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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only if you're allowed to fire do you count as stationary. When you are told you cannot shoot, how are you getting to the point where you count as if you are stationary or not? Citation needed, as you have continually ignored this.

And a plasma cannon cannot fire if it moves since it cannot Snap Fire. This is no different.

Nope, very different. The unit is still eligible to shoot, that weapon isn't barring snp.

There is a dlear distinction in timing here. One you are ignoring

There is no distinction. SNP grants the ability to ignore movement. It breaks Snap Shot and Artillery rules because both are restrictions based on movement. Since SNP models did not move, you have no restriction.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only if you're allowed to fire do you count as stationary. When you are told you cannot shoot, how are you getting to the point where you count as if you are stationary or not? Citation needed, as you have continually ignored this.

And a plasma cannon cannot fire if it moves since it cannot Snap Fire. This is no different.

Right it cannot Snap Fire. Neither can an Artillery Gun. The difference is that Artillery [i]specifically[/]i forbids you from firing the gun model if it moved as well as not being able to fire Snap Shots.

And it did not move if it was SNP and one of those types of weapons. You cannot apply the process of SNP to one case and not another.

Fragile wrote:
And it did not move if it was SNP and one of those types of weapons. You cannot apply the process of SNP to one case and not another.

You can actually. Because they're evaluated at difference steps.
But since you ignore that simple fact, and any other facts that prove you wrong, I'm not sure why I'm replying.

Because you have shown nothing that contradicts "counts as stationary".

Fragile wrote:
Because you have shown nothing that contradicts "counts as stationary".

"for the purposes of firing Heavy, Ordnance, and Salvo weapons."

You missed a bit.

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Because you have shown nothing that contradicts "counts as stationary".

"for the purposes of firing Heavy, Ordnance, and Salvo weapons."

You missed a bit.

Not at all, that is entirely what we have been talking about, to have repeated it every post is redundant. If said Artillery weapon fits one of those types, then SNP works.

But then you need to show permission to override the Artillery rule of "The gun model cannot be fired if it moved." You keep claiming the ability to fire Heavy weapons as if stationary is enough permission, but it is not.

The artillery rule is a restriction if it moved. With SNP it counts as stationary, which means it did not move. Which means it can fire.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You'd basically have a squad of T7 models walking 6" per turn. Whoopee-do.

I know you already changed your mind about the rule but, Mugan Ra in an Eldar artillery squad with the D cannons, being able to move and still fire would be really overpowered especially because their one downside is the relatively small range of the D cannons.

Fragile wrote:
The artillery rule is a restriction if it moved. With SNP it counts as stationary, which means it did not move. Which means it can fire.

That part is wrong. SNP does not "make you stationary"....

SNP says you are Stationary when you fire your weapon.
But you can't fire because of Artillery RaW.

You just keep breaking Artillery RaW and then applying SNP after doing so.

Do Not even read the SNP rule if you have no weapon.... Or are you going to tell me SNP affect how i shoot with my hormagaunts? There is no weapon to shoot, you therefore do not apply SNP.
Trying to make it clear...

You brought nothing new to the argument.

Artillery cannot fire because they moved. SNP lets you fire counting as stationary even if you moved.

Except artillery allows for no exceptions.

It says "moved at all"

The same wording does not appear under Ordnance, which is permitted to fire under the slow and purposeful rules.

It does not offer the same permission to artillery, which follows it's own set of rules.

Fragile wrote:
You brought nothing new to the argument.

Artillery cannot fire because they moved. SNP lets you fire counting as stationary even if you moved.

Only when you get to firing the weapon can you count as stationary. With Artillery you are not allowed to fire the gun, if you have moved.

The prohibition kicks in before SaP can trigger, again. You are simply just ignoring the evidence that proves you wrong.

Fragile wrote:
You brought nothing new to the argument.

Artillery cannot fire because they moved. SNP lets you fire counting as stationary even if you moved.

You are basically reading SNP inappropriately. SNP doesn't just "let you fire" regardless of what you do...
It only allows you to count certain weapons as stationary once you fire.

As many have pointed out, RaI if they wanted SNP to override Artillery, it would have to contain Assault weapons too...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You brought nothing new to the argument.

Artillery cannot fire because they moved. SNP lets you fire counting as stationary even if you moved.

Only when you get to firing the weapon can you count as stationary. With Artillery you are not allowed to fire the gun, if you have moved.

