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remove the dirge caster option and give its ability to slaaneshi marked vehicles, dirge casters are about as slaaneshi as it get

 Blackskull wrote:
remove the dirge caster option and give its ability to slaaneshi marked vehicles, dirge casters are about as slaaneshi as it get

DERP! That one's so obvious I'm a bit humbled to have not thought about it for the last 2 days.

I also noticed I neglected to include an option in the Chosen entry, So I had to update the spread. Fixed now.

Maverike_prime wrote:


Ever play the 3.5 edition World Eaters? Guess what, they were the lamest army in the game because all you had to was run a tank around about 8" away from them, cause... oh they can't shoot because they had to run, and they had to charge the Tank because it was the closest enemy unit. Oh wait, you could never actually claim to be close combat with a vehicle so... yeah I get to shoot you while you're banging on the tank, and it keeps moving every turn, and you keep getting shot every turn... and you can't do anything else because you're army is nothing but a bunch of frothing stupid lunatics that honestly have no business surviving.

And you're going to tell me that's Kharn? Seriously?

As for the 2/4/6 armor.... yeah. I disagree with your logic. Artifier armour has been shown taking more resources to maintain. So yes when he had the resources of the legion to maintain his armor and equipment, sure he can continue to use artificer armor. But as you've said, he's not a World Eater anymore so he doesn't have those resources to maintain the artificer armour... so yeah chances are he switched to power armour. And same point with the Iron halo.

Din't have any problems in 3.5 with my WE army, and also din't seem like the worst of the loot.

You din't want them to charge the tank they could hurt or waste time, you used your own Rhinos to cover them up and block LoS on the ennemy bait, you could only assault what you could see.

And if it was a problem, then you somply had to give a Powerfist+Axe of Khorne to the champ, for half the price of now, and with the discount of Champs because of Sacred Numbers, its was cheap.

Now i agree that WE are more then just foaming lunatics.

As for the Artificer armor, i disagree, we had Deamon Armors, and in the current dex there is Fleshmetal, although its for Warpsmiths and Oblits only right now, i don't see any reasons as to not make this available for other characters for 20pts.

And a special character that is limited to a 5++ save, its ridiculous.

Now the WHirlwind mechanic is bad, and for the last time also Khorne=/= God of CC, Khorne is the God of WAR, wich engulf every aspect of it, shooting included.

the only upgrade Kharn's really need, is a better save/or invul save, and EW, for a price hike of 30 or 40pts, i would'nt mond that.

Also the idea of making Dirgecaster SLaanesh only, thats the worst idea i've ever heard.

Leave it as it is, and add bonuses or something else given the God to wich the vehicle is dedicated.

You would have the basic Dirgecaster for 5pts and then for 10-15pts a Dirgecaster that spouts a Gods specific Hymn/prayers/litany, that would have an effect on ennemies/friendly modls with the Gods approriate mark.

You want to fix 1ksons? Give the sorc options. You want to fix Khorne? Marks for vehicles! Mark of khorne on a vehicle makes it an assault vehicle. Boom. Who would not take em then? I was personally offended at how death company was better every way and for cheaper than khorne zerkers. At minimum they should be equal. Or how about instead of extra attacks mark of khorne says you must always charge even if other rules say you cannot. Such as exiting vehicles and deepstrike. Now warp talons are good with khorne

 Quientin wrote:
You want to fix 1ksons? Give the sorc options. You want to fix Khorne? Marks for vehicles! Mark of khorne on a vehicle makes it an assault vehicle. Boom. Who would not take em then? I was personally offended at how death company was better every way and for cheaper than khorne zerkers. At minimum they should be equal. Or how about instead of extra attacks mark of khorne says you must always charge even if other rules say you cannot. Such as exiting vehicles and deepstrike. Now warp talons are good with khorne

So.... you've not even read the stuff I posted.... in the first post in regards to exactly what you're talking about and just going to wishlist here?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Khorne Berzerkers]

Nurgle Plague Marines

Great work so far really liking a lot of your proposed changes. Just something I noticed under the "All is Dust" rule for the 1ksons it says that any weapon with an AP of 3 will cause instant death regardless of strength but in their profile they only have one wound so that seem like kind of a dud rule.
Also rules as written AP 1 and 2 wouldn't inflict instant death so maybe it should be Ap3 or lower? Unless this is just an old rule you have forgotten to take out

