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 Psienesis wrote:


I have never said differently that the rules of 40K are not a terrible mess.

What I am saying, however, is that people are getting too jimmy-rustled over this fact, and seem to think that bitching about it on a forum or, worse, telling a player who is having fun with those messy rules that they are wrong for having fun with those rules is somehow effective, or appropriate.

I am also saying if you don't like the rules, fine, you can not like the rules, that's totally fine... but don't piss in someone else's wheaties if they *are* having fun with the rules. That just makes you an ass.

Right, well I guess this thread was a prime target for such responses, though I do normally keep my jimmy-rustling and wheatie pissing for the threads dedicated to GW rules discussions.

Glad I got this cleared up.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.

Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.

It's too complicated for beer and pretzels. 7 Wonders is a beer and pretzels game. Hell, I play Starcraft drunk off my butt. I can't even GET to the game store drunk.

possibly 9 rulebooks for one list, 2 FAQs, 1 dataslate, thousands invested in models, and countless hours spent modeling and painting = Just pick it up and play with your friends for giggles.

GW logic everyone!

 Psienesis wrote:


I have never said differently that the rules of 40K are not a terrible mess.

What I am saying, however, is that people are getting too jimmy-rustled over this fact, and seem to think that bitching about it on a forum or, worse, telling a player who is having fun with those messy rules that they are wrong for having fun with those rules is somehow effective, or appropriate.

I am also saying if you don't like the rules, fine, you can not like the rules, that's totally fine... but don't piss in someone else's wheaties if they *are* having fun with the rules. That just makes you an ass.

Find one person who has said "You are wrong for having fun." Stop with these strawman.

People are saying "We shouldn't have a ruleset with so many holes in it." Bitching about it on forums is all we can do until GW listens. So stop telling people they can't complain about it.

 Kain wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

After all, if the army with the best codex always wins, the Germans would have won WWII and the Americans Vietnam.

The Germans lost because the economic deck was stacked ridiculously against them (America alone outproduced the entire Axis) and attrition soon robbed Germany of any skilled soldiers or supplies to keep their army in tip top shape. The allies could produce far more materiel that was technologically equivalent and had effectively limitless manpower. Also, the Germans couldn't have even defeated Britain, they had no hope of defeating the royal navy and without the royal navy out of the way, Britain was uninvadable.

I'm not really an expert on vietnam so I'll leave it to someone else to explain to you why this is a dumb comparison.

The Germans weren't even the army. Only the best army in a few ways. Their airplanes, for example, had crap range which plagued them in Russia.

Martel732 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.

Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.

It's too complicated for beer and pretzels. 7 Wonders is a beer and pretzels game. Hell, I play Starcraft drunk off my butt. I can't even GET to the game store drunk.

Simple solution: Get drunk *at* the store. There are many, many flasks of various designs and configurations available from a large number of retailers around the world.

Or invite your friends over for 40K and Jameson. Your call. You know, whatever's easier. Whatever floats your goat.

 GreyHamster wrote:
Against noncompetitive lists, victories are not an indication of a strong codex or skillful play.

So if I'm playing a game in a format for which it was originally designed (garage or home games) and winning with units and a codex that people consider to be bad, are they still bad? I say no. You cannot base a units worth or usefulness based on competitive play alone. But by all means keep saying they are bad. As I stated before, it's only doing me a favor.

HiveGuard wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Against noncompetitive lists, victories are not an indication of a strong codex or skillful play.

So if I'm playing a game in a format for which it was originally designed (garage or home games) and winning with units and a codex that people consider to be bad, are they still bad? I say no. You cannot base a units worth or usefulness based on competitive play alone. But by all means keep saying they are bad. As I stated before, it's only doing me a favor.

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

JPong wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:


I have never said differently that the rules of 40K are not a terrible mess.

What I am saying, however, is that people are getting too jimmy-rustled over this fact, and seem to think that bitching about it on a forum or, worse, telling a player who is having fun with those messy rules that they are wrong for having fun with those rules is somehow effective, or appropriate.

I am also saying if you don't like the rules, fine, you can not like the rules, that's totally fine... but don't piss in someone else's wheaties if they *are* having fun with the rules. That just makes you an ass.

Find one person who has said "You are wrong for having fun." Stop with these strawman.

People are saying "We shouldn't have a ruleset with so many holes in it." Bitching about it on forums is all we can do until GW listens. So stop telling people they can't complain about it.

