Most powerful special rule?

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**ductvader**

Silverthorne wrote:
ductvader wrote:
Silverthorne wrote:
Sustained Assault from 3rd ed Barroah rules. Basically the same as a furiosos talon rule but a special rule and not wargear. I can't remember if anyone else has had that rule since.

One of the SW characters has a number of bonus attacks that equals the number of models he killed in the last round of combat.

Is that close? I saw him work his way up to 20something versus orks...it was...my favorite 40k moment ever.

Oh yeah saga of the warrior born? Something like that. Very close but not the same. Sustained Assault you could add another to hit roll for every hit you landed. And the bonus hits could Also generate hits. It took forever to roll out.

Dang, Old One Eye also does it, but only once...every CC hit he gets generates one more attack each. He can have 3 S10 HoW hits, 10 S10 Attacks, and I believe he's got a S8 tail attack but I'm not sure on that.

**Martel732**

Blacksails wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

You keep talking about marines while most of us are talking about the rule.

ATSKNF is a powerful rule. Ignore Cover is powerful too, but imagine if only lasguns could take it. Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

I'm with Breng on this: I'd still rather have ignore cover army wide than ATSKNF army wide.

**Blacksails**

Martel732 wrote:

I'm with Breng on this: I'd still rather have ignore cover army wide than ATSKNF army wide.

And I'd rather have both.

Point is, ATSKNF is still a powerful rule. I'm on the fence which one I'd rather have army wide, but I'm not denying that I wouldn't want ATSKNF for my blob guard without a character tax.

**herpguy**

SM players seem to not be able to wrap their heads around why CSM are so crappy when I try to explain how game changing ATSKNF is.

**ZebioLizard2**

Blacksails wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

You keep talking about marines while most of us are talking about the rule.

ATSKNF is a powerful rule. Ignore Cover is powerful too, but imagine if only lasguns could take it. Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

Is it? FNP has been mentioned, but it's terrible on a unit like Repentia vs someone like a 30 strong unit of tyranids.

If you ignore what units things are on, then you have no real basis of understanding how useful the rule actually is.

Which is partly my point, I just didn't go into enough detail. FnP gets a lot better on things like Riptides, or units with re-rollable invulns already. ATSKNF is still a great rule, even on marines, they're just a little lower on the power scale than Eldar and Tau (but are otherwise fine). However, ATSKNF is a very powerful rule on large blobs of durable infantry, or on CC oriented models, or on models that are weak in CC and don't want to swept.

Same goes for ignore cover. Ignore cover on lasguns is mediocre at best, but awesome on a Baleflamer.

I should specify that judging a rule based on the contents of the power level of the codex its predominantly found in (ATSKNF for marines) is not a good yardstick for determining the strength of the rule.

Problem is, that's not really the judging by which we are judging it by, considering the first posts thoughts on it based on unit.

**A GumyBear**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
A GumyBear wrote:
Wow I'm suprised I was the only one so far to say Psyker for most powerful USR, I know ignores cover can be a real pain but it doesn't really matter vs a rerollable 2++

Um, Psyker has nothing to do with the rerollable 2++.

The rerollable 2++ is an artifact combined with the Daemon and Daemon of Tzeentch rules. Nothing to do with Psyker powers.

And Divination to give them a 4++. Daemon of Tzeentch doesn't give better saves, it just lets you reroll 1's.

Well there is also the seer coucil with the rerollable shenanigans

**ductvader**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

You keep talking about marines while most of us are talking about the rule.

ATSKNF is a powerful rule. Ignore Cover is powerful too, but imagine if only lasguns could take it. Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

Is it? FNP has been mentioned, but it's terrible on a unit like Repentia vs someone like a 30 strong unit of tyranids.

If you ignore what units things are on, then you have no real basis of understanding how useful the rule actually is.

Which is partly my point, I just didn't go into enough detail. FnP gets a lot better on things like Riptides, or units with re-rollable invulns already. ATSKNF is still a great rule, even on marines, they're just a little lower on the power scale than Eldar and Tau (but are otherwise fine). However, ATSKNF is a very powerful rule on large blobs of durable infantry, or on CC oriented models, or on models that are weak in CC and don't want to swept.

Same goes for ignore cover. Ignore cover on lasguns is mediocre at best, but awesome on a Baleflamer.

I should specify that judging a rule based on the contents of the power level of the codex its predominantly found in (ATSKNF for marines) is not a good yardstick for determining the strength of the rule.

Problem is, that's not really the judging by which we are judging it by, considering the first posts thoughts on it based on unit.

Martel later wrote that they hadn't considered just viewing the rule instead of the unit with the rule.

