Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Fragile wrote:
And you would be wrong. In order for an Artillery Unit to fire a weapon, it has to check it if moved in the previous phase. If that unit has SNP and is firing one of those types of weapons, then it counts as not having moved. Therefore it has permission to fire.

Under your interpretation, if there was non-Blast artillery would it be able to move and fire without SNP?
Extremely relevant question - from what I understand you're saying the answer would be yes.

 grendel083 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
And you would be wrong. In order for an Artillery Unit to fire a weapon, it has to check it if moved in the previous phase. If that unit has SNP and is firing one of those types of weapons, then it counts as not having moved. Therefore it has permission to fire.

The underlined part, how is it firing one of those weapons? It's not allowed to.
You're correct in that it is a requirement to count as being stationary. But it's a requirement that can't be fulfilled.

It's a strange logical loop.

You can't do something. But if you do it anyway, you're allowed.

You need to break a rule first, before you can count as not breaking a rule.
Problem is, you can't break a rule.

It is not allowed to fire because it moved. IF it has SNP then it did not move and can fire. This is no different than the application of SNP to Heavy weapons. According to your logic you would have to fire Snap shots with a heavy weapon on a SNP or Relentless model.

Fragile wrote:
It is not allowed to fire because it moved. IF it has SNP then it did not move and can fire. This is no different than the application of SNP to Heavy weapons.

Except you need to be shooting certain weapons before you can claim to be stationary, as you yourself pointed out just before. You can't just claim to be staionary, that's not what the rule says.

According to your logic you would have to fire Snap shots with a heavy weapon on a SNP or Relentless model.

Not at all.
Step one of the shooting process involes a step called "Who can Shoot" In this case Artillery can't, so the process stops here (tp quote "Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit's ability to shoot" - Artillery certainly applies here).
Roll to hit is step 3, at this point it is well established you are firing a heavy weapon, so the SAP rule has kicked in preventing you from having to use Snap Shots.

I know it is a minor point, but it has been bothering me sine page 1.

Certain people are claiming Artillery cannot fire after moving. This is incorrect. An artillery unit can fire after moving, however, the gun model cannot be fired.

 Happyjew wrote:
An artillery unit can fire after moving, however, the gun model cannot be fired.

A good point well made.

I'd also like to point out the "Who can Shoot" rule I mentioned is on a per model basis, not unit.
"Certain situations prevent a model from firing"
So my point still stands, the gun model is prevented from shooting. Therefore cannot be firing a heavy weapon in order to claim to be staionary.

Ok people, I think it's very clear.

In the rule book, Ordnance weapons cannot be fired by non vehicle models if they moved in the previous movement phase.

Artillery cannot shoot if it moved in the previous movement phase.

Slow and Purposeful is a special rule that allows a unit and or a model or a unit with a model with the Slow and Purposeful special rule to fire heavy, ordnance salvo weapons and count as stationary even if it moved in the previous movement phase.

I know, some of you will say, it doesn't say artillery. But artillery fires heavy and ordnance packages.

Slow and purposeful trumps both Ordnance and Artillery rules.

Unless there's a FAQ on it, it seems pretty obvious.

If it's "pretty clear" and "obvious" there wouldn't be a 4 page thread on the subject, would there?

I'm looking at S&P on pg 42. and the Artillery rules on pg 46. (I'm not typing out every bit of it because nobody else is and I few are reading it.)

I just can't find anything that tells me RAW that Artillery's restriction should somehow be treated differently from any other mechanic in the game that is affected by S&P. It's another model in the unit that also has S&P that is fired by crew that also have S&P.

-The unit has S&P the entire time the Independant Character is in the unit. It's not just a shooting based rule the unit is S&P the whole time.

-There is no exception made RAW that S&P somehow triggers 'when' you shoot (whoever that guy is, go read the rule it says "Can Shoot" pg 42.). You can shoot heavy.

-The crowd that is hungup on the comma in the second sentence of S&P. This comma is not some kind of if/then statement.

