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 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
an interesting read.

How many IC have the S&P rule anyway?

Any Ork in Mega Armour. They also have access to Artillery units.
It's a good example to use.

Just Orks? Guess it wont come up very often then.

For the record, I am of the mind that yes, they can fire. But only just barely in that camp.

mainly for the reason that "count as" has always been the same "equal to" in this game.
so an artillery piece that "counts as" stationary is the same or equal to an artillery piece that IS stationary.

40k-noob wrote:
Just Orks? Guess it wont come up very often then.

I play Orks, was just the first example that came to my head
And both Big Gunz units and Mega Armour are commonly used in Ork forces at the moment.

mainly for the reason that "count as" has always been the same "equal to" in this game.
so an artillery piece that "counts as" stationary is the same or equal to an artillery piece that IS stationary.

Counts as = is that's fine, but it's not a gneral allowance to always counts as being stationary. They count as stationary ONLY when shooting the weapons listed

I'm sure there's some random Eldar gun that makes a unit count as being in Dangerous Terrain if they move. Now you wouldn't use the SAP rule to claim you didn't move would you? To say you count as being stationary?
Only when shooting a weapon from the list can you count as being stationary, and if you can't shoot at all, that rule can't even kick in.

right, I was only taking into account the Shooting phase.

The way I see it is this:
in the Shooting phase, check to see if the artillery piece has moved, yes it moved, but S&P tells me to count is as Stationary and therefor I treat it as having not moved, thus it can be fired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
as for Eldar.....grrrr.
their "platform" weapons all have the relentless rule, seriously?!?
As if they need more help with shooting.

40k-noob wrote:
right, I was only taking into account the Shooting phase.

The way I see it is this:
in the Shooting phase, check to see if the artillery piece has moved, yes it moved, but S&P tells me to count is as Stationary and therefor I treat it as having not moved, thus it can be fired.

But you only get to use the rule when shooting the specified weapon (I'll use heavy in all future examples, make typing easier).

If you look at the shooting sequence:
Step 1 Nominate a unit to shoot
"Choose one of your units that is able to fire this turn.."

Right here at step one the artillery rules prevent you from nominating the unit. It can't shoot. You can't even nominate the unit to shoot, so the SAP rule never kicks in as you have to be shooting.
The weapons and rules don't come into effect until Step 2, when you start checking ranges.

as for Eldar.....grrrr.
their "platform" weapons all have the relentless rule, seriously?!?
As if they need more help with shooting.

I've no idea, I was talking about the eldar victim, not the Eldar's ability to shoot.

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
right, I was only taking into account the Shooting phase.

The way I see it is this:
in the Shooting phase, check to see if the artillery piece has moved, yes it moved, but S&P tells me to count is as Stationary and therefor I treat it as having not moved, thus it can be fired.

But you only get to use the rule when shooting the specified weapon (I'll use heavy in all future examples, make typing easier).

If you look at the shooting sequence:
Step 1 Nominate a unit to shoot
"Choose one of your units that is able to fire this turn.."

Right here at step one the artillery rules prevent you from nominating the unit. It can't shoot. You can't even nominate the unit to shoot, so the SAP rule never kicks in as you have to be shooting.
The weapons and rules don't come into effect until Step 2, when you start checking ranges.

as for Eldar.....grrrr.
their "platform" weapons all have the relentless rule, seriously?!?
As if they need more help with shooting.

I've no idea, I was talking about the eldar victim, not the Eldar's ability to shoot.

The is not entirely accurate. You most certainly cannot nominate the unit as the crew can snap fire their own weapons (pistols, etc) then S&P kicks in, treat the unit as stationary, then one of the crew now can fire the Heavy weapon that is part of the Artillery unit.

Example, Big Gunz with grot crew.
Grot crew can shoot pistols snap firing after moving. so you nominate that unit, then the S&P rule should kick in.