GW doesn't read these forums. Bitching here will not get GW to hear you. I would suggest using GW's email address.

The thread in which someone says "say what you will about the Tyranid Codex, I'm having fun with it against my friends" is not the thread to bitch about the Tyranid Codex. Or any Codex. In fact, immediately following the OP, the first comment was a sarcastic "Great" and then a statement that the Tyranid Codex is "objectively terrible". If you don't understand what "objectively" means, then I can see why you don't see that as someone telling someone that they're doing it wrong by having fun with it. "Objectively terrible" means that it is terrible from any point of view, outside observation, free of any emotion or bias. If something is objectively terrible, that implies that it should be impossible, literally impossible, to have any fun with it at all.

This is the thread to tell the OP congrats for having fun with his/her mates and kicking ass with the new Tyranids in his/her local games. You want to bitch about the Tyranid Codex? That thread is down the page a bit.

Me? I'm trying to convince my friend to buy the new Tyranid Codex, as he owns about eighty million bugs, and I have about 1800 points of Sisters. I wanna see how things go in a close-range firefight/slugfest.

Hi! My name is WW and I IC... So say goodbye to all your cover saves and cover save-incurring models!

Hi! My name is Noise Marine, and I'm over-costed, but with each passing Dex, I find more and more units that rely on Cover Saves, So I have been seeing more and more games!

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Aren't Warmachine/Warmahorde models pre-assembled and pre-painted? Isn't a PDF of the rules provided for free with the purchase of a box of figs?

Nope and not at all.

Also, it is worth mentioning that a massive part of the "new" Warmahordes players are actually former 40k/Fantasy players and not fresh faces. They are simply switching game systemy because Warmahordes has a good ruleset while 40k has grown quite sh*tty.

To be honest 40k has always had bad rules

 Psienesis wrote:
GW doesn't read these forums. Bitching here will not get GW to hear you. I would suggest using GW's email address.

And bitching about it here affects their bottom line. They don't want people googling "New Tyranid Codex" and having it come up with a bunch of threads about how bad it is. You would also be kidding yourself to think GW doesn't occasionally browse the interwebs. Especially for popular sites.

 Psienesis wrote:
The thread in which someone says "say what you will about the Tyranid Codex, I'm having fun with it against my friends" is not the thread to bitch about the Tyranid Codex. Or any Codex.

Free forum and all that. It is on topic.

 Psienesis wrote:
In fact, immediately following the OP, the first comment was a sarcastic "Great" and then a statement that the Tyranid Codex is "objectively terrible". If you don't understand what "objectively" means, then I can see why you don't see that as someone telling someone that they're doing it wrong by having fun with it. "Objectively terrible" means that it is terrible from any point of view, outside observation, free of any emotion or bias. If something is objectively terrible, that implies that it should be impossible, literally impossible, to have any fun with it at all.

I know what objectively means. What it doesn't mean, is that no one can have fun with the codex. What it doesn't mean, is that the codex can't win games. What it does mean, is it is worse than every other codex out there.

 Psienesis wrote:
This is the thread to tell the OP congrats for having fun with his/her mates and kicking ass with the new Tyranids in his/her local games. You want to bitch about the Tyranid Codex? That thread is down the page a bit.

Given that the OP started out by attacking the people that don't like the codex, he shouldn't be surprised to be attacked back.

 Psienesis wrote:
Me? I'm trying to convince my friend to buy the new Tyranid Codex, as he owns about eighty million bugs, and I have about 1800 points of Sisters. I wanna see how things go in a close-range firefight/slugfest.

He could just as easily be swayed not to waste money.

If 40k is a beer and pretzels game, for what it costs the beer should be served by the St. Pauli girl.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
possibly 9 rulebooks for one list, 2 FAQs, 1 dataslate, thousands invested in models, and countless hours spent modeling and painting = Just pick it up and play with your friends for giggles.

GW logic everyone!

Beer and Pretzel games are Beer and Pretzel games because they're simple. There are far too many rules in 40k, and far too much work behind the building of an army (and the setting up of a single game) to ever qualify as a beer and pretzel game. You'll roll more dice in a single shooting phase than many beer and pretzel games will have you roll in a whole evening.

Of course, GW not knowing what a Beer and Pretzel game is and thinking their product qualifies that might explain a few things.

