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 ductvader wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
With ATSKNF being so great, it's obvious that power armor armies are at the top of the competitive heap.

We're talking about the Strength of a USR, not an army.

The difference between the two is astronomical.

Consider ATSKNF being applied to Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, IG, or anything other than marines.

The result would be tremendous.

An army-wide special rule that not only doesn't horribly punish me but is actually useful? Not if GW has anything to say about it.

A power armour army IS at the top of the competitive heap, but so few people play it, nobody really understands its true power.

Oh, and it doesn't have ATSKNF. :p

The Helldrake only broke things because it has the same effect on Marines that heavy flamers have on the other armies in the game. Giving Marines a 4+ save instead of a 3+ save would have been exactly as powerful.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A power armour army IS at the top of the competitive heap, but so few people play it, nobody really understands its true power.

Oh, and it doesn't have ATSKNF. :p

The Helldrake only broke things because it has the same effect on Marines that heavy flamers have on the other armies in the game. Giving Marines a 4+ save instead of a 3+ save would have been exactly as powerful.

Ehhh... We have the Heldrake, Plague Marines are OK, Spawn are OK, Zombies are OK, Obliterators are OK... I guess... But we don't have much more.

And in case you're talking about Sisters... Ehhhh... No.

Plus, to my knowledge Heavy Flamers are not a 360 degree torrent weapon mounted on one of the toughest flyers in all of 40K.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A power armour army IS at the top of the competitive heap, but so few people play it, nobody really understands its true power.

Oh, and it doesn't have ATSKNF. :p

The Helldrake only broke things because it has the same effect on Marines that heavy flamers have on the other armies in the game. Giving Marines a 4+ save instead of a 3+ save would have been exactly as powerful.

Except in tournaments it's been placing very poorly.

(space marines should also apologize for being **** fan boys that got all the attention and now complaining that other xeno races are doing well.)

Except Aside from 3rd edition, Xenos have been on Top (Eldar specifically)

2nd Edition: Eldar
3rd Edition: Chaos/BA
4th: Eldar/Tau
5th: Transporthammer: GK/Necrons/SW
6th: Tau/Eldar.

Amusingly, the top-tier power armour army I was talking about is actually Codex: Adepta Sororitas, Not Codex: Baledrake.

Heavy Flamers are 360 firing, normally, and being on a flier is not the only way to get good mobility. Being a flier is not inherently broken.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Amusingly, the top-tier power armour army I was talking about is actually Codex: Adepta Sororitas, Not Codex: Baledrake.

Heavy Flamers are 360 firing, normally, and being on a flier is not the only way to get good mobility. Being a flier is not inherently broken.

My mistake, I just rarely see such praise of the Sisters.

That's because people take one look at "MEq but lower Str and T and not ASHKTNERG" and think "OH, they must suck REALLY bad."

Especially people who haven't actually played or played against them. But twelve scouting, ignores-cover meltaguns are Baledrake-level brokenness, and 20-strong Sisters squads with Priest support can tarpit anything and kill most everything else.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That's because people take one look at "MEq but lower Str and T and not ASHKTNERG" and think "OH, they must suck REALLY bad."

Especially people who haven't actually played or played against them. But twelve scouting, ignores-cover meltaguns are Baledrake-level brokenness, and 20-strong Sisters squads with Priest support can tarpit anything and kill most everything else.

I'm not saying that Sisters are a bad army, like you I think they're a lot stronger than what people give them credit for, but they're not as strong as Eldar or Tau.

I do fairly well against Tau with my Sisters, to be honest. I'm fast enough to take out his backfield stuff and don't have to rely on gimmicks to win, since I can just march across the board in large numbers and actually bolter down his Riptide, if I don't Exorcist it.

You need 270 bolter shots on average to kill a Riptide without FNP. I'm not sure what your enemy is doing for all the turns you're stood shooting bolters at his Riptides, but I have a sneaking suspicion that he's doing it wrong.