40k-noob wrote:
The is not entirely accurate. You most certainly cannot nominate the unit as the crew can snap fire their own weapons (pistols, etc) then S&P kicks in, treat the unit as stationary, then one of the crew now can fire the Heavy weapon that is part of the Artillery unit.

Example, Big Gunz with grot crew.
Grot crew can shoot pistols snap firing after moving. so you nominate that unit, then the S&P rule should kick in.

Grot krew have no pistols. So can't be nominated.
You're searching for an obscure loophole to get around this now, that's normally a good indication that's not how the rules work

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
The is not entirely accurate. You most certainly cannot nominate the unit as the crew can snap fire their own weapons (pistols, etc) then S&P kicks in, treat the unit as stationary, then one of the crew now can fire the Heavy weapon that is part of the Artillery unit.

Example, Big Gunz with grot crew.
Grot crew can shoot pistols snap firing after moving. so you nominate that unit, then the S&P rule should kick in.

Grot krew have no pistols. So can't be nominated.
You're searching for an obscure loophole to get around this now, that's normally a good indication that's not how the rules work

I dont know what grot wargear is, it was just an example.

In any case the IC will more than likely have a weapon. Say Warboss with twin linked shoota in Mega Armor joins the big gunz unit.


And it is not an obscure loophole, it is directly in the S&P rule: Correction this is the Artillery Unit Type rules
"The crewmen firing the gun cannot fire any weapons they are carrying, while the other crew members (and any Independent Characters in the unit) are free to fire their side arms"

 Happyjew wrote:
Right, so you override the restriction on firing Snap Shots with Heavy weapons, the lesser shot/half range with Salvo, and the cannot fire Ordnance restrictions. Where does that override the restriction on firing an Artillery Weapon if the Gun moves?

Context of the rule is that Artillery cannot fire Snap shots, which is the reason they cannot fire if they move. There is no 2 parts to that rule.

Fragile wrote:
Context of the rule is that Artillery cannot fire Snap shots, which is the reason they cannot fire if they move. There is no 2 parts to that rule.

Incorrect.

p46 wrote:Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots.

Your assertion is that if an Artillery was Assault or Rapid Fire it could still fire if it moved. That's demonstrably incorrect.
It cannot be fired - it also cannot make Snap Shots. This means that even if it's not a blast weapon, it can't shoot Flyers. Or fire Overwatch.

List me an assault or rapid fire Artillery weapon.

Fragile wrote:
List me an assault or rapid fire Artillery weapon.

Irrelevant. What you're doing is requiring the rules to fit all currently available weapons.
That's not how you look at rules. You make them fit all cases.

And it would still affect a Heavy weapon that wasn't Blast. I don't know if the Eldar ones fit that description or not.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
List me an assault or rapid fire Artillery weapon.

Irrelevant. What you're doing is requiring the rules to fit all currently available weapons.
That's not how you look at rules. You make them fit all cases.

And it would still affect a Heavy weapon that wasn't Blast. I don't know if the Eldar ones fit that description or not.

Not irrelevant because Artillery are not Assault or Rapid Fire, which they wouldnt be by definition. That sentences parses to the reason they cannot fire if they move is because they cannot fire Snap Shots, which Heavy,... etc. have to do.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
List me an assault or rapid fire Artillery weapon.

Irrelevant. What you're doing is requiring the rules to fit all currently available weapons.
That's not how you look at rules. You make them fit all cases.

And it would still affect a Heavy weapon that wasn't Blast. I don't know if the Eldar ones fit that description or not.

Not irrelevant because Artillery are not Assault or Rapid Fire, which they wouldnt be by definition. That sentences parses to the reason they cannot fire if they move is because they cannot fire Snap Shots, which Heavy,... etc. have to do.

A stationary, non-blast artillery shooting at a flyer would have to fire Snap Shots. Nothing to do with movement.
That is also barred due to Artillery rules. Even SAP wouldn't help there.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
List me an assault or rapid fire Artillery weapon.