HiveGuard wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Against noncompetitive lists, victories are not an indication of a strong codex or skillful play.

So if I'm playing a game in a format for which it was originally designed (garage or home games) and winning with units and a codex that people consider to be bad, are they still bad? I say no. You cannot base a units worth or usefulness based on competitive play alone. But by all means keep saying they are bad. As I stated before, it's only doing me a favor.

No. I can win with Thousand Sons, but that doesn't actually make them good. I can get lucky and have Pyrovores actually kill more than they cost, that doesn't make them good. Here's the thing, if you are having fun with it, cool. If you are winning with it, cool. Are the negative reactions a bit too much and there's probably a list or two for competitives that whilst not taudar or seerstar or screamerstar level good are still a pretty decent option? Yeah there probably will be. Have you ever heard of Blazblue? Well, for a while, I played a guy named Tager in it. At that time, he was in the bottom tier. I could beat my friends with him. I've won in the unbalanced mess that is Super Smash Bros melee (the wii one. Mabe it is brawl?) with Ganondorf whom is the worst champion in it even against Metaknight. Does that make them good? No! They are still sub par players just as in 40k Thousand Sons are sub par. In casuals, it doesn't mean as much because your enemy is probably going to be taking something sub par as well but the playing fields isn't even here either. I person playing a CSM only Tzeentchian army is probably going to lose a vast majority of their games even at this level and if your foe isn't as good at the game as you, you can promptly curb stomp him with almost anything. Eldar? Time to beat you with heldrake-less, bikerless, plaguemarineless armies! But that doesn't mean that the CSM codex is any good. Play casually and have fun because if you are having fun who cares but just because something succeeds for you doesn't mean that objectively those units are any good (I'll still wait for Nids to determine them overall. I'm overly cynical and can't really see anything big but who knows maybe a dataslate will be a surprise)


Also, I've watched some films that are objectively terrible but loved them for how bad they are or something else

Everyone complaining about the people complaining have missed the point to a degree that astounds me... We're not complaining about the new Tyranids power level, we're complaining that the book had units taken out of it, had little to no new fluff added, was a pathetic copy paste job of the last terrible codex and did not fix the internal balance of the codex at all.

Yes this codex has the power to win games and you can tell us all how great you're by doing so but don't say this is s good piece of literature.

I initially felt really bad for my brother when the Nid codex dropped, it looked miserable. Then I partook in a 500 pt tournament at a flgs while there was a 2500 pt tourney going on simultaneously. During some down times, I got to watch some nids play at 2500 pt and it always seemed that they did decently right up to turn 3, and then their opponent would successfully wipe out most if not all of the synapse on the board and then suddenly the nid player would be all sorts of SOL. In the 500 pt tourney, I faced a couple nid players and tended to be the same: take out synapse, watch part if not all of the rest of the army get screwed by instinctive behavior, mop up. Felt bad for one guy I went up against, a unit of 30(probably less, it was just one sizeable clusterfeth) hormagaunts cannibalized themselves into oblivion.

So I still feel bad for my bro, but not as much. Regeneration scares/annoys the gak out of me.

 Zande4 wrote:
Everyone complaining about the people complaining have missed the point to a degree that astounds me... We're not complaining about the new Tyranids power level, we're complaining that the book had units taken out of it, had little to no new fluff added, was a pathetic copy paste job of the last terrible codex and did not fix the internal balance of the codex at all.

Yes this codex has the power to win games and you can tell us all how great you're by doing so but don't say this is s good piece of literature.

I don't think anyone is trying to compare a Codex to literature. Vonnegut or Steinbeck, this ain't.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
Everyone complaining about the people complaining have missed the point to a degree that astounds me... We're not complaining about the new Tyranids power level, we're complaining that the book had units taken out of it, had little to no new fluff added, was a pathetic copy paste job of the last terrible codex and did not fix the internal balance of the codex at all.

Yes this codex has the power to win games and you can tell us all how great you're by doing so but don't say this is s good piece of literature.

I don't think anyone is trying to compare a Codex to literature. Vonnegut or Steinbeck, this ain't.

As a codex, the new book is an incredibly lazy copy pasta job that alleviated...precisely none of the problems raised with the old book and introduced some new ones.

To this observer it seems that people are disappointed because the Tyranid Codex is not up there with Tau and Eldar. Nevermind that they beat every other codex.

