Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I want to say Ignore Cover, but I agree with one of the previous comments that 2+ cover should not be possible and definitely not in the amounts I've seen it. I honestly think that Ignores cover should only ignore terrain based cover.
For example: You have a unit in ruins with shrouded. It gets hit with a cover ignoring weapon and negates the 4+ from the ruins and changes the cover save from a 2+ to a 5+. It reduces the durability significantly, while not entirely negating the cover mechanic for units that pay a lot of points for their cover boosts.

Which benefits MEQ the most as a result.

Actually, bugs and orks, KFF and Venomthropes would be kings of cover.

Most scouts and units like striking scorpions and lictors would benefit immediately.

The Solitaire would literally laugh at tau, he would shred tau actually.

I Xenos have more forms of natural shrouding and stealth overall, white scars and dark angels are the only marines that would really really benefit.

A hard choice for me between Eternal Warrior and Ignores Cover so I'm going to leave them as a tie.

 scommy wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:
You're being cheated then. Can't take fnp vs instant death.

He got cheated twice, because you can't take a cover save and an invulnerable save for the same wound.

Sheesh your kidding right? This guy was rolling cover saves, invul, then FnP

With lasguns hitting he was rolling cover saves, armour saves, invul, then FnP. Sure its not some special Tyranid thing to get more saves?

Ouch, I think it sounds like the most powerful rules are the ones that people make up and then try to get away with. Yea, you only ever get one save, and you pick the best from the following: Cover, Armor, Invuln. Then, if the S of the attack is not double your T, you get a FnP (if your unit has FnP that is!). Id make sure his unit was actually supposed to have FnP.

Next time you play this guy, have the rulebook handy and tell him he has been doing it wrong. If he argues, ask him to point out the special rules or exceptions in his codex.

FnP at what save though :p i dont know if a 2+ FnP exists in game...

My vote would be eternal warrior

Elgrun wrote:
FnP at what save though :p i dont know if a 2+ FnP exists in game...

My vote would be eternal warrior

Corbulo. But he's only T4, so he gets IDed a lot.

Martel732 wrote:
My vote goes for ignore cover. ATSKNF is hyper-overrated and I question the objectivity of anyone who picks this rule. Ignore cover and smash both have bigger game effects than ATSKNF. If your opponent lets ATSKNF be a factor, that's on them, not ATSKNF being good. Because my lowly BA overcome lists with ATSKNF all the time. I don't need to sweep marines or worry about them regrouping if I *kill* them.

I've played without this rule in effect several times and rarely missed it.

'cause you must kill all marines of a unit to break their back, for most other armies it's enough to break their morale. If you don't kill all tacticals, guess what single model is going to automatically regroup, move 3", then move another 6" and then run up to the objective? Yes, ATSKNF means you have to play around it. Ignores cover is powerful, but it's limited due to it's scope whereas ATSKNF is given out more freely than AP2/3.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
My vote goes for ignore cover. ATSKNF is hyper-overrated and I question the objectivity of anyone who picks this rule. Ignore cover and smash both have bigger game effects than ATSKNF. If your opponent lets ATSKNF be a factor, that's on them, not ATSKNF being good. Because my lowly BA overcome lists with ATSKNF all the time. I don't need to sweep marines or worry about them regrouping if I *kill* them.

I've played without this rule in effect several times and rarely missed it.

'cause you must kill all marines of a unit to break their back, for most other armies it's enough to break their morale. If you don't kill all tacticals, guess what single model is going to automatically regroup, move 3", then move another 6" and then run up to the objective? Yes, ATSKNF means you have to play around it. Ignores cover is powerful, but it's limited due to it's scope whereas ATSKNF is given out more freely than AP2/3.

It's a rule that is taken for granted by way too many players.

With ATSKNF being so great, it's obvious that power armor armies are at the top of the competitive heap. Oh wait...

Let's face it. Chronologically, the wheels starting coming off the bus because of what? #1 was Heldrake (S6 AP3 IGNORES COVER that can reach out and touch almost anything), #2 Wave serpents (almost always twin linked D6+1 S7 AP - IGNORES COVER that can reach out and touch almost anything), #3 Tau, with their markerlights, Riptides, and Broadsides (can IGNORE COVER with powerful weapons that can reach out and touch almost anything).

Space marines have always had ATSKNF, and the competitive scene was never as broken as it is nowadays. The prevalence of Ignores Cover has made total army builds (and their parent codecies) irrelevant (ask the Dark Angels if they'd rather see Ignores cover or ANY OTHER USR removed from the game). Tyranids have been given a great upgrade to the venomthrope (shrouding to every unit that has a model within 6" of the venomthrope) THAT DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL in the competitive scene because of how commonplace Ignores Cover is.

But yeah. ATSKNF is pretty cool...

Even though I bear huge despise towards the Feel No Pain, I must say that the most powerful special rule right now marvels in its abundance; Ignores Cover.