-Stationary, if you want to split hairs I can see people on the fence right here. If you are me and you are arguing that maybe Orkz should be allowed to do this then you want to believe stationary means "not moved". The game doesn't have a definition for this word anywhere. However the end of that sentence seems to directly imply permission to units that have shooting restriction based on movement. I can see some wiggle room for people saying this was intended to allow non-artillery that would be firing snapshots to be fired as full ballistic instead of being something artillery is allowed to do. The problem is it reads like it was written for artillery also.

It's probably because I'm a bias ork, but I don't see how it can be ruled against, there just isn't enough rules in the artillery section to imply that restriction is special enough that S&P can't apply.

Yes it's probably unintended and needs a FAQ. RAW is what this forum was for though right?

Let the grots fire the things while running wouldn't it just add to what is already a spectacular comedy? Imagine a Kannon being fired and just backpedaling over some grots and slamming into another gun then the Boss turning around screaming at everyone. It's certainly about as Orky as T-Shirt saves, D3 Loota Shots and fast open topped vehicles.

Rismonite, there are two rules in effect regarding Artillery.

Since the weapon is Heavy (or Ordnance) then if the firing model moves it must fire Snap Shots (or not at all). Since the gun model cannot be fired as a Snap Shot, then this rule forbids it from being fired.

Additionally, if the gun model moves at all, it cannot be fired. This is independent of the weapon type. Even if the weapon type in question was Salvo or Assault (both which can be fired after moving), the Artillery rules specifically forbid it.

SnP overrides the restriction put in place by the first part. Without specifically mentioning Artillery, it does not override the second part.

 Happyjew wrote:
Rismonite, there are two rules in effect regarding Artillery.

Since the weapon is Heavy (or Ordnance) then if the firing model moves it must fire Snap Shots (or not at all). Since the gun model cannot be fired as a Snap Shot, then this rule forbids it from being fired.

Additionally, if the gun model moves at all, it cannot be fired. This is independent of the weapon type. Even if the weapon type in question was Salvo or Assault (both which can be fired after moving), the Artillery rules specifically forbid it.

SnP overrides the restriction put in place by the first part. Without specifically mentioning Artillery, it does not override the second part.

I'm reading the artillery rule there is nothing that says the second sentence of S&P cannot affect artillery based on it being a 'independent weapon type' 'gun figure' 'special restriction' or anything else here. The unit has S&P as long as that Mega Armored Warboss is part of the unit and part of the perk is models with S&P can shoot a kannon like it was stationary and hadn't moved in the movement phase.

If it hasn't moved in the movement phase and is considered stationary, how has it moved?

 Rismonite wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Rismonite, there are two rules in effect regarding Artillery.

Since the weapon is Heavy (or Ordnance) then if the firing model moves it must fire Snap Shots (or not at all). Since the gun model cannot be fired as a Snap Shot, then this rule forbids it from being fired.

Additionally, if the gun model moves at all, it cannot be fired. This is independent of the weapon type. Even if the weapon type in question was Salvo or Assault (both which can be fired after moving), the Artillery rules specifically forbid it.

SnP overrides the restriction put in place by the first part. Without specifically mentioning Artillery, it does not override the second part.

I'm reading the artillery rule there is nothing that says the second sentence of S&P cannot affect artillery based on it being a 'independent weapon type' 'gun figure' 'special restriction' or anything else here. The unit has S&P as long as that Mega Armored Warboss is part of the unit and part of the perk is models with S&P can shoot a kannon like it was stationary and hadn't moved in the movement phase.

If it hasn't moved in the movement phase and is considered stationary, how has it moved?

The very first sentence of Shooting with Artillery "Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase" This has nothing to do with the weapon type being dragged around. If there was an Artillery weapon that was an Assault 20 weapon, if the gun model moves, then the gun cannot be fired. SnP deals with firing weapons of specified types and "Artillery Gun model" is not listed.

Well, if someone wants to argue that "counts as stationary" doesn't have the same consequences as not moving at all then I'll take my jink cover save on my monolith, please. And you can open the door to any other cheese that this interpretation might invite in.