 1000thSon wrote:
Great work so far really liking a lot of your proposed changes. Just something I noticed under the "All is Dust" rule for the 1ksons it says that any weapon with an AP of 3 will cause instant death regardless of strength but in their profile they only have one wound so that seem like kind of a dud rule.
Also rules as written AP 1 and 2 wouldn't inflict instant death so maybe it should be Ap3 or lower? Unless this is just an old rule you have forgotten to take out

Eh blarg! I forgot to change that. Previously the Thousand Sons had 2 Wounds while the Plague Marines had Feel No Pain. Thanks. I'll fix that in a bit.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 1000thSon wrote:
Great work so far really liking a lot of your proposed changes. Just something I noticed under the "All is Dust" rule for the 1ksons it says that any weapon with an AP of 3 will cause instant death regardless of strength but in their profile they only have one wound so that seem like kind of a dud rule.
Also rules as written AP 1 and 2 wouldn't inflict instant death so maybe it should be Ap3 or lower? Unless this is just an old rule you have forgotten to take out

Eh blarg! I forgot to change that. Previously the Thousand Sons had 2 Wounds while the Plague Marines had Feel No Pain. Thanks. I'll fix that in a bit.

Perhaps you should still list what revision version they are because until he made that post I didn't know that they had been updated.

This makes me want to play CSM.

 Clefty wrote:
This makes me want to play CSM.

I'll take that has a positive.


Now I have a different top to bring up: The Chaos Commander.

I want a Lt figure back in the Chaos Army. Lessor Lords who are not as well established as a Lord proper. Specialized commanders who bring an otherwise unique unit element to the Lords army, until the day that the commander replaces the Lord that is anyway.

A Chaos Commander is an aspiring Chaos Lord who has yet to achieve that particular plateau of status. Sometimes referred to as a Lesser Lord, a Minor Lord, or a Lieutenant, Chaos Commanders are generally seen in service of more established Lords acting as some form of second in command, even if it’s only that keep a rival commander in check.

Much like the Lord that they are in service to, Chaos Commanders are ambitious individuals who crave the power and prestige that comes with command. Some rise to a position of authority through skill and guile; manipulating their opponents to destroy themselves so that they may claim the spoils. Other rise to their position through subversion, whispering in the ear of a more powerful lord so that lord will marginalize the rival or sacrificing them leaving the commander to consolidate their power. Some commanders will rise in authority through sheer brute force, battering aside those that challenge, dominating those that will serve and killing those that will not.
Very often, a Chaos Commander will be an operational expert in a manner of warfare that is in opposition to the Lord’s preferred method of war. A Siege Master Lord, who is an expert in fixed emplacements and ranged bombardment, may make use of a Strike leader that can sow discord and chaos in the enemy lines with the usage of Bikers and Raptors. A Commander who has affinity for Daemon strikes may ally with a Lord who has command of Heavy armour detachments.

Less established Commander may bring the service of an elite hard hitting unit to the command of a Lord and gain favor with that lord. A team of specialist Chaos Space Marines under the command of an experienced commander can be used to sow terror amongst the enemy lines, conduct an assassination of an opposing commander, or destroy critical supply lines crippling an enemy force in its tracks. But Commander still aspire to become Lords themselves, and it is only a matter of time until they will make a bid for the power of a Lord, more often not at the expense of the lord themselves.

So... what do I make the Chaos Commander unit wise?

Like old 3.5 lieutenants.

Chappy/Captain stats with two wounds for 45 points base, with acces to all wargear.

Maybe also something like can take one per Lord in the detachement and doesn't count as HQ.

With a Grim Aura feature, something like all chaos models in a 6/12 " of him reroll failed moral checks and add +1 to their combat resolution.

Right now thats what i can come up with

50pts naked and 2 wounds and lots of options for either personal benefit or army buffs, mainly lots of options though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw you need to stop asking people not to wishlist, you never know if there may be a good idea they have that you didn't think of.

Also your khorne bezerkers have slow and purposeful.

 Formosa wrote:
50pts naked and 2 wounds and lots of options for either personal benefit or army buffs, mainly lots of options though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw you need to stop asking people not to wishlist, you never know if there may be a good idea they have that you didn't think of.

Also your khorne bezerkers have slow and purposeful.