ATSKNF was earth shattering in 3rd. Now, in 6th, it's meh.

If you guys are having trouble murdering marines, which is something even BA can do, maybe a list rebuild is in order.

 Voidwraith wrote:
With ATSKNF being so great, it's obvious that power armor armies are at the top of the competitive heap.

We're talking about the Strength of a USR, not an army.

The difference between the two is astronomical.

Consider ATSKNF being applied to Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, IG, or anything other than marines.

The result would be tremendous.

Shooting wave serpents at marines means the ignore cover rule has almost no effect since the armour save is usually better anyways. I would actually vote that the most broken rule is atsknf, its saved my opponents and grey knight more times than i can count, and its the reason that chaos space marines are less valued than their loyalist brother-in.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Shooting wave serpents at marines means the ignore cover rule has almost no effect since the armour save is usually better anyways. I would actually vote that the most broken rule is atsknf, its saved my opponents and grey knight more times than i can count, and its the reason that chaos space marines are less valued than their loyalist brother-in.

Sure, but people use cover, including stealth and shrouding, to help all kinds of units become more survivable. A wave serpent really doesn't help vs. someone using an armor save, but it also isn't hampered against a Nurgle Daemon Prince standing in terrain, a unit of whatever going to ground behind an aegis, etc.

I prefer to fight an army with the know no fear rule than an army with run shoot run or reanimation or ignore cover. From a game play perspective.

Usually because its not like you are fighting heaps of models with that rule and its no an issue most of the game. It also doesnt kill my men before i can kill them, the know no fear rule only applies when the unit with it is dying. Which is great. My eldar dont need to loose men to use any of their rules, nor do tau need to loose men to use marker lights.

In short, the space marine rule has only annoyed me once, but my own eldar army annoys me all the time as its a bit crazy what they can do.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Shooting wave serpents at marines means the ignore cover rule has almost no effect since the armour save is usually better anyways. I would actually vote that the most broken rule is atsknf, its saved my opponents and grey knight more times than i can count, and its the reason that chaos space marines are less valued than their loyalist brother-in.

Now shoot that wave serpent at land speeders or a list relying on cover. If your opponents are alive to use ATSKNF, that's on you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ductvader wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
With ATSKNF being so great, it's obvious that power armor armies are at the top of the competitive heap.

We're talking about the Strength of a USR, not an army.

The difference between the two is astronomical.

Consider ATSKNF being applied to Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, IG, or anything other than marines.

The result would be tremendous.

I hadn't thought of it like that. Although Eldar are fearless riding in their Wave Serpents already. And we've seen IG with it. It's solid, but they are still just guardsmen. When defenses stood a chance in this game, this argument would be much more compelling.

 ductvader wrote:
We're talking about the Strength of a USR, not an army.

The difference between the two is astronomical.

Consider ATSKNF being applied to Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, IG, or anything other than marines.

The result would be tremendous.

That. Pretty much to the letter.

 Araenion wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
We're talking about the Strength of a USR, not an army.

The difference between the two is astronomical.

Consider ATSKNF being applied to Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, IG, or anything other than marines.

The result would be tremendous.

That. Pretty much to the letter.

Problem is the army is the basing measure, considering that the MEQ it's applied too it's not exactly not the greatest.

 Macok wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
I also don't know if I find it ironic, amusing, or maddeningly soul-crushing that Tau and Eldar players have the gall to say that marines are at an advantage to them with a straight face.

Do you know why is it possible? That may be because we are talking about a single rule, not about whole units, codexes etc.
Each and every discussion must end in: "but you are Eldar \ Tau so you must apologise for everything!!"?
Geez, how much pity do some of the players need..

Yes, most units are more powerful, that does not mean each and every SM rule is so weak that comparing them is "maddeningly soul-crushing". Really? Those are the words you use to compare ATSKNF to Ignore Covered? Drama much?

But marines should apologize for being poster boys, getting more spotlight, and having ATSKNF even though their army is worse than yours, right?

I would rather be accused of supposed "drama" rather than make blatantly hypocritical and ignorant posts.

Most powerful rule is Ignore Cover and Battle Focus. ATSKNF doesn't even change anything in terms of winning or losing other than making marines even worse. "Oh no, those Dark Angels know no fear! How will I ever win now?" said no player ever.

I would say Ignore Cover is only great because of how they've been pushing so many codexes with high AP values, take that away and if they were ap 5 or 4 specific and I'd be fine with it. However, that is not the case. Everything is AP2 and 3 at which it becomes pretty much broken. Battle Focus is possibly the most rediculous speacial rule that was every devised. When an army has the ability to move, shoot (Rending) and move again like they were all warpspiders.... then there's a problem. I might not have such a problem if they didn't have rending as then it's not too bad.. but as it stands right now... it's down right cheating.

also ATSKNF is a little bit rediculous, it should just allow people to be stubborn, or be able to re-roll a failed morale check....I mean them not being capablee of being sweeping advanced by a 30 man blob but being able to do so to said blob is cheating . Though I can't say it's not that big a deal right now... I mean not too marine players outside drop pod armies, and grey knights actually have the capability of getting in assault to be able to use said special ability

 Dezstiny wrote:

Most powerful rule is Ignore Cover and Battle Focus. ATSKNF doesn't even change anything in terms of winning or losing other than making marines even worse. "Oh no, those Dark Angels know no fear! How will I ever win now?" said no player ever.