^ That. If you have 135 Battle Sisters standing around able to gun down his Riptide in Rapid Fire range, I suspect something might be fishy.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I do fairly well against Tau with my Sisters, to be honest. I'm fast enough to take out his backfield stuff and don't have to rely on gimmicks to win, since I can just march across the board in large numbers and actually bolter down his Riptide, if I don't Exorcist it.

How would you exorcist it? They'll pop their thing in order to gain a 3++ save regardless if they are smart, at least the few times I've seen it tried. They don't really need to overcharge for sisters that much.

Back on topic.

I think the most powerful special rule is probably something rare like God or War because it allows you to choose to pass or fail at will, which in itself is mental.
Although reserve manipulation is also a very useful rule.

Now if we're discussing the most overly abundant rule which affects games the most I'd go with ATSKNF and ignores cover, because ignores cover prevents a lot of rules being useful including special abilities as does ATSKNF. However ignores cover has a more prominent status due to it largely contributing to the 'power level' of 2 armies that can throw it around a lot.

On a separate note i think the cover system needs a rethink it clearly doesn't work at present.

Wow I'm suprised I was the only one so far to say Psyker for most powerful USR, I know ignores cover can be a real pain but it doesn't really matter vs a rerollable 2++

Psykers aren't that bad themselves, it's just the tables are complete trash. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use Pyromancy for example. Psykers are only powerful when they have either enough levels to get the powers they want or the primaris is an autopick over 3/4 of the table. Or when you have both. I'm looking at you and your ridiculous helmet erection, Farseer.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Psykers aren't that bad themselves, it's just the tables are complete trash. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use Pyromancy for example. Psykers are only powerful when they have either enough levels to get the powers they want or the primaris is an autopick over 3/4 of the table. Or when you have both. I'm looking at you and your ridiculous helmet erection, Farseer.

Or when you're Tyranids and you have an amazing table.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Wow I'm suprised I was the only one so far to say Psyker for most powerful USR, I know ignores cover can be a real pain but it doesn't really matter vs a rerollable 2++

Um, Psyker has nothing to do with the rerollable 2++.

The rerollable 2++ is an artifact combined with the Daemon and Daemon of Tzeentch rules. Nothing to do with Psyker powers.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
Wow I'm suprised I was the only one so far to say Psyker for most powerful USR, I know ignores cover can be a real pain but it doesn't really matter vs a rerollable 2++

Um, Psyker has nothing to do with the rerollable 2++.

The rerollable 2++ is an artifact combined with the Daemon and Daemon of Tzeentch rules. Nothing to do with Psyker powers.

And Divination to give them a 4++. Daemon of Tzeentch doesn't give better saves, it just lets you reroll 1's.

MasterOfGaunts wrote:

Well I dont think ATSKNF is to strong.

It gets my vote for being useful for any unit. Auto regroup and extra 3" moves are nice, but what really settles it for me is that you can't be wiped out in sweeping advance.

 soomemafia wrote:

MasterOfGaunts wrote:

Well I dont think ATSKNF is to strong.

It gets my vote for being useful for any unit. Auto regroup and extra 3" moves are nice, but what really settles it for me is that you can't be wiped out in sweeping advance.

Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

Martel732 wrote:


Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

You keep talking about marines while most of us are talking about the rule.

ATSKNF is a powerful rule. Ignore Cover is powerful too, but imagine if only lasguns could take it. Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

I was working on the assumption that 'special rule' only meant those rules listed in the Special Rules section of the main rulebook.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
The strongest rule is Independent Character.

By Far.

However, I'd overlooked that one. I'd agree that it's probably the most beneficial rule for any individual model to have. A 2+ roll to avoid almost any damage, which stacks with your normal saving throw? That's amazing and it's only one of the benefits of being an IC.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

You keep talking about marines while most of us are talking about the rule.