**Martel732**

herpguy wrote:
SM players seem to not be able to wrap their heads around why CSM are so crappy when I try to explain how game changing ATSKNF is.

I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF and never missed it honestly. My marines are DYING not RUNNING or BEING SWEPT. DYING. Let me repeat again: DYING. Not rolling morale. CSM are EXACTLY in the same boat as C:SM. C:SM has slightly more competitive units, but at the end of the day, it's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

**welshhoppo**

Martel732 wrote:
herpguy wrote:
SM players seem to not be able to wrap their heads around why CSM are so crappy when I try to explain how game changing ATSKNF is.

I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF and never missed it honestly. My marines are DYING not RUNNING or BEING SWEPT. DYING. Let me repeat again: DYING. Not rolling morale. CSM are EXACTLY in the same boat as C:SM. C:SM has slightly more competitive units, but at the end of the day, it's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Well if they rearranged those deck chairs so they were at the stern of the ship, there is a good chance that Jack would not have died.

You don't realise how often you have to take morale tests, until you lose ATSKHF. Oh you have eight men. I killed two. Oh look you rolled boxcars, off the table you go! At least this happens to me, once one of my units is running, they barely come back :(

**Martel732**

welshhoppo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
herpguy wrote:
SM players seem to not be able to wrap their heads around why CSM are so crappy when I try to explain how game changing ATSKNF is.

I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF and never missed it honestly. My marines are DYING not RUNNING or BEING SWEPT. DYING. Let me repeat again: DYING. Not rolling morale. CSM are EXACTLY in the same boat as C:SM. C:SM has slightly more competitive units, but at the end of the day, it's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Well if they rearranged those deck chairs so they were at the stern of the ship, there is a good chance that Jack would not have died.

You don't realise how often you have to take morale tests, until you lose ATSKHF. Oh you have eight men. I killed two. Oh look you rolled boxcars, off the table you go! At least this happens to me, once one of my units is running, they barely come back :(

My units are usually never so close to the table edge. And 6th ed has made rallying very forgiving. And, yeah, I do realize how often I make them. It's actually a small minute advantage that BA still have is I'm always rolling a 9 LD and most C:SM lists are now rolling 8 LD. I'm forced to pay for LD, and can't skimp out. Marines aren't immune to pinning, which is usually the only LD roll I care about.

**Breng77**

The way I look at it is this. If you told me I could swap ATSKNF for Ignores cover on all my SM units (even if you limit it just to units with ATSKNF) I would do it.

Devestators with ignores cover plasma cannons
Dev Centurions or Grav bikers with Ignores cover, S6 thunderfire ignoring cover, etc.

The big difference is that some armies rely on cover for durabilty, few armies rely on forcing their opponent to break and run for offensive ability (perhaps in part due to ATSKNF)

**ductvader**

Regardless, Independent Character already wins in my book.

Imagine every model having that...now we've got Carnifex/Trygon Broods, We've got the Vindicare sitting with henchmen, Look at Crowe and Mephiston! Look at Guard blobs unforming and reforming into new squads at will.

IC wins.

**Voidwraith**

Blacksails wrote:
Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

Maybe that's what your discussion is. I'm having the "this rule is breaking the game IN THE REAL WORLD because of the way it CAN be applied by the codecies in the current rule-set" conversation. Ignores cover is the undisputed champion of that discussion.

Joining the fairy-tale "what-if" discussion, I'd throw the DAEMON special rule out there for consideration. 5+ invuls on top of whatever your normal armor save would be...I think we're done here.

**ZebioLizard2**

ductvader wrote:
Regardless, Independent Character already wins in my book.

Imagine every model having that...now we've got Carnifex/Trygon Broods, We've got the Vindicare sitting with henchmen, Look at Crowe and Mephiston! Look at Guard blobs unforming and reforming into new squads at will.

IC wins.

Ha, that's what helped killed Masque for Chaos Daemons.

**Breng77**

Masque wasn't an IC in the last book either...but IC would be OK, but I don't think it would be a broken as people think.

**ahzek**

I think it's intercepted, skyfire.

I know that's 2 but as they're so often combined it might as well be one, and it just means death for so many flyers before they get to do anything

**ductvader**

Breng77 wrote:
Masque wasn't an IC in the last book either...but IC would be OK, but I don't think it would be a broken as people think.

IC becomes as strong as your imagination...I could take 4 Astral Aiming Purgators, a single Warp Quaking Striker and drop them into a GK Paladin squad.

If you've ever played kill team, you know how strong some units can be once they get to be their own models...hormagaunts would run as solo units and ignore IB 1-3 rolls...which would be the perfect way to negate markerlights as they'd lose most of their ignores cover effectiveness as they can't ignore cover on 30 separate models.