I would say Ignore Cover is only great because of how they've been pushing so many codexes with high AP values, take that away and if they were ap 5 or 4 specific and I'd be fine with it. However, that is not the case. Everything is AP2 and 3 at which it becomes pretty much broken. Battle Focus is possibly the most rediculous speacial rule that was every devised. When an army has the ability to move, shoot (Rending) and move again like they were all warpspiders.... then there's a problem. I might not have such a problem if they didn't have rending as then it's not too bad.. but as it stands right now... it's down right cheating.

agreed, and as a result of that special rule even more speed was granted to the warp spiders...

but run shoot run, unlike most rules, is almost always usefull

(run shoot run for Da and guard-Does nothing against 24" guns like grey knights.) As a general rule i would say that the marines rule is still good and on most units regrouping is awesome.
(sorry i played eldar when they sucked and now that they are good i must be a band wagon jumper that's also a noob even though i have been playing since my pre-teens.)
(eventually it will balance out and eldar will suck again, and guess what,... I and many vets/fluff bunnies will still be playing them.)
(space marines should also apologize for being **** fan boys that got all the attention and now complaining that other xeno races are doing well.)
As for the mass amount of ap2, eldar don't care(other than pheonix lords) because our best armour is 3+. And the pseudo rending/battle focus is great yes i do agree and it works well for eldar, but the unit sucked/was overcosted and couldn't do any job over than dying. Now they are decent, but the thing is jet bikes the thing that couldn't use battle focus got the most power from the rending attacks.(and are also cheap), the days of aspect armies are dead.

But in short i believe atskfn is the best rule only because of it being on troops making them hold the objective in those crucial moments.

When did Eldar suck again?

Troops can't hold ANYTHING when they're dead. What part of this don't you understand?

Well whatever rule you guys decide is the best, it's likely that a Tau Commander is out there giving it someone who doesn't have it natively….

 Slayer222 wrote:
(run shoot run for Da and guard-Does nothing against 24" guns like grey knights.) As a general rule i would say that the marines rule is still good and on most units regrouping is awesome.
(sorry i played eldar when they sucked and now that they are good i must be a band wagon jumper that's also a noob even though i have been playing since my pre-teens.)
(eventually it will balance out and eldar will suck again, and guess what,... I and many vets/fluff bunnies will still be playing them.)
(space marines should also apologize for being **** fan boys that got all the attention and now complaining that other xeno races are doing well.)
As for the mass amount of ap2, eldar don't care(other than pheonix lords) because our best armour is 3+. And the pseudo rending/battle focus is great yes i do agree and it works well for eldar, but the unit sucked/was overcosted and couldn't do any job over than dying. Now they are decent, but the thing is jet bikes the thing that couldn't use battle focus got the most power from the rending attacks.(and are also cheap), the days of aspect armies are dead.

But in short i believe atskfn is the best rule only because of it being on troops making them hold the objective in those crucial moments.

Hey, I use a 99% Aspect eldar army, frankly battle focus is far superior over regrouping. I use it every single turn and kill units way outside my range, if they are within range i shoot then retreat backwards or into cover. battle focus woind because of its ability to stack with other special rules for extra pow pow.

 ductvader wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
With ATSKNF being so great, it's obvious that power armor armies are at the top of the competitive heap.

We're talking about the Strength of a USR, not an army.

The difference between the two is astronomical.

Consider ATSKNF being applied to Orks, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, IG, or anything other than marines.

The result would be tremendous.

ATSKNF has technically been available to Tau and IG since 6th dropped. I don't recall any Tau lists that really got away with abusing it, but I do remember that there were guard blobs using SM characters to abuse ATSKNF for a while. Don't think they amounted to much though.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Most powerful rule is Ignore Cover and Battle Focus. ATSKNF doesn't even change anything in terms of winning or losing other than making marines even worse. "Oh no, those Dark Angels know no fear! How will I ever win now?" said no player ever.

I'm sad that I missed this reply earlier. Exalted for comedy and truth.

I hate any rule that allows for re-rollable 2+ or 3+ inv saves. Makes the unit near unkillable.

Guys, I think we can all agree the most powerful rule is...Instinctive Behavior (Lurk). Think about it, how many times have you played a KT game against a horde of Termagants, just to have them turn around and run away, on the top of turn 1?

No no it is all about Instinctive Behavior(Consume) there's nothing better than a charge that promptly turns into the enemy eating themself until nobody is left. CYNIMATIC!

The strongest rule is Independent Character.

By Far.