Irrelevant. What you're doing is requiring the rules to fit all currently available weapons.
That's not how you look at rules. You make them fit all cases.

And it would still affect a Heavy weapon that wasn't Blast. I don't know if the Eldar ones fit that description or not.

Not irrelevant because Artillery are not Assault or Rapid Fire, which they wouldnt be by definition. That sentences parses to the reason they cannot fire if they move is because they cannot fire Snap Shots, which Heavy,... etc. have to do.

Artillery is a unit type, not a weapon type. There's no "by definition".
And you're ignoring that only Heavy Blast weapons cannot snap fire - your assertions would mean that a Heavy 1 weapon would be able to fire normally, which is explicitly denied by the actual rule I quoted.
The sentence does not parse that way - it's actually extremely incorrect to state that. The correct way of saying what you want it to is simply to state "Artillery cannot fire snap shots." That's not what the rule says at all.

rigeld2 wrote:

Artillery is a unit type, not a weapon type. There's no "by definition".

Read the descriptors on what Artillery weapons are. "So large and cumbersome that they are usually mounted on vehicles..." The very opposite of Assault and Rapid Fire. GW makes the Heavy or Ordnance. There is no reason to address them as Assault weapons or RF because they dont make them those classifications. (I'm sure FW will at some point.)

And you're ignoring that only Heavy Blast weapons cannot snap fire - your assertions would mean that a Heavy 1 weapon would be able to fire normally, which is explicitly denied by the actual rule I quoted.

I've asserted no such thing, your making up stuff now

The sentence does not parse that way - it's actually extremely incorrect to state that. The correct way of saying what you want it to is simply to state "Artillery cannot fire snap shots." That's not what the rule says at all.

That is how the sentence parses.

If you count as stationary for shooting purposes, you are not firing Snap Shots, and can hence fire.

 Happyjew wrote:
Artillery has two separate restrictions (mostly because they are almost all Heavy weapons).

1. If you move, you must fire Snap Shots when firing a Heavy weapon.
2. If the gun moves it cannot be fired.

1 has nothing to do with 2. S&P overrides 1 but not 2.

This .

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Artillery has two separate restrictions (mostly because they are almost all Heavy weapons).

1. If you move, you must fire Snap Shots when firing a Heavy weapon.
2. If the gun moves it cannot be fired.

1 has nothing to do with 2. S&P overrides 1 but not 2.

This .

S&P says:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons."

So lets look at an Artillery Unit that has been joined by an IC with S&P.

Unit is Artillery and the Joined IC does not change that.
The Unit has a model with the S&P USR. Therefor the USR applies to the entire unit.
The Artillery unit moves in the Movement Phase.
In the Shooting Phase, the Artillery unit elects to shoot.
The S&P rule says that "They (the unit) can, however shoot.....counting as stationary EVEN if they moved in the previous Movement phase."
so what does stationary mean? It means (for game purposes) not moving.
The rule states to count the unit as stationary EVEN if the unit did in fact move in the previous Movement phase, so the BRB is explicitly telling the player to IGNORE any previous movement and count the unit as having NOT MOVED.

So how then does S&P not override 2 again?

Because the "Cannot shoot if the gun model moved" is a specific rule (IOW an advanced rule) and as such cannot be overriden without specifically being mentioned.

 Happyjew wrote:
Because the "Cannot shoot if the gun model moved" is a specific rule (IOW an advanced rule) and as such cannot be overriden without specifically being mentioned.

For the record, S&P is also an "advanced rule" even more so than Unit Type Artillery.

but besides that, so you are saying that this part:

counting as stationary EVEN if they moved in the previous Movement phase

does not count as specific to you?

40k-noob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Because the "Cannot shoot if the gun model moved" is a specific rule (IOW an advanced rule) and as such cannot be overriden without specifically being mentioned.

For the record, S&P is also an "advanced rule" even more so than Unit Type Artillery.