No, I really don't need to stop asking people to not wishlist here. I went through a modicum of effort to lay out the problems that I saw with several units to provide a basis of what I was working to correct and I feel very justified in asking others do the same.

"Give the sorcerer options" does not accomplish that.

"The sorcerer is insultingly under equipped and has pitiful few options to address this short coming. The Random nature of the Psychic power tables limits his strategic abilities and means we cant really count on getting anything to help shore up those problems. All of the psychic tables he has access to only gives abilities that are offensive, though Iron arm is an exception to this. It's a 1 in three chance option. He really needs to get more options to deal with this, something that we can outfit him with in order to deal with massed units as opposed to hoping we get Molten Beam, which we then need to have to spent the extra 25 points for the extra mastery level to use."
[Note I posted the above passage as an example, I don't actually agree with it]


That is actually something productive. it explains why the poster feels there is a problem with the unit and gives some indication of how to go about addressing it.

"give sorcerer options" is just another way of saying "I want more!!!!!!! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!"

As for the Berzerkers.... yeah. That's what I get for building on top of previous files. Thanks for the catch. Fixing it now.

Is there any chance of bringing back generic daemon weapons or some form of non-unwieldy AP 2 CCWs that can be taken by guys of any alignment (unlike the Axe that makes you -1 WS). I mean Chaos Lords lose a lot of their intimidation when terminators always get their armour save to the point where I am almost certain that Lucius loses to a generic tactical terminator in a fight the majority of the time. I mean Chaos Lords should look big and scary, yet they are effectively useless against 2+ unless they take a power axe or fist, which cripples the main benefit of units with the mark of Slaanesh.

7th Edition Suggested Updates And Amendments

with the 7th edition drop warp points are useless and meaning the sons could do with some minor tweaking tzeentch powers as witch fires don't limit them to one each as all psykers can fire continuously.

tweaks
thousand sons grant 1 extra warp dice per 5 models for use in the casting phase ONLY, you cannot use them for the purposes of dispelling

other notes
in a weird twist we need to improve the heldrakes as faq and 7th edition have nerfed it to the point of uselessness, the turkey is dead, and we must inject life into it.

for those uninformed I have bad news
drakes weapons are now hull mounted so no 360 fire
vector strikes are now 1 hit against ground targets at ap2 and d3 hits against flyers

in short its no longer worth the 170pts cost tag

Up to 180* arc str6 torrent ap3, 5++ it will not die, deamon, 170pts, that's still damn good, add on d3 vector strike vs flyers and fmc, ap2, single vector strike against ground troops, I'm not seeing why this thing doesn't cost more personally.

Honestly what could you add to that list to make it better?

um 90* front arc, read hull weapons

No. The helTurkey is not dead, if anything it became more fair. I've been arguing against it's ability to putt blast enemies since day 1. It's weapon is in it's mouth! Why was it able to fart on me and eject a flaming gout of fire? No, the Hell duck is still perfectly viable and more fair now. I'm not touching that thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
Up to 180* arc str6 torrent ap3, 5++ it will not die, deamon, 170pts, that's still damn good, add on d3 vector strike vs flyers and fmc, ap2, single vector strike against ground troops, I'm not seeing why this thing doesn't cost more personally.

Honestly what could you add to that list to make it better?

please, don't ask that question. Someone will inevitably say it needs missiles because of whatever reason, or that it needs a 3+ jink save because they failed a roll once and it crashed and burned, or that it needs to be AV 14 because it's supposed to be a flying land raider or that it needs to be 90 points because..... hell I donno. I hate the helTurkey and am frankly glade it got nerfed the way it did.

ok we will leave the turkey...(and wow what a sulk maverike)

but 7th changed things and we should alter a few things to balance out

daemon prices for example got hit really hard, they were meh for their price previously now they are almost unusable.

for those that don't know
FMC rules changed, now the turn you switch flight modes you cant charge, and the prince wasn't that hard to kill to begin with and now he has to wait a whole turn before charging, black mace prince got benched.

Smash is trade all attacks for one Sx2 attack that rerolls pen, more often than not you will probable fail to pen or miss and with vehicle damage chart changes the chances of you knocking out an ork truck are sketchy

challenges changed, this is actually a bad thing for the prince, normally I would challenge on my turn and paste the sergeant leaving the unit locked in combat (and hence unable to be shot at), by prince would then slaughter the squad in my opponent's turn before moving on to the next one during mine. now excess attacks carry over to the squad meaning I delete the opponents unit and then get shot to pieces as a grounded price is a dead one

the mighty have hit rock bottom, thoughts?

Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

 Blackskull wrote:
now excess attacks carry over to the squad meaning I delete the opponents unit and then get shot to pieces as a grounded price is a dead one

Eh, I consider it a mixed bag. At least a blob of guardsmen can't issue challenges against your daemon prince to keep him tied up for the entire game.

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

Yeah getting hit square in the face with a new set of rules really kind of derailed my efforts radically so. So now I basically have to start over, again. As for the Radical changes, or lack there of, to what do you refer?

If only GW codexes were this awesome

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

You should definitely give the HH a go, playing Legions in even regular 40k is quite enjoyable. I personally am building a 1k Thousand Sons chapter, I plan on every 1k points being dedicated to one of the nine cults of Prospero.

 Clefty wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

You should definitely give the HH a go, playing Legions in even regular 40k is quite enjoyable. I personally am building a 1k Thousand Sons chapter, I plan on every 1k points being dedicated to one of the nine cults of Prospero.

if I had the ability to play more then 4-5 games a month I would, but sadly I don't. and the couple people I can game with aren't interested in Horus Heresy games. So I can read the books... and... um... read the books. That being said, Legions wouldn't be Chaos Renegades. They would be Chaos Legions. Which is a different book then the one I'm focusing on right now.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

You should definitely give the HH a go, playing Legions in even regular 40k is quite enjoyable. I personally am building a 1k Thousand Sons chapter, I plan on every 1k points being dedicated to one of the nine cults of Prospero.

if I had the ability to play more then 4-5 games a month I would, but sadly I don't. and the couple people I can game with aren't interested in Horus Heresy games. So I can read the books... and... um... read the books. That being said, Legions wouldn't be Chaos Renegades. They would be Chaos Legions. Which is a different book then the one I'm focusing on right now.

Not necessarily, the Legions were widely broken up into Warbands after the shattering of Horus. I would simply apply the Legion Specific Legiones Astartes special rule with additional content for the evolution of their Legion after the HH.

 Clefty wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

You should definitely give the HH a go, playing Legions in even regular 40k is quite enjoyable. I personally am building a 1k Thousand Sons chapter, I plan on every 1k points being dedicated to one of the nine cults of Prospero.

if I had the ability to play more then 4-5 games a month I would, but sadly I don't. and the couple people I can game with aren't interested in Horus Heresy games. So I can read the books... and... um... read the books. That being said, Legions wouldn't be Chaos Renegades. They would be Chaos Legions. Which is a different book then the one I'm focusing on right now.

Not necessarily, the Legions were widely broken up into Warbands after the shattering of Horus. I would simply apply the Legion Specific Legiones Astartes special rule with additional content for the evolution of their Legion after the HH.

irony abound, that.... exactly what I already did the Legionary Squad.

irony abound, that.... exactly what I already did the Legionary Squad.

I can't seem to find what the traits do though. They should still have the portion of the Legiones Astartes special rule that always allows them to attempt to regroup. I would also give the Legionaries a Close Combat weapon, alongside switching the unit sizes for Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Legionaries.

 Clefty wrote:

irony abound, that.... exactly what I already did the Legionary Squad.

I can't seem to find what the traits do though. They should still have the portion of the Legiones Astartes special rule that always allows them to attempt to regroup.

Now see here's one of the points of difference that I was to emphasis between Codex: Chaos Renegades and Codex: Chaos Legions.

Chaos Renegades are not so much an army, as they're a conglomeration of separate groups that are following this particular lord/commander/sorcerer today. Yes, the Lord probably has his own cadre of warriors that are being supplemented by those 2 squads of Khorne Berzerkers and the Warp Smith that is bringing his Daemon engines to war alongside him. But they're only there because the lord is able to offer something that the group in question wants. A chance for slaughter for the Berzerkers, a scroll of information that leads to some lost artifact of Nurgle for the Plague Marines, a partial STC template the Warp Smith is seeking.... you get the idea. But that's as far as their loyalty goes to this particular lord. The whole time the question of "Is this worth that payment?" will be in play. If that particular groups feels that the battle is turning against them, they may just decide to leave the lord to his fate. So, no. I do not feel that there should be such to always attempt to regroup amongst the Chaos Renegades

