of overall laziness and not a ton of innovation

One of the most common criticisms I see deal with the seemingly 'random' adjustment to points

GW certainly doesn't have the best track record with their rules writing

If you read through the posts and reviews, you'll notice that you already commented on the reasons why people are complaining.
As to the point costs, things overall went down but some things got overall nerfs along with it. I'm not a Nid player, nor do I have much experience with them. However I have read all the detailed explanations on why many of the point changes are unjustified/bad compared to the current meta and previous edition.

Also Biomancy. That's another thing people complain about.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Yes yes, 40k is relatively inexpensive compared to deep space mining.

But can't we just compare it to the "beer and pretzels" types of games, which we were comparing it to when we commented on the cost of the hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

XenosTerminus wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what all the complaining is about to be honest.

I suppose if the book isn't what you were expecting you could be upset

I have personally... read through a lot of posts/reviews

Yes, it gives the impression of overall laziness and not a ton of innovation

One of the most common criticisms I see deal with the seemingly 'random' adjustment to points

GW certainly doesn't have the best track record with their rules writing

If you read through the posts and reviews, you'll notice that you already commented on the reasons why people are complaining.
As to the point costs, things overall went down but some things got overall nerfs along with it. I'm not a Nid player, nor do I have much experience with them. However I have read all the detailed explanations on why many of the point changes are unjustified/bad compared to the current meta and previous edition.

Also Biomancy. That's another thing people complain about.

I admit on paper it looks bad, but it plays fine against non-competitive lists. Hell, almost everything does. That doesn't mean some of the decisions GW makes with balancing and units is flawless, just that it's not as big of an issue as many people think it is.

Biomancy was one of the few things Nids did well- but that wasn't Nids. That was buffing an army based on tricks via spamming psychic powers.

Go watch battle reports or read some. The games don't play out like the codex is complete garbage. A disappointment, maybe, but certainly not warranting all of the hate.

I think people just need to complain. About everything.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I listed hunting, as it generally involves either guns or bows, but yeah, sport shooting is in the same boat. Freakin' expensive!

Thanks a lot Obama!

Nah. I've been involved in hunting and/or fire-arm ownership for 25 years now. Guns have always been expensive.

What Obama did was... well, no, he did nothing. What people thought he was going to do, based on absolute fabrications, was ban certain kinds of bullets, which caused people to run out and buy those bullets in bulk, which reduced the supply, which drove prices through the roof.

most hobbies cost nothing actually, or next to nothing.

try taking walks, drawing, writing, jogging, playing cards, reading, playing with your kids, swiming or all sorts of other stuff.

 Psienesis wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I listed hunting, as it generally involves either guns or bows, but yeah, sport shooting is in the same boat. Freakin' expensive!

Thanks a lot Obama!

Nah. I've been involved in hunting and/or fire-arm ownership for 25 years now. Guns have always been expensive.

What Obama did was... well, no, he did nothing. What people thought he was going to do, based on absolute fabrications, was ban certain kinds of bullets, which caused people to run out and buy those bullets in bulk, which reduced the supply, which drove prices through the roof.

Pretty great isn't it?

I haven't seen any .22 ammunition in my city for almost a year. There is an abundance of the vast majority of higher caliber ammunition, but the prices on most of that stuff is revolting. Hell, you can buy a box of minis for the price of a small box of most types of ammo these days.

Good stuff.


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 fartherthanfar wrote:
most hobbies cost nothing actually, or next to nothing.

try taking walks, drawing, writing, jogging, playing cards, reading, playing with your kids, swiming or all sorts of other stuff.

Yes but how can I exert my authority over others and prove my opinion as fact/argue over the internet with those activities?

 fartherthanfar wrote:
most hobbies cost nothing actually, or next to nothing.

try taking walks, drawing, writing, jogging, playing cards, reading, playing with your kids, swiming or all sorts of other stuff.

Playing with your kids isn't a hobby, it's a requirement of being a decent parent.
Drawing, especially if you are going to take a stab at being good at it, is going to cost you a fair bit in pencils, pens, inks, etc. Or, if you want to go digital, a Wacom tablet. Not exactly cheap.
Walking? If you want to do it the right way (ie, not hurt yourself) you're going to want shoes that provide you the support your feet need, and that are comfortable. Those tend to cost a bit, too.
Playing cards is cheap because cards are cheap. That is, as long as you don't play cards for money as a hobby. That can get expensive.
Swimming is not cheap if you don't have access to a free swimming pool. Having your own installed is thousands of dollars.

But you know what? You can play 40K for nothing or next-to-nothing as well. The price of the models does not, in any way, impact how serious one should take the game. There are all sorts of methods to get cheap-or-free 40K models and books.

XenosTerminus wrote:

Go watch battle reports or read some. The games don't play out like the codex is complete garbage. A disappointment, maybe, but certainly not warranting all of the hate.

I have seen a lot of the ones with Reesius. Most notably was the one against Tau in Hammer and Anvil where the entire time the Nids basically hid because they couldn't close the distance. The problem with the competitive vs non-competitive mindset is that non-competitive players don't care that competitive players are having a very uphill battle. It's not just a problem with Nids, nor just with Tau and Eldar. The rules are sloppy and poorly balanced internally and externally, at best. This isn't something that should be defended. It honestly needs improvement and it should not be frowned upon to expect more from a company that is charging a premium for their product.

I think people just need to complain. About everything.

Like how people complain about complaints.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

Go watch battle reports or read some. The games don't play out like the codex is complete garbage. A disappointment, maybe, but certainly not warranting all of the hate.

I have seen a lot of the ones with Reesius. Most notably was the one against Tau in Hammer and Anvil where the entire time the Nids basically hid because they couldn't close the distance. The problem with the competitive vs non-competitive mindset is that non-competitive players don't care that competitive players are having a very uphill battle. It's not just a problem with Nids, nor just with Tau and Eldar. The rules are sloppy and poorly balanced internally and externally, at best. This isn't something that should be defended. It honestly needs improvement and it should not be frowned upon to expect more from a company that is charging a premium for their product.

I think people just need to complain. About everything.

Like how people complain about complaints.

Right. There is and always will be a divide over the competetive/non-competetive players. While everyone would benefit if the rules were tighter and more balanced, they aren't. I have said this before and will continue to repeat it come the apocalypse: 40k is not the game for you if you analyze every release strictly from a competitive perspective. It doesn't matter who is to blame, it is a simple fact 40k is not and will likely never be balanced for this type of play.

The comment that inevitably surfaces whenever someone points out people incessantly complain (especially online) that 'you are complaining about complainer's' is laughable at best. There are drastic differences between pointing out people are overly negative. It's not like people randomly start threads with topics such as 'people on here complain too much' or 'there are too many complaints about X'. No. People comment within threads that rapidly devolve into activists of their respective 'playerbase' slinging insults at eachother and digging their heels in the dirt.