How so? SnP applies to any and all units that have said special rule (even if they don't have any weapon that can be affected by it). Artillery rules apply only to Artillery.

but besides that, so you are saying that this part:

counting as stationary EVEN if they moved in the previous Movement phase

does not count as specific to you?

I'm saying it is not specific enough. I'm saying there are a couple of different rules involved and each part needs to be overriden. The guns cannot be fired if the gun model moves. It does not matter if the weapon in question is Assault, Heavy or Salvo. If the gun model moves, it cannot be fired. The gun model cannot be fired as Snap Shots. This means that if the model moves (as right now they are all Heavy/Ordnance) then they must fire Snap Shots, which they cannot do. SnP allows a unit to shoot Heavy/Ordnance weapons as if they were stationary. This overrides the snap shot restriction. Your conclusion breaks if GW ever releases an Artillery weapon that is Assault or Rapid Fire, where as mine works well regardless of the type of weapon.

 Happyjew wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Because the "Cannot shoot if the gun model moved" is a specific rule (IOW an advanced rule) and as such cannot be overriden without specifically being mentioned.

For the record, S&P is also an "advanced rule" even more so than Unit Type Artillery.

How so? SnP applies to any and all units that have said special rule (even if they don't have any weapon that can be affected by it). Artillery rules apply only to Artillery.

but besides that, so you are saying that this part:

counting as stationary EVEN if they moved in the previous Movement phase

does not count as specific to you?

I'm saying it is not specific enough. I'm saying there are a couple of different rules involved and each part needs to be overriden. The guns cannot be fired if the gun model moves. It does not matter if the weapon in question is Assault, Heavy or Salvo. If the gun model moves, it cannot be fired. The gun model cannot be fired as Snap Shots. This means that if the model moves (as right now they are all Heavy/Ordnance) then they must fire Snap Shots, which they cannot do. SnP allows a unit to shoot Heavy/Ordnance weapons as if they were stationary. This overrides the snap shot restriction. Your conclusion breaks if GW ever releases an Artillery weapon that is Assault or Rapid Fire, where as mine works well regardless of the type of weapon.

If you want to go the "if" route then if GW changes the Artillery unit type yada yada yada,......lets not go down that rabbit hole.

Lets stick to what we actually have to work with.
It boils down to this:
"If the gun model moves, it cannot be fired." VS "counting as stationary EVEN if they moved in the previous Movement phase."

To me, it goes likes this since the Movement happens first in the order of things in this game, the fact that S&P comes into play in the Shooting following the movement phase and S&P states to ignore the previous phases movement, it seems pretty obvious that it should override the movement restriction.

Sorry, but you keep only half quoting the SAP rule.
It specifically only counts as stationary when shooting.

If you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you count as when shooting.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Artillery is a unit type, not a weapon type. There's no "by definition".

Read the descriptors on what Artillery weapons are. "So large and cumbersome that they are usually mounted on vehicles..." The very opposite of Assault and Rapid Fire. GW makes the Heavy or Ordnance. There is no reason to address them as Assault weapons or RF because they dont make them those classifications. (I'm sure FW will at some point.)

So you're using fluff as a reason to ignore the fact that your stance breaks rules?
Okay, but that doesn't make it valid.

And you're ignoring that only Heavy Blast weapons cannot snap fire - your assertions would mean that a Heavy 1 weapon would be able to fire normally, which is explicitly denied by the actual rule I quoted.

I've asserted no such thing, your making up stuff now

Your stance is that the snap shot (and inability to fire) statement is solely because Heavy, etc. must snap shot when moving, and blasts can't be fired as snap shots. Correct?
Assuming I understand that stance correctly, a non blast Heavy weapon, using your stance, would be able to snap shot when moving. An action that is literally specifically disallowed.

The sentence does not parse that way - it's actually extremely incorrect to state that. The correct way of saying what you want it to is simply to state "Artillery cannot fire snap shots." That's not what the rule says at all.

That is how the sentence parses.