ATSKNF is a powerful rule. Ignore Cover is powerful too, but imagine if only lasguns could take it. Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

Is it? FNP has been mentioned, but it's terrible on a unit like Repentia vs someone like a 30 strong unit of tyranids.

If you ignore what units things are on, then you have no real basis of understanding how useful the rule actually is.

Perfect Organism wrote:
I was working on the assumption that 'special rule' only meant those rules listed in the Special Rules section of the main rulebook.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
The strongest rule is Independent Character.

By Far.

However, I'd overlooked that one. I'd agree that it's probably the most beneficial rule for any individual model to have. A 2+ roll to avoid almost any damage, which stacks with your normal saving throw? That's amazing and it's only one of the benefits of being an IC.

I also concede to IC, if every model had IC we'd have some pretty ridiculous and complicated shenanigans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
If you ignore what units things are on, then you have no real basis of understanding how useful the rule actually is.

Actually, then you understand how good it is overall in comparison to all other rules in all aspects of the game.

You've just provided a basis for why FnP isn't the strongest by applying it across multiple units, that's what we're getting at.

Sustained Assault from 3rd ed Barroah rules. Basically the same as a furiosos talon rule but a special rule and not wargear. I can't remember if anyone else has had that rule since.

Speaking from the Special Rules chapter (in the BRB) it would have to be ignores cover. Look at it this way, if you could give a special rules to an entire army...which would you choose.

For many armies this would be ignores cover.

If you are looking at the Entire BRB it is the Battle Brothers rule.

If you are looking outside the BRB it is Destroyer.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Because there are so many assaults in 6th ed. The true CC units will wipe your marines anyway.

You keep talking about marines while most of us are talking about the rule.

ATSKNF is a powerful rule. Ignore Cover is powerful too, but imagine if only lasguns could take it. Separate the rule from the codex, because that's what this discussion is.

Is it? FNP has been mentioned, but it's terrible on a unit like Repentia vs someone like a 30 strong unit of tyranids.

If you ignore what units things are on, then you have no real basis of understanding how useful the rule actually is.

Which is partly my point, I just didn't go into enough detail. FnP gets a lot better on things like Riptides, or units with re-rollable invulns already. ATSKNF is still a great rule, even on marines, they're just a little lower on the power scale than Eldar and Tau (but are otherwise fine). However, ATSKNF is a very powerful rule on large blobs of durable infantry, or on CC oriented models, or on models that are weak in CC and don't want to swept.

Same goes for ignore cover. Ignore cover on lasguns is mediocre at best, but awesome on a Baleflamer.

I should specify that judging a rule based on the contents of the power level of the codex its predominantly found in (ATSKNF for marines) is not a good yardstick for determining the strength of the rule.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Sustained Assault from 3rd ed Barroah rules. Basically the same as a furiosos talon rule but a special rule and not wargear. I can't remember if anyone else has had that rule since.

One of the SW characters has a number of bonus attacks that equals the number of models he killed in the last round of combat.

Is that close? I saw him work his way up to 20something versus orks...it was...my favorite 40k moment ever.

Now if we were talking about sheer number of benefits ATSKNF wins.

NO sweep -huge benefit as it allows the best use of our weapons are useless if it comes into play.
Auto Re-group and act normally = huge.
Ignore Fear (which is by the way the worst special rule in the BRB)

 ductvader wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Sustained Assault from 3rd ed Barroah rules. Basically the same as a furiosos talon rule but a special rule and not wargear. I can't remember if anyone else has had that rule since.

One of the SW characters has a number of bonus attacks that equals the number of models he killed in the last round of combat.

Is that close? I saw him work his way up to 20something versus orks...it was...my favorite 40k moment ever.

Oh yeah saga of the warrior born? Something like that. Very close but not the same. Sustained Assault you could add another to hit roll for every hit you landed. And the bonus hits could Also generate hits. It took forever to roll out.