The prohibition kicks in before SaP can trigger, again. You are simply just ignoring the evidence that proves you wrong.

To be fair, ordnance doesn't allow move and shoot either. Except ordnance doesn't have "at all" in its wording.

It says "moved at all"

This wording has no bearing on the argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You brought nothing new to the argument.

Artillery cannot fire because they moved. SNP lets you fire counting as stationary even if you moved.

Only when you get to firing the weapon can you count as stationary. With Artillery you are not allowed to fire the gun, if you have moved.

The prohibition kicks in before SaP can trigger, again. You are simply just ignoring the evidence that proves you wrong.

You have yet to provide any. Where does your prohibition kick in? Look at the shooting steps on pg12. Step 1 Nominate Unit to Shoot is where you check for moving with Artillery, it is also where you check for moving with a heavy blast weapon. Neither can fire, however, SNP kicks in and overrides, allowing you do finish the steps. So where is your other prohibition?

The difference is that the Gun Model may not be fired if it moved. The Gun does not fire itself, it is fired by a crewman (which by the way, nothing prohibits a crewman from moving and then firing an artillery piece that didn't move.) The restriction is on the gun model itself, and nothing gives the crewman permission to use the gun model if the gun model has moved. The crewman can fire any heavy, ordinance or salvo weapons he may be carrying, but still cannot override the Gun models own rule about not being used if it had moved.

Fragile - it was provided by others, already

Step one is when you determine if the UNIT can fire. An artilllery unit cannot fire if it moved. Stop. Do not go further

You do not determine if the weapon can fire (heavy blast that moved) until further down the shoorting phase. At this point you ARE shooting, so CAN use SNP.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Step one is when you determine if the UNIT can fire. An artilllery unit cannot fire if it moved. Stop. Do not go further

Just like to further add to this.
Step one also determines if a MODEL can fire, not just a unit.

See "Who can shoot?"
"Certain situations prevent a model from firing"

Also it needs to be pointed out that the Artillery restriction is on gun models, not the unit. If the crew had pistols for example, the unit can move and shoot just fine with those pistols (but not with a gun model's weapon).

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You'd basically have a squad of T7 models walking 6" per turn. Whoopee-do.

I know you already changed your mind about the rule but, Mugan Ra in an Eldar artillery squad with the D cannons, being able to move and still fire would be really overpowered especially because their one downside is the relatively small range of the D cannons.

Can't they do that already? I thought eldar weapons plateform were relentless... unless, that was changed in the new codex.

 whembly wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You'd basically have a squad of T7 models walking 6" per turn. Whoopee-do.

I know you already changed your mind about the rule but, Mugan Ra in an Eldar artillery squad with the D cannons, being able to move and still fire would be really overpowered especially because their one downside is the relatively small range of the D cannons.

Can't they do that already? I thought eldar weapons plateform were relentless... unless, that was changed in the new codex.

The Eldar have 2 kinds of platforms. The ones that Guardians can take in their units are relentless. The Heavy Support options are artillery and do not have relentless.

I think FlyerMM said it perfectly. The Gun Model doesn't fire it's own weapon. If it did then SNP would allow it to do so. Other models in the unit must be used to fire the artillery weapon. SNP only allows models to fire their own weapons if they are Heavy/Ordinance/Salvo but doesn't mention anything about firing another model's weapon like in the case of Artillery. And since SNP does not mention artillery in it's rules then you do not have permission to fire the artillery piece if it moved, even with SNP.

FYI, the Eldar Guardian Heavy Weapon platforms are classified as Infantry, not artillery. They are able to fire after moving - the Relentless USR just lets them use their full BS as though they were stationary.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fragile - it was provided by others, already

Step one is when you determine if the UNIT can fire. An artilllery unit cannot fire if it moved. Stop. Do not go further

You do not determine if the weapon can fire (heavy blast that moved) until further down the shoorting phase. At this point you ARE shooting, so CAN use SNP.

Which step, 2, 3, 4, or 5 ?

Fragile wrote:
Which step, 2, 3, 4, or 5 ?

Step 3 is the first time a model is refered to as firing.
Step 1 and 2 are determining if a model/unit can fire (See "Who can shoot?", "Line of Sight", "Checking Range" and "Which models can fire?").
So only once you hit step 3 is a model/unit actually firing. This is where SAP would kick in.

Unfortunatly the gun model was barred from shooting at step 1 (See "Who Can Shoot?")