**AlmightyWalrus**

ductvader wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
Masque wasn't an IC in the last book either...but IC would be OK, but I don't think it would be a broken as people think.

IC becomes as strong as your imagination...I could take 4 Astral Aiming Purgators, a single Warp Quaking Striker and drop them into a GK Paladin squad.

If you've ever played kill team, you know how strong some units can be once they get to be their own models...hormagaunts would run as solo units and ignore IB 1-3 rolls...which would be the perfect way to negate markerlights as they'd lose most of their ignores cover effectiveness as they can't ignore cover on 30 separate models.

But they'd be able to take IC Riptides and...

Oh, wait.

**Breng77**

So you are, allowing units to completely break down...if you allow that then it is very powerful.

**Mahtamori**

Silverthorne wrote:
ductvader wrote:
Silverthorne wrote:
Sustained Assault from 3rd ed Barroah rules. Basically the same as a furiosos talon rule but a special rule and not wargear. I can't remember if anyone else has had that rule since.

One of the SW characters has a number of bonus attacks that equals the number of models he killed in the last round of combat.

Is that close? I saw him work his way up to 20something versus orks...it was...my favorite 40k moment ever.

Oh yeah saga of the warrior born? Something like that. Very close but not the same. Sustained Assault you could add another to hit roll for every hit you landed. And the bonus hits could Also generate hits. It took forever to roll out.

Aren't you thinking of "Web Of Skulls", a 3rd edition wargear for Eldar Swooping Hawk Exarchs?

**Furyou Miko**

No, definitely "Sustained Assault." It was Baharroth's special power, but Swooping Hawk Exarchs could buy it too.

It wasn't totally broken because Baharroth was only S4, and Swooping Hawk Exarchs can't take power weapons.

**Static-Cat**

ductvader wrote:
Regardless, Independent Character already wins in my book.

Imagine every model having that...now we've got Carnifex/Trygon Broods, We've got the Vindicare sitting with henchmen, Look at Crowe and Mephiston! Look at Guard blobs unforming and reforming into new squads at will.

IC wins.

Oh man, I have a headache just imagining the puzzle of challenges it would create!

**Mahtamori**

Furyou Miko wrote:
No, definitely "Sustained Assault." It was Baharroth's special power, but Swooping Hawk Exarchs could buy it too.

It wasn't totally broken because Baharroth was only S4, and Swooping Hawk Exarchs can't take power weapons.

Well, I think Swooping Exarchs could take Power Weapons, but since Web of Skulls was a special weapon it could neither be used in combination nor selected together with them.

Also, Special Characters were "opponent's approval" in 3rd edition, so the opponent could simply say "no" to Baharroth which severely limited the special rules' power

**Johnnytorrance**

The black mace's special rule on taking a toughness test on a WPN with +2 wound. If you lose the toughness test your model is removed from the table. Regardless of whether you have feel no pain, eternal warrior, or 3 wounds left.

**ductvader**

Johnnytorrance wrote:
The black mace's special rule on taking a toughness test on a WPN with +2 wound. If you lose the toughness test your model is removed from the table. Regardless of whether you have feel no pain, eternal warrior, or 3 wounds left.

Well, JotWW, the Hyperstone Maze, Necron Monoliths, The Red Terror, and GK Champions all have similar effects, and many are better and worse in different ways.

**Johnnytorrance**

ductvader wrote:
Johnnytorrance wrote:
The black mace's special rule on taking a toughness test on a WPN with +2 wound. If you lose the toughness test your model is removed from the table. Regardless of whether you have feel no pain, eternal warrior, or 3 wounds left.

Well, JotWW, the Hyperstone Maze, Necron Monoliths, The Red Terror, and GK Champions all have similar effects, and many are better and worse in different ways.

I discovered the black mace playing against my son. Thought that weapon was a crock of Shoot. Took out my SM captain, along with 4 other idiots who can't make a toughness save. Lol

**Tannhauser42**

So, reading the whole thread, I have come to this conclusion.
And They Shall Know No Fear is actually just fine.
It is the Sweeping Advance rule that is overpowered.

**ductvader**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
So, reading the whole thread, I have come to this conclusion.
And They Shall Know No Fear is actually just fine.
It is the Sweeping Advance rule that is overpowered.

At least...6th got rid of fearless saves.

**PrinceRaven**

Ah, good old "No Retreat", where Trygons would suddenly have heart attacks because a few termagants got squished.

How I celebrated when that was removed.

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
So, reading the whole thread, I have come to this conclusion.
And They Shall Know No Fear is actually just fine.
It is the Sweeping Advance rule that is overpowered.

I still think automatically regrouping and then getting a normal turn is quite an improvement when trying to claim a late objective with a below quarter squad, etc...