I haven't played against the new Nids, but it sounds like Eldar S6/7 36' firepower is going to be huge problem for their synapse creatures. Maybe the Nids can make Jetseer councils fail some spells. Maybe. It doesn't sound like a good codex to me. It might even be below C:SM, which would be a first for Xeno codices in 6th.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.

Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.

A beer and pretzels game aimed at customers who are not allowed to drink yet. Yep, I can see where it all went wrong

Naw wrote:
To this observer it seems that people are disappointed because the Tyranid Codex is not up there with Tau and Eldar. Nevermind that they beat every other codex.

This book is inferior to...pretty much all the sixth edition books, still iffy against the Necrons who are overall still high tier, and overall is about as competitive as the Ork book. Anyone who tells you it's objectively better than the Necron, Marine or Daemons book is straight out lying to you.

And the Ork book is older than my children.

What GW should do is make every new codex to the standards of Taudar and every unit to the standards of Riptides and Wave Serpents. Because there's no other way to save the game's balance now besides a reset.

 Antario wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.

Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.

A beer and pretzels game aimed at customers who are not allowed to drink yet. Yep, I can see where it all went wrong

Drinking age in England is 16, isn't it?

Naw wrote:
To this observer it seems that people are disappointed because the Tyranid Codex is not up there with Tau and Eldar. Nevermind that they beat every other codex.

I haven't noticed that be the biggest problem. I've seen rage primarily that there is one bit of odd extra fluff, ymgarl, spores, doom, and something were removed, they made pyrovores WORSE as well as rippers, removed additional options, and didn't answer the problems people had with the previous Nid codex. Yes there are people that wish they were on tau, Eldar, and even daemon levels but that isn't what I have seen brought the most rage. Oh, and what does that mean Nids beat? They lose to daemons, tau, and Eldar. DE can still stomp them, Necrons probably still can. Discounting old and out of date codices, the only thing they will or might beat are CSM, DA, and SoB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naw wrote:
To this observer it seems that people are disappointed because the Tyranid Codex is not up there with Tau and Eldar. Nevermind that they beat every other codex.

I haven't noticed that be the biggest problem. I've seen rage primarily that there is one bit of odd extra fluff, ymgarl, spores, doom, and something were removed, they made pyrovores WORSE as well as rippers, removed additional options, and didn't answer the problems people had with the previous Nid codex. Yes there are people that wish they were on tau, Eldar, and even daemon levels but that isn't what I have seen brought the most rage. Oh, and what does that mean Nids beat? They lose to daemons, tau, and Eldar. DE can still stomp them, Necrons probably still can. Discounting old and out of date codices, the only thing they will or might beat are CSM, DA, and SoB (in terms of overall balance and effectiveness maybe)

fyi, winning in spite of your own codex based purely on experience doesn't mean the codex is good. Codex shouldn't be a natural handicap.

I prefer a toned down and balanced codex than the Tau and Eldar cheese and codex creep. They are the only "unbalanced" codexes in 6th (of course, re-rollable 2++ is chees as well, but interceptor on the riptide for +5 pts is completely ludicrus..)

In 5th, every new codex was way better than the last.

spartiatis wrote:
I prefer a toned down and balanced codex than the Tau and Eldar cheese and codex creep. They are the only "unbalanced" codexes in 6th (of course, re-rollable 2++ is chees as well, but interceptor on the riptide for +5 pts is completely ludicrus..)

In 5th, every new codex was way better than the last.

If every codex is over the top and overpowered, then no codex is.

spartiatis wrote:
I prefer a toned down and balanced codex than the Tau and Eldar cheese and codex creep. They are the only "unbalanced" codexes in 6th (of course, re-rollable 2++ is chees as well, but interceptor on the riptide for +5 pts is completely ludicrus..)

In 5th, every new codex was way better than the last.

Not true at all. The BA were NOT better than IG or SW. That's one example.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Antario wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a beer-and-pretzels game, folks. Are you and your mates getting together, having a good time, throwing some dice and moving little plastic soldiers around on a table? Yes? Having fun? Good. Mission accomplished.

Anything outside of this experience is a bonus.

A beer and pretzels game aimed at customers who are not allowed to drink yet. Yep, I can see where it all went wrong

Drinking age in England is 16, isn't it?

It's 18 to purchase I think, while allowed at 16 when on private property of something. Need to ask a Brit to be sure.