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My view : The Slow and Purposeful rule does not allow a model to fire an artillery piece that has moved.

So your telling me your weapon profile says artillery instead of Heavy X?

No what I am saying is that the rule for artillery says that if it moves it cannot fire.

S&P doesn't give you the ability to override that prohibition

Do USR's normally override restrictions that apply to a particular Unit Type? I can't really think of any examples (mostly because the Unit Type section almost universally grants buffs).

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Do USR's normally override restrictions that apply to a particular Unit Type? I can't really think of any examples (mostly because the Unit Type section almost universally grants buffs).

They can but only explicitly.

What a model would need is the ability to : fire a Unit Type Artillery that has moved.

S&P doesn't give you that.

once again, If the artillery consists of a gun with the Heavy, Salvo, or Ordanence type weaponry, it may fire as though it had not moved.

Eihnlazer wrote:
once again, If the artillery consists of a gun with the Heavy, Salvo, or Ordanence type weaponry, it may fire as though it had not moved.

The artillery rules still count it as having moved, because it did. So it has both moved and not moved. For one of the rules, it matters. Furthermore, for S&P to work the model must be firing a weapon they have. Artillery crew fire "Gun Models" and are specifically prohibited from firing "weapons they have." S&P is not triggered.

The artillery itself is a weapon that they have, or it has of and in itself.

You keep saying it has moved and cant shoot, but since it counts as stationary it actually has not moved as far as shooting is concerned.

Eihnlazer wrote:
The artillery itself is a weapon that they have, or it has of and in itself.

You keep saying it has moved and cant shoot, but since it counts as stationary it actually has not moved as far as shooting is concerned.

For only certain parts of shooting it counts as not having moved.

Eihnlazer wrote:
The artillery itself is a weapon that they have, or it has of and in itself.

You keep saying it has moved and cant shoot, but since it counts as stationary it actually has not moved as far as shooting is concerned.

No, S&P is clear: When you shoot, you count as stationary.

Only when you shoot: if you are not allowed to shoot, you cannot count your shooting as anything...

Fragile wrote:
It helps if people actually quote the correct rule and not what they think the rule says.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons

You count as stationary even if you moved.

SHOOTING WITH ARTILLERY

Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots.

The underlined is the context of that rule.

Since S&P counts as not moving when they fire the weapons, they can fire Artillery without issue.

+1

Plain english. They can move, shoot, and assault, if any model in the unit has S&P, regardless if the artillery has moved or not.

 Rismonite wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It helps if people actually quote the correct rule and not what they think the rule says.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons

You count as stationary even if you moved.

SHOOTING WITH ARTILLERY

Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots.

The underlined is the context of that rule.

Since S&P counts as not moving when they fire the weapons, they can fire Artillery without issue.

+1

Plain english. They can move, shoot, and assault, if any model in the unit has S&P, regardless if the artillery has moved or not.

Except you have not shown specific permission to override the Artillery rules that say if the gun model moves it cannot be fired. That restriction does not care what type the gun is. It could be Assault 40, but if it moves, it still cannot fire. You need something to specifically override the Artillery rules. SnP dose not do that.

 BlackTalos wrote:
No, S&P is clear: When you shoot, you count as stationary.

Only when you shoot: if you are not allowed to shoot, you cannot count your shooting as anything...

Rismonite, did you even read this post?

Artillery models cannot fire when they have moved, regardless of special rules. Unless they bring out a rule that says "artillery models may shoot after moving", but S&P has no such specification.

[Edit] This is pretty much the exact same post as HappyJew, different wording. Apologies.

I'd say that it can move and shoot.

As my example, a thunderfire cannon and techmarine gunner count as a single "unit". They are both T7 when being shot at and have wounds allocated the same as for a unit of tac marines. S&P seems to be a blanket rule that the "unit" can fire as stationary.

I make the point of the unit because riptides cannot be joined by IC's unless they have drones, then they count as a unit for rules purposes.

But at the end of the day this argument can go round and round in circles as there are several different converging rules.

(as a side note, relentless does not grant S&P so an IC in terminator armour would not allow the TFC to fire. I don't think there are any marine IC's that are S&P?)