If you count as stationary for shooting purposes, you are not firing Snap Shots, and can hence fire.

The restriction is not "can't fire because no snap shots". The restriction is can't fire because moved.

40k-noob wrote:
S&P says:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons."

So lets look at an Artillery Unit that has been joined by an IC with S&P.

Unit is Artillery and the Joined IC does not change that.
The Unit has a model with the S&P USR. Therefor the USR applies to the entire unit.
The Artillery unit moves in the Movement Phase.
In the Shooting Phase, the Artillery unit elects to shoot.
The S&P rule says that "They (the unit) can, however shoot.....counting as stationary EVEN if they moved in the previous Movement phase."
so what does stationary mean? It means (for game purposes) not moving.
The rule states to count the unit as stationary EVEN if the unit did in fact move in the previous Movement phase, so the BRB is explicitly telling the player to IGNORE any previous movement and count the unit as having NOT MOVED.

So how then does S&P not override 2 again?

Red part is simply wrong, it cannot elect to shoot if it is not allowed to shoot per Artillery rules.

What comes after if completely right, but unfortunately does not apply as the red part stops you from going any further in that system...

The wording on artillery is that the gun model cannot be fired if it moves at all in the movement phase. Remember it is not the gun that fires but a crew member that fires the gun. Nothing in slow and purposeful changes the restriction on the gun model it cannot be fired if it moved. That restriction is specific to gun models in artillery units and has nothing to do with the type of weapon mounted on them. The crew has no permission to use the gun if the gun was moved.

 grendel083 wrote:
Sorry, but you keep only half quoting the SAP rule.
It specifically only counts as stationary when shooting.

If you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you count as when shooting.

Shooting is the only thing we are talking about. You claim you cannot shoot because you moved. SNP says that if you are shooting you count as not having moved. If you did not move, then you can shoot.

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Sorry, but you keep only half quoting the SAP rule.
It specifically only counts as stationary when shooting.

If you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you count as when shooting.

Shooting is the only thing we are talking about. You claim you cannot shoot because you moved. SNP says that if you are shooting you count as not having moved. If you did not move, then you can shoot.

But unless you can actually shoot, you can't count as stationary. Shooting is part of the requirements to use it, and that's something they can't do.

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Sorry, but you keep only half quoting the SAP rule.
It specifically only counts as stationary when shooting.

If you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you count as when shooting.

Shooting is the only thing we are talking about. You claim you cannot shoot because you moved. SNP says that if you are shooting you count as not having moved. If you did not move, then you can shoot.

I highlighted the part where your interpretation is flawed.
If you are shooting, SNP will indeed apply. However you "cannot be fired if they moved at all" seems pretty clear that the "if" will not happen.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Sorry, but you keep only half quoting the SAP rule.
It specifically only counts as stationary when shooting.

If you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you count as when shooting.

Shooting is the only thing we are talking about. You claim you cannot shoot because you moved. SNP says that if you are shooting you count as not having moved. If you did not move, then you can shoot.

I highlighted the part where your interpretation is flawed.
If you are shooting, SNP will indeed apply. However you "cannot be fired if they moved at all" seems pretty clear that the "if" will not happen.

And you would be wrong. In order for an Artillery Unit to fire a weapon, it has to check it if moved in the previous phase. If that unit has SNP and is firing one of those types of weapons, then it counts as not having moved. Therefore it has permission to fire.

Fragile wrote:
And you would be wrong. In order for an Artillery Unit to fire a weapon, it has to check it if moved in the previous phase. If that unit has SNP and is firing one of those types of weapons, then it counts as not having moved. Therefore it has permission to fire.

The underlined part, how is it firing one of those weapons? It's not allowed to.
You're correct in that it is a requirement to count as being stationary. But it's a requirement that can't be fulfilled.

It's a strange logical loop.

You can't do something. But if you do it anyway, you're allowed.

You need to break a rule first, before you can count as not breaking a rule.
Problem is, you can't break a rule.