Before I read the FAQ, I interpreted that "heavy skimmer", where heavy means that it counts as stationary even if it moved, negates the jink special rule. I see no reason why S&P shouldn't affect an artillery unit if it would have the same consequences for a unit that was armed with a heavy blast weapon.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Rismonite, there are two rules in effect regarding Artillery.

Since the weapon is Heavy (or Ordnance) then if the firing model moves it must fire Snap Shots (or not at all). Since the gun model cannot be fired as a Snap Shot, then this rule forbids it from being fired.

Additionally, if the gun model moves at all, it cannot be fired. This is independent of the weapon type. Even if the weapon type in question was Salvo or Assault (both which can be fired after moving), the Artillery rules specifically forbid it.

SnP overrides the restriction put in place by the first part. Without specifically mentioning Artillery, it does not override the second part.

I'm reading the artillery rule there is nothing that says the second sentence of S&P cannot affect artillery based on it being a 'independent weapon type' 'gun figure' 'special restriction' or anything else here. The unit has S&P as long as that Mega Armored Warboss is part of the unit and part of the perk is models with S&P can shoot a kannon like it was stationary and hadn't moved in the movement phase.

If it hasn't moved in the movement phase and is considered stationary, how has it moved?

The very first sentence of Shooting with Artillery "Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase" This has nothing to do with the weapon type being dragged around. If there was an Artillery weapon that was an Assault 20 weapon, if the gun model moves, then the gun cannot be fired. SnP deals with firing weapons of specified types and "Artillery Gun model" is not listed.

We both know we aren't this ignorant, I don't know why I don't just let this go. I know the rule isn't for artillery, it's just written such that it could be used for it. We are both standing on top this word 'stationary' that has no definition in this book and it's very easy to stand one side of the fence or the other on this issue because S&P's "Stationary" isn't specific about it's application to artillery if intended at all.

 Rismonite wrote:
We both know we aren't this ignorant, I don't know why I don't just let this go. I know the rule isn't for artillery, it's just written such that it could be used for it. We are both standing on top this word 'stationary' that has no definition in this book and it's very easy to stand one side of the fence or the other on this issue because S&P's "Stationary" isn't specific about it's application to artillery if intended at all.

I disagree. The way the rules are written, in order for one rule to override another, it needs to specifically mention that rule. For example, You cannot assault the turn you disembark from a vehicle, Assault Vehicle special rule specifically overrides this. If a model with a Heavy weapon moves, it must fire Snap Shots. Relentless specifically overrides this. If a unit is caught in a Sweeping Advance, it is removed as a casualty. ATSKNF specifically counters that.

Additionally, the rules don't define every single word. We don't need to break out a dictionary, because nobody is using stationary incorrectly. They are also not spelling it stationery, which is something completely different.

Of course the unit counting as being stationery while firing ordinance is rather funny to picture.

What I meant by define was I can use the word Stationary as "Counts for the purposes of artillery" or anything such. The fact that I have to go with webster is perhaps what I mean.

Also, how many Orkz have made Kannons from pencil sharpeners with the hole?

Btw you just made me reread half my posts on here to find out if I misspelled stationary like that :p

You can't move then shoot heavy, ordnance and salvo weapons at full ballistic skill.

But if you have relentless or slow and purposeful special rule, you use your full ballistic skill after moving in the same turn. Relentless and slow and purposeful count as if stationary.

What is hard to understand about the use of stationary?

Johnnytorrance wrote:
You can't move then shoot heavy, ordnance and salvo weapons at full ballistic skill.

But if you have relentless or slow and purposeful special rule, you use your full ballistic skill after moving in the same turn. Relentless and slow and purposeful count as if stationary.

What is hard to understand about the use of stationary?

Nothing at all.
What is so hard to understand about "it's irrelevant as the gun is forbidden from firing in the first place"?

This is a simple IF/ Then condition

If ( a heavy weapon moves) Then (it fires snap shots)
If (artillery moves) Then (it cannot fire).

SNP counts both as being stationary for the purposes of firing.

The application is the same for SNP. If you claim that Artillery cannot fire, then you are also saying that Heavy must snap shot.