Tarthenal - as I pointed out earlier there are two different restrictions when dealing with Artillery
1. They cannot fire Snap Shots.
2. If the gun model moves, it cannot be fired.

SnP overrides 1, but not 2.

Furthermore, an IC [i]can[/]i join a Riptide without Drones, just like an IC can join the sole survivng member of a Tac squad. It doesn't matter how many models are in the unit, only that the unit has the option to include more than 1.

"A unit that contains at least one model" --> "counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase."

"Unit" -> A unit with Artillery in it. Is it somehow not a unit with S&P in it if there is artillery?

The model is part of a unit that contains a S&P model and specifically refers to "stationary, even if they moved in the previous movement phase" in the rule.

 Rismonite wrote:
"A unit that contains at least one model" --> "counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase."

They don't count as stationary. They shoot counting as stationary.
If not allowed to shoot at all, then shooting as stationary isn't much help.

 Rismonite wrote:
"A unit that contains at least one model" --> "counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase."

"Unit" -> A unit with Artillery in it. Is it somehow not a unit with S&P in it if there is artillery?

The model is part of a unit that contains a S&P model and specifically refers to "stationary, even if they moved in the previous movement phase" in the rule.

If you are going to quote the rule to support your argument it helps to quote the important part of the rule.

"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule" ->"can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary."

I underlined the important bit you missed.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
"A unit that contains at least one model" --> "counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase."

They don't count as stationary. They shoot counting as stationary.
If not allowed to shoot at all, then shooting as stationary isn't much help.

"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons"

Reading guys.. Second sentence, "They can, however, SHOOT with heavy"

They can shoot, they is refering to the UNIT (which happens to contain artillery) that also has a S&P model.

Right, so you override the restriction on firing Snap Shots with Heavy weapons, the lesser shot/half range with Salvo, and the cannot fire Ordnance restrictions. Where does that override the restriction on firing an Artillery Weapon if the Gun moves?

 Happyjew wrote:
Right, so you override the restriction on firing Snap Shots with Heavy weapons, the lesser shot/half range with Salvo, and the cannot fire Ordnance restrictions. Where does that override the restriction on firing an Artillery Weapon if the Gun moves?

Ok maybe what we need to figure out if the 'gun model' is a model in the unit or just 'wargear' or 'a decorative gun model' or just something that doesn't count as a model in the unit. If there is something that says that this gun model is not a model in this unit and it's something else I can let it go.

 Rismonite wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
"A unit that contains at least one model" --> "counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase."

They don't count as stationary. They shoot counting as stationary.
If not allowed to shoot at all, then shooting as stationary isn't much help.

"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons"

Reading guys.. Second sentence, "They can, however, SHOOT with heavy"

They can shoot, they is refering to the UNIT (which happens to contain artillery) that also has a S&P model.

Yet they're barred from shooting at all. Being able to count as stationary when shooting doesn't help if not allowed to shoot.

You're seeing the word SHOOT and focusing on that, ignoring the rest of the sentence. It does not grant the ability to shoot.
It grants the ability to count as stationary, when shooting with certain weapons.

If you're not shooting with those weapons, can you count as being stationary? No.
And the Artillery restriction prevents you shooting.
So you can't fire a heavy weapon, so you can't use the SAP rule to then count as being stationary.

 Rismonite wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Right, so you override the restriction on firing Snap Shots with Heavy weapons, the lesser shot/half range with Salvo, and the cannot fire Ordnance restrictions. Where does that override the restriction on firing an Artillery Weapon if the Gun moves?

Ok maybe what we need to figure out if the 'gun model' is a model in the unit or just 'wargear' or 'a decorative gun model' or just something that doesn't count as a model in the unit. If there is something that says that this gun model is not a model in this unit and it's something else I can let it go.

The gun "figure" (to try and make this less confusing) is a model with some extra restrictions (such as not being able to have wounds allocated to it via LOS). It also has the restriction of not being able to be fired if the model moves. This has no bearing on the type of weapon it is. Whether it is Rapid Fire, Assault, Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance, it cannot fire if the model moves.