Chaos Legions is a different story. Here you actually have an army with a commander that the army answers to. You have detachments of officers who are loyal to their commander and their purpose. Sure, there are some elements that are harder to control then others, Berzerkers when they get into the mood, Thousand Sons when there isn't a Sorcerer present to control them, ect. But for the most part, a Chaos Legion army is.... well an army. If the commander is killed, there is an order of command that is followed, and there's a direction of purpose. "The Commanders' been killed, We must achieve the objective to validate that death!" So they would push forward and look to the next officer in question for command. So yeah, Legions would have the ability to attempt to regroup regardless of other circumstances.

As for the traits... I... I honestly don't know how I can possibly spell out their effects any more clearly then they already are.
Will of Iron: unit has Adamantium will and Tank Hunter.
-What is unclear there?
Terror in the Night: the Unit has fear and night vision.
- what's the question about this?
Master of the Battlefield: The unit has Outflank and acute senses (Though this probably needs to be changed with the release of 7th)
- the unit has those two special rules, What's unclear here?
A Knife in the night: The unit has Scout and Stealth.
-The unit has Scout and stealth. How can I make that clearer?
Burn it all- The unit gets to re-roll failed to wounds with Flamer weapons.
-The unit... gets to re-roll wounds with flamer weapons. Seriously, how is this unclear?
A keen eye: it gets to re-roll snap shots, and to-hit rolls of 1.
-okay... what is unclear about this?

Seriously, what do you mean you don't understand what the traits do?

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

irony abound, that.... exactly what I already did the Legionary Squad.

I can't seem to find what the traits do though. They should still have the portion of the Legiones Astartes special rule that always allows them to attempt to regroup.

Now see here's one of the points of difference that I was to emphasis between Codex: Chaos Renegades and Codex: Chaos Legions.

Chaos Renegades are not so much an army, as they're a conglomeration of separate groups that are following this particular lord/commander/sorcerer today. Yes, the Lord probably has his own cadre of warriors that are being supplemented by those 2 squads of Khorne Berzerkers and the Warp Smith that is bringing his Daemon engines to war alongside him. But they're only there because the lord is able to offer something that the group in question wants. A chance for slaughter for the Berzerkers, a scroll of information that leads to some lost artifact of Nurgle for the Plague Marines, a partial STC template the Warp Smith is seeking.... you get the idea. But that's as far as their loyalty goes to this particular lord. The whole time the question of "Is this worth that payment?" will be in play. If that particular groups feels that the battle is turning against them, they may just decide to leave the lord to his fate. So, no. I do not feel that there should be such to always attempt to regroup amongst the Chaos Renegades

Chaos Legions is a different story. Here you actually have an army with a commander that the army answers to. You have detachments of officers who are loyal to their commander and their purpose. Sure, there are some elements that are harder to control then others, Berzerkers when they get into the mood, Thousand Sons when there isn't a Sorcerer present to control them, ect. But for the most part, a Chaos Legion army is.... well an army. If the commander is killed, there is an order of command that is followed, and there's a direction of purpose. "The Commanders' been killed, We must achieve the objective to validate that death!" So they would push forward and look to the next officer in question for command. So yeah, Legions would have the ability to attempt to regroup regardless of other circumstances.

As for the traits... I... I honestly don't know how I can possibly spell out their effects any more clearly then they already are.
Will of Iron: unit has Adamantium will and Tank Hunter.
-What is unclear there?
Terror in the Night: the Unit has fear and night vision.
- what's the question about this?
Master of the Battlefield: The unit has Outflank and acute senses (Though this probably needs to be changed with the release of 7th)
- the unit has those two special rules, What's unclear here?
A Knife in the night: The unit has Scout and Stealth.
-The unit has Scout and stealth. How can I make that clearer?
Burn it all- The unit gets to re-roll failed to wounds with Flamer weapons.
-The unit... gets to re-roll wounds with flamer weapons. Seriously, how is this unclear?
A keen eye: it gets to re-roll snap shots, and to-hit rolls of 1.
-okay... what is unclear about this?

Seriously, what do you mean you don't understand what the traits do?

Oh! No, I mean I didn't see what the traits where. The hyperlink labeled Chaos Marine traits wasn't working for me.