Fragile wrote:
This is a simple IF/ Then condition

If ( a heavy weapon moves) Then (it fires snap shots)
If (artillery moves) Then (it cannot fire).

SNP counts both as being stationary for the purposes of firing.

The application is the same for SNP. If you claim that Artillery cannot fire, then you are also saying that Heavy must snap shot.

The underlined is incorrect. And you've again avoided the fact that your interpretation means that Heavy non-Blast Artillery would be able to fire, despite the rule specifically saying it can't.
Or that Assault/Rapid Fire artillery (perhaps there already is some in FW books) would be able to fire with no issues.

Considering that SNP does not address Assault or Rapid Fire, that argument is moot.

Fragile wrote:
Considering that SNP does not address Assault or Rapid Fire, that argument is moot.

It's not. It's just convenient for you to ignore the consequences of your interpretation.
I'm showing you it's incorrect. That's just one issue you refuse to address.

You havent shown anything other than to say a nonblast Heavy weapon can fire if it moved (without SNP). Your just doing a strawman argument.

For the purposes of firing a Hvy, Ord, or Sal weapon, you count as stationary even if you moved. Therefore bypassing your restriction of not firing because you moved.

Except you haven't bypassed it. What specifically gives you permission to override the Artillery rules? It is not being able to fire Heavy/Ordnance/Salvo. That has nothing to do with whether or not the gun model moved. Which is what forbids it from being fired.

Only if you're allowed to fire do you count as stationary. When you are told you cannot shoot, how are you getting to the point where you count as if you are stationary or not? Citation needed, as you have continually ignored this.

Fragile wrote:
You havent shown anything other than to say a nonblast Heavy weapon can fire if it moved (without SNP). Your just doing a strawman argument.

No, I'm not. I'm not pretending you're saying something - you have explicitly said it and I'm showing the consequence.

For the purposes of firing a Hvy, Ord, or Sal weapon, you count as stationary even if you moved. Therefore bypassing your restriction of not firing because you moved.

When you fire one of those, you count as stationary.
Do you have permission to fire? The artillery rules say no, you say yes. I wonder who I should trust... the rules or someone who is making things up.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only if you're allowed to fire do you count as stationary. When you are told you cannot shoot, how are you getting to the point where you count as if you are stationary or not? Citation needed, as you have continually ignored this.

This sounds an awfully like an "order of operation" issue.

One expressly forbids shooting after moving (artillery rule).

Another is a USR that determines heavy weapons "count as stationary" when firing.

O.o

It's confusing because the entire squad has S&P, by the time the shooting phase comes, those models haven't moved for all intent and purposes.

I'm leaning towards the USR overrides that artillery restriction.

And beside... who cares? You'd basically have a squad of T7 models walking 6" per turn. Whoopee-do.

That's my humble read...

 whembly wrote:
It's confusing because the entire squad has S&P, by the time the shooting phase comes, those models haven't moved for all intent and purposes.

For the millionth time - that's not what the rule actually says.

And beside... who cares?

People who play by the rules?

rigeld2 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
It's confusing because the entire squad has S&P, by the time the shooting phase comes, those models haven't moved for all intent and purposes.

For the millionth time - that's not what the rule actually says.

And beside... who cares?

People who play by the rules?

Okay.. .maybe my head is stuck around the general rule for firing heavy weapons.

Does it list out what happens if you move a heavy weapon? (ie, what counts as stationary or not?)

EDIT: *click* after thinking about, now I believe you're right. Artillery forbids shooting if you move, full stop. In the follow shooting phase, you don't even have an artillery-gun to shoot.

 whembly wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
It's confusing because the entire squad has S&P, by the time the shooting phase comes, those models haven't moved for all intent and purposes.

For the millionth time - that's not what the rule actually says.

And beside... who cares?

People who play by the rules?

Okay.. .maybe my head is stuck around the general rule for firing heavy weapons.

Does it list out what happens if you move a heavy weapon? (ie, what counts as stationary or not?)

Does what list out?
SNP does not say "those models haven't moved for all intent and purposes." At all.

I know...

See my edit above.