Normally when a model moves you have the following restrictions:
1. Heavy Weapons must fire Snap Shots.
2. Salvo weapons fire fewer shots at lesser range
3. Ordnance weapons cannot be fired.

SnP (and Relentless) override those restrictions, however you still ahve the additional restriction of not being able to fire an Artillery gun model if it moved that turn.

It is the exact same scenario as disembarking from a vehicle after coming in from reserve. Two restrictions on assaulting (arriving and disembarking), Assault Vehicle overrides one but not the other.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Right, so you override the restriction on firing Snap Shots with Heavy weapons, the lesser shot/half range with Salvo, and the cannot fire Ordnance restrictions. Where does that override the restriction on firing an Artillery Weapon if the Gun moves?

Ok maybe what we need to figure out if the 'gun model' is a model in the unit or just 'wargear' or 'a decorative gun model' or just something that doesn't count as a model in the unit. If there is something that says that this gun model is not a model in this unit and it's something else I can let it go.

The gun "figure" (to try and make this less confusing) is a model with some extra restrictions (such as not being able to have wounds allocated to it via LOS). It also has the restriction of not being able to be fired if the model moves. This has no bearing on the type of weapon it is. Whether it is Rapid Fire, Assault, Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance, it cannot fire if the model moves.

Gun "Figure" is a "model" with extra restrictions. Is the model in this unit?

To try and make my point, if the artillery in question was Assault 3 or Rapid Fire, then I might have given up on this.. However, it's Heavy, Salvo, or Ordinance then the second sentance of S&P seems to be telling me that units with S&P fire those weapons and count as not having moved even if they did move.

""A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons"."

The gun is a regular model in the unit that has extra restrictions and bonuses in place. People are getting hung up on the count as stationary part of the rule, however, they only count as stationary for the purposes of shooting weapons with the listed type. The Gun model adds on an additional restriction when moving that SnP does not override.

 Happyjew wrote:
The gun is a regular model in the unit that has extra restrictions and bonuses in place. People are getting hung up on the count as stationary part of the rule, however, they only count as stationary for the purposes of shooting weapons with the listed type. The Gun model adds on an additional restriction when moving that SnP does not override.

Where can I find that the S&P USR cannot override the restriction on Artillery?

The gun I'm thinking about for example's sake is Heavy 1. The second sentence of S&P seems to tell me that this heavy weapon model may shoot, counts as stationary even if it moved. It seems to be removing the very 'restriction' that artillery models have.

Eihnlazer wrote:
The artillery itself is a weapon that they have, or it has of and in itself.

You keep saying it has moved and cant shoot, but since it counts as stationary it actually has not moved as far as shooting is concerned.

But the Gun Model does not fire itself. The Gun Model is not a weapon that a Crew Model possesses, they are separate models. It has both moved and remained stationary. For Heavy, etc., it counts as stationary. For Artillery, it counts as having moved.

Do you believe that Artillery units can now assault even if a gun model is present so long as the Gun Model was fired?

"They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons"

 Rismonite wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The gun is a regular model in the unit that has extra restrictions and bonuses in place. People are getting hung up on the count as stationary part of the rule, however, they only count as stationary for the purposes of shooting weapons with the listed type. The Gun model adds on an additional restriction when moving that SnP does not override.

Where can I find that the S&P USR cannot override the restriction on Artillery?

The gun I'm thinking about for example's sake is Heavy 1. The second sentence of S&P seems to tell me that this heavy weapon model may shoot, counts as stationary even if it moved. It seems to be removing the very 'restriction' that artillery models have.

It's not. It does not say the weapon can shoot and counts as stationary if it moved.
It says that when they shoot with a Heavy weapon they count as stationary if they moved.

Shooting process - nominate a unit to shoot. It's an artillery unit that moved you cannot nominate the unit.
This is before even looking at weapon types and other special rules - SNP never comes into it.

an interesting read.

How many IC have the S&P rule anyway?

40k-noob wrote:
an interesting read.

How many IC have the S&P rule anyway?

Any Ork in Mega Armour. They also have access to Artillery units.
